TASK FORCE ON COMMUNITY SCHOOL
                                
                   DISTRICT GOVERNANCE REFORM
                                
    Task Force on Community School District Governance Reform
Developing recommendations regarding the powers and duties of the
              New York City community school boards
                                
                                
            Hostos Community College, Savoy Building
                     120 East Walton Avenue
                         Grand Concourse
                         Bronx, New York
                                
                   Thursday, December 19, 2002
                           10:20 a.m.
						   
						   
						   
                                
MEMBERS OF THE TASK FORCE

ASSEMBLYMAN STEVEN SANDERS, CO-CHAIR

ASSEMBLYWOMAN TERRI THOMSON, CO-CHAIR

ASSEMBLYWOMAN AUDREY PHEFFER

ASSEMBLYMAN ROGER GREEN

ASSEMBLYMAN PETER RIVERA

ASSEMBLYMAN JOHN LAVELLE

YANHEE HAHN

ROBERT DE LEON

KATHRYN WYLDE

RENEE C. HILL

C. BUNNY REDDINGTON

ROBIN BROWN

VIRGINA KEE

ERNEST CLAYTON

GERALD LEVIN

JACK FRIEDMAN

ROSE MC KENNA

JANE ARCE-BELLO

CASSANDRA MULLEN

PENELOPE KREITZER





                       LIST OF SPEAKERS

                                                   PAGE

Adolfo Carrion
     Bronx Borough President                        16

Lorraine Cortes-Vazquez
     President Hispanic Federation                  53

Oliver Koppell
     Councilman Bronx                               67

Natalie Gomez-Velez
     Bronx Representative
     New York City Panel for Educational
     Policy                                         87

Dorothea Marcus
     Community School Board 10                     102

Betsy Combier
     President Parent Advocates Organization       114

Herman Francis
     Community School Board 7                      120

Albert V. Tuitt, Sr.
     Special Committee on Internal Affairs,
     NAACP                                         130

Gladys Rosenblum
     Executive Director
     Loisaida, Inc.                                148

Robert Press
     Parent Activist                               162

Mimi Lieber
     Founder & Chair
     Literacy, Inc.                                175

Connie Blake
     Education Chair
     NAACP                                         192


Arlene Trehene
     CS-4 Title I
     Chairperson                                    215

Alex Betancourt
     Deputy Executive Director
     ASPIRA of New York, Inc.                       235

Jeffrey Dinowitz
     Assemblyman                                    250

Jean DePesa
     Parent Advocate                                265

Josette Santana
     President
     PTA P.S. 246                                   271

Lucretia Jones
     Mothers on the Move                            278

Carmen Maldanado-Santos
     Mothers on the Move                            287

Kenneth Jackson
     PTA President & S.L.T. Chair                   291

Ted Weinstein
     Executive Vice President
     Community School Board 10                      306

Cordell Schachter
     President
     Community School Board 10                      317

Silky Martinez
     Parent Organizing Consortium                   327

Francis Calderon
     Parent Organizing Consortium                   327

Oswald White
     Parent Organizing Consortium                   334

Jessie McDonald
     Parent Organizing Consortium                   338

               
   Altagracia Cruz
        President PTA, P.S. 60                         350
   
   Yolanda Gonzales                                    352
   
   
   Richelle Braithwaite
        New York Youth At Risk, Inc.                   356
   
   Gwendolyn Primus
        President Community School Board 9             365
   
   David Francis
        Community Board 10                             366
   
   Neyda Franco
        Community Advocate
        Pueblo En Marcha                               370
   
   Debra Young
        Vice President
        PTA P.S. 142                                   375
   
   Almada Tramel
        Vice President
        President's Council District 7                 377
  
  
  

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  All right.  We're going

  to begin.  You could all find your seats.

                 Good morning, everyone.  Thank you members

  of the Task Force for being here at our third Public

  Hearing.  My name is Steve Sanders.  I am the Chairman,

  the Co-Chair, of this Task Force on Community School

  District Governance Reform.  I'm also Chairman of the

  Assembly Education Committee.

                 Normally seated next to me would be Terri

  Thomson who is the other Co-Chair of this Task Force.

  Terri Thomson had shoulder surgery yesterday, just

  yesterday.  She is listening to these proceedings.  We

  have been able to connect Terri from her convalescent,

  convalescing bedside, so she will be able to hear all of

  these proceedings and less than 24 hours after her

  surgery, she's a real trooper for being able to be at

  least up and around, and she wanted to make sure she

  heard all of the testimony.  So she will be listening in.

                 And she said, good morning, in case you

  didn't hear her.  She won't be able to participate

  verbally because we were unable to do that.  But she will

  be listening in to all of the testimony.

                 Before the Task Force members give a brief

  introduction of themselves, I just want to give a brief

  introduction as to the origins of this Task Force, the

  work that we have done thus far and the work that lies

  before us.  As many of you know, in June of this year,

  the State Legislature passed a law that provided the

  rather sweeping and traumatic overhaul of the New York

  City Public School System.

                 Much of the changes that were made and

  enacted at that time provided greater centralization of

  authority, greater authority to the Mayor, greater

  authority to the schools' Chancellor, greater authority

  to the schools' Superintendents.  The legislation did a

  lot of other things as well, which I won't go into at

  this time.  But one of the other measures, important

  measures in that law was the abolition of the local

  community school boards that have existed for a little

  over three decades.

                 However, the legislature in phasing out

  the school boards as of June 30th of this year, did not

  want to leave a void and did not want to leave

  communities and school districts without representation

  at the school district level.  So part of that

  legislation provided for the creation of this Task Force

  and the requirement on the Task Force to hold public

  hearings in every borough of the city, to have other

  meetings and other informational initiatives to provide

  the Task Force members with as much information and the

  broadest amount of input from the public so that we could

  formulate a proposal and recommendations as the law

  requires to replace the local community school boards

  with some other form of representation from the community

  and input from parents who live in the community and who

  send their children to local schools.

                 We are required by law to make our

  recommendations to the Governor and to the State

  Legislature no later than February the 15th.  And I can

  assure not only the Task Force members, but the public

  that this Task Force will in fact meet those deadlines,

  those obligations.  We will formulate a proposal by

  February 15th.  But the important part of this process is

  the public input.

                 Last week we held our first two public

  hearings, last Tuesday in Manhattan, followed by a second

  hearing last Thursday in Queens.  Today we are proud to

  be in the borough of the Bronx and we are grateful for

  Hostos College for having made its wonderful facilities

  available to this Task Force.

                 After the conclusion of today's hearing,

  early in January, on Monday, January the 6th, we will be

  holding a public hearing on Staten Island and we will

  conclude the public hearing phase on Thursday, January

  the 16th in Brooklyn.  Even though these hearings are

  organized as a law requires in each borough, individuals

  are certainly free to testify in whatever borough they

  wish to appear and be heard.

                 Moreover, there is a record of these

  public hearings being kept.  We have a -- we're lucky to

  have Eddie back today, who is keeping a careful record of

  these proceedings.  There was a public record.  It will

  be available to the public at some point in time, and it

  will be the information that is presented to this Task

  Force and digested by the members of this Task Force that

  will help to guide us in our deliberations with respect

  to how to provide adequate and we hope better community

  representation at the school district and the school

  level.

                 We have divided each of these hearings,

  incidently, into two sessions.  The first session for

  each of these hearings begins in the morning at or about

  10:00 to run until the late afternoon, 4:00 area.  And

  then we have a second session in each borough that begins

  at 6:00 in the evening.  Obviously, we have tried, as

  best as we know how, to make these hearings as accessible

  as possible for the public.  We know that many people who

  may want to testify are working moms and dads, or just

  the working men and women who want to make their views

  known and the evening hours, often times, is more

  convenient.  So we have tried to arrange our schedule to

  be available as much as we possibly can.

                 I would just make mention of the fact, two

  things in conclusion before I ask the members of the Task

  Force to give a brief introduction of themselves.  I know

  that you all have a lot to say.  This is a big issue.

  This is an important issue.  This is education and

  there's nothing more important than education for our

  children, for the future of the city of New York.

                 However I do have to ask you to all try

  very hard to confine your remarks to about five minutes.

  We have a lengthy witness list.  There are other people

  who perhaps have not signed up in advance, who we will

  try to accommodate as the day goes on.  So I will ask

  you, plead with you to try to keep your remarks to about

  five minutes.  If you have gone beyond that amount of

  time, I will give you a gentle sign and ask you to please

  conclude.  So please do not detect that as any

  disrespect.  It's just that we need to keep the day

  moving as best as we can.

                 And finally, let me just make this final

  mention.  I'll probably be repeating this during the

  course of the day.  Our mission and our parameters, as

  established by the State Legislature in June is not to

  make a decision as to whether the current local community

  school board structure ought to remain or be replaced.

  That is not our purview.  That decision was already made

  by the State Legislature.

                 Our requirement and our mission is to find

  a structure, to find an entity, to find a community

  representation that we hope will be enhanced.  But it is

  to replace the local community school boards.  I know

  we've already heard testimony from a number of people who

  would like the school boards to remain, and the only

  point that I am making is that that decision has already

  been made.  So we are focusing our attention on how we

  will replace, revise, reform the local community school

  boards and I would also ask that you try to direct your

  recommendations, your comments, your observations to how

  it is best to replace the local community school boards.

                 Let me now start to my far left, your

  right, and ask each of the Task Force members if they

  would just give a -- identify themselves and any brief

  comment they'd like to make.

                 MS. MULLEN:  Cassandra Mullen, I'm from

  Howard Beach in Queens.

                 MS. ARCE-BELLO:  Jane Arce-Bello from this

  great borough of the Bronx, a Community Activist.

                 MS. MC KENNA:  Rose McKenna from the

  Bronx.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Hi, my name is Jack

  Friedman.  I spent ten years as a Community School Board

  member in northeast Queens, and most importantly I'm a

  parent two children that go to New York City Public

  Schools.

                 MR. LEVIN:  I'm Jerry Levin, the retired

  CEO of AOL/Time Warner.  My family and I are committed to

  public education in New York City, most particularly in

  the Bronx, and in the Bronx at Taft High School.

                 HON. LAVELLE:  I'm John Lavelle.  I am an

  Assemblyman from Staten Island and a member of the

  Education Committee in the New York State Assembly.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  My name is Ernest Clayton,

  President of the United Parents Associations of New York

  City.  I have six sons in the public school system.  I,

  myself, am a product of the public school education and a

  graduate of CUNY.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  I'm Peter Rivera.

  I'm a member of the State Assembly from the Bronx.  I'm

  very active in school governance.  I was part of the

  original School Governance Task Force.

                 MS. KEE:  Good morning.  I'm Virginia Kee

  and I'm the founding member of the Chinese-American

  Planning Council, which is the largest service

  organization for Asian-Americans.  I've been on the New

  York City Commission of Human Rights and I've been a

  teacher for 34 years in the classroom.

                 MS. REDDINGTON:  Good morning.  My name is

  Bunny Reddington from Staten Island.  I currently serve

  as Vice Chair on District 31's Community School Board.

                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:  Good morning.

  Assemblywoman Audrey Pheffer and I represent South

  Queens.

                 MS. WYLDE:  Kathy Wylde, I'm from

  Brooklyn, and I'm President of the New York City

  Partnership, which is a citywide business leadership

  organization.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Robert DeLeon, Manhattan

  East Harlem parent activist, former parent activist.

                 MS. HAHN:  Yanghee Hahn, retired human

  rights specialist of New York City Commission of Human

  Rights, currently serving the Executive Vice President of

  Korean-American Association of Flushing.

  

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  I should also make

  mention the fact we have a Spanish translator who is

  here.  So if -- she is seated in the back to my right.

  So if there -- and I will make also this announcement

  periodically during the day.  So if there are either

  members of the audience or witnesses who need the

  services of a translator, we are geared up for that.

                 And I also want to thank at the outset

  Sandra Ruiz, who is Chief Executive to the President of

  this fine institution and Cesar Baretto.  Mr. Baretto is

  there in the back.  Thank you very much for the great job

  that you've provided in setting up this wonderful

  facility.  You have made us all feel so very welcome and

  right at home hear in the heart of the great, great

  borough of the Bronx.

                 And having made mention of the great,

  great borough of the Bronx, it is my pleasure to

  introduce our first witness of the day, the great, great,

  Bronx Borough President, Adolfo Carrion.

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Good morning

  and welcome to the mainland, United States.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We in Manhattan

  sometimes refer to it as upstate, you know.

                 HON. CARRION:  Chairman Sanders and

  Assemblyman Rivera, all members of the Task Force, Terri

  Thomson, my good friend who is on the phone, good morning

  and thank you for this opportunity.  I think this is

  probably the most important conversation that we could be

  having as a city because I believe that the single, most

  important function of government is to ensure that we

  education so that we can allow full participation in this

  democracy and full competition in this economy.  And in

  order to achieve that, there has to be a full engagement

  by the communities and ultimately they are the customers

  of this enterprise.

                 I want to welcome the Task Force to the

  Bronx.  This is the single most important issue for us in

  the borough of the Bronx, given where our standing is in

  terms of outcomes, educational outcomes for our children.

  I have a personal stake in this, because I have four

  bambinos.  Three of them are old enough to be in public

  school.  Olivia is seven.  Sarah is ten today.  Today's

  her birthday, and Rachel is   13.  And my son, A.J. is

  four years old and about to enter and I am a big

  supporter of public education as a principal of this

  style of democracy that we've set up for ourselves.

                 What I'm going to do is, I'm going to

  share with you some of my prepared text and then I'm

  going to talk to you a little bit from the heart.  The

  prepared text is sort of a compilation of my thoughts

  over the last year and a half, year maybe.  I will share

  with you that just last Saturday morning we were a few

  blocks away from here, having a discussion about school

  governance with Assemblyman Rivera, other members of the

  New York State Assembly from the Bronx, other Bronx

  leaders, Bronx parents and asking ourselves what is the

  best construct for engagement of the communities in the

  educational process.  And I have a -- I presented a

  proposal to the group that was in principle accepted.  I

  think that there was a consensus built around the concept

  that I'm going to present to you, and I'm very excited

  about that.

                 Having been a school teacher, being a

  parent, and being a public official, elected and I was a

  district manager of a Community Planning Board for five

  years.  So, I've looked at the -- and being a customer of

  the education system, I'm a product of the public school

  system, P.S. 111, Junior High School 142 and Harry Truman

  High School.  So, I've been in relationship to our

  education system in many ways.  Let me read from my

  prepared text.

                 Thank you for this opportunity to present

  testimony on the future of public participation in the

  governance of the New York City Public Schools.  The

  middle 1960's struggle for decentralization in New York

  City was about the representation of people who could not

  get to the table on policy decisions affecting their

  children.  The battle was won in the creation of

  independently elected Community School Boards.  The

  implied promise of the elected school boards was that

  they would engage parents and make education work better

  for communities.              In 2002, we are facing what

  I consider the unfinished business of that effort by

  creating a means of making that engagement effective.  We

  need parents to be prepared to represent themselves and

  exercise their options in the best interest of their

  children in the schools.  We must confront this question

  of meaningful representation at a time when the public

  confidence in our schools is at an all time low, and the

  need for excellent schools has never been greater.  We

  are faced with the challenges of eroding financial

  support from Washington and Albany and City Hall as they

  attempt to hid the structural deficits that have been

  created, especially after the aftermath -- in the

  aftermath of September 11, 2001.

                 Our challenge is very basic.  How do we

  gain the active participation of parents on behalf of

  their children?  How do we meaningfully engage the

  parents of our public school children in the

  representation of the real and pressing issues

  of schools and communities?  And then how do we carry the

  information from those schools to the halls of the City

  Council, The Office of the Mayor, the Executive Chamber

  of the Governor and the Halls of Congress so that the

  remaining elected officials understand that all of our

  actions must be transparent, accountable, and responsive

  and will be evaluated in the context of how they improve

  the outcomes for our children.

                 I have a simple proposal to promote

  transparency, accountability, and responsiveness.  First,

  I propose the creation of District Parent Councils made

  of parents -- made up of parents elected by parents to

  focus the issues of representation and parental

  engagement on improving outcomes for our children.

  Second, I propose the establishment of Borough Boards for

  Education Planning to integrate planning for schools with

  planning for communities and to create an independent

  means of articulating the needs of schools in communities

  to the Mayor and the City Council.

                 Let me just parenthetically say that as a

  professional urban planner, I think what has happened by

  default, I don't think that it was really by design.  I

  think it was by default, that education planning has

  occurred in a vacuum.  The conversation about education

  has occurred in a vacuum.  We sort of isolated it away

  from the civic life and the community life and the

  planning life of the city.  So we have this planning

  board structure in the City of New York.  We have 59

  districts that they're engaged in the budget priorities,

  land use decisions.  They engage with the local officials

  in the conversation about the quality of life in their

  neighborhoods.  But never in that conversation is there

  an insertion, I think it certainly not by design, an

  insertion of the education process as a part of that

  engagement.

                 You know, I think it's sort of isolated.

  We do community planning and development and economic

  development and municipal service delivery and then we do

  education.  And I think what we need to do is we need to

  have an integration of civic life, neighborhood life, and

  the conversation about our education system and the

  outcomes has to be connected to the reality of who we are

  as a city, how we behave economically, and how we behave

  in terms of our land use decision, and how we physically

  develop the city, and how we deliver services, and who's

  getting the services, and the budget priorities in other

  areas and how they impact the preparedness of that

  community to be educated.

                 And so, it's more of a holistic approach

  and here's what I mean.  And I'm going to move away from

  the text because it's -- I speak better without a

  prepared text.

                 Here's the structure.  It's from the

  bottom up.  We have District Parents Councils.  The

  District Parent Councils are made up of all the elected -

  - at the school level elected parents that are elected by

  other parents in their schools.  They constitute this

  District Parents Council.  This District Parents Council

  then has a representative.  We break up the school

  districts from 32 school districts to 59 school

  districts.  The 59 school districts then become

  commensurate with the Community Planning Districts, the

  Community Planning Boards.

                 And if you go back to the original idea, I

  think it was in the Lindsey Administration where there

  was this attempt to put -- to reverse the top down

  planning that had been occurring with Bob Moses.  To say

  to communities, we want to respect you.  We want you to

  be fully engaged.  And the way you're going to be fully

  engaged is you're going to determine the destiny of your

  neighborhood by participating in the planning process,

  and the land use decisions, in the budget priority

  decision.  You're going to tell City Hall how you think

  your neighborhood should develop.

                 I think what we can do is take that model

  with all it's pluses and some of its minuses, and there's

  always room for improvement, and superimpose our

  education districts over those municipal service

  districts.  Those planning boards then would have an

  education committee that was more meaningfully

  participating in the process.

                 But we would have separate, separate

  District Parent Councils.  Each of those District Parent

  Councils would have a representative that would sit on a

  Borough Board.  The Borough Board would be chaired by the

  Borough President who has statutory powers over municipal

  service delivery, who has participation in the budget

  process, who works with every elected official so has to

  have the view, the bird's eye view of the entire borough

  and all the interests of all the communities in that

  borough, not just any single district.  So there is a

  balancing of interests that happens here.

                 And that Borough Board would then be made

  up of what I call the major stakeholder, and the major

  stakeholder are members of industry.  In the Bronx for

  instance, one in four workers works in the health

  industry.  There is no real continuum right now between

  the education system and the needs of that industry.  I

  think some of the universities are doing, certainly

  Hostos is doing it and they churn out nurses, and they

  churn out techs and they end up in the health industry.

  But we need to create a more clear connection between the

  preparation of people in the education system and the

  needs of the market place.  So you would have the

  stakeholder of industry in that borough sitting on this

  Borough Board.

                 You would also have the Community Boards

  sitting on this Borough Board.  You would also have the

  representatives of all the District Parent Councils

  sitting on this Borough Board.  And then you would have

  another layer in this structure which is the three

  superintendents for the three levels of the school

  system.

                 Here's what I'm suggesting in this

  structure.  Every one of those Education Planning

  Districts that are now commensurate with the Community

  Planning Board Districts would each have an Education

  Administrator.  They would run the day to day operations,

  similar to what the Deputy Superintendents now do.  For

  purposes of education planning, zoning, facilities

  planning, education policy, you would have a

  superintendent for the borough for elementary schools, a

  superintendent for the borough for middle schools, and a

  high schools superintendent.  We already have a high

  schools superintendent.  So that each of these

  superintendents of the three levels would represent the

  entire borough, all the children of the borough at this

  Borough Board level and would work with each of the local

  administrative superintendents at the local level.

                 This would allow in effect a filtering up,

  or a trickling up of the education priorities of

  communities.  It would allow us on a borough level to

  coordinate the efforts of how we construct schools, where

  they get constructed, our resources being distributed

  fairly, because one of the things that happens now and

  there's fights between districts all the time, why is one

  district getting more than another district?  When you

  have a borough level structure, you can look at the

  entire borough.  You can look at the interests of every

  single neighborhood, every community and ensure that in

  the end, every child is getting what they need.

                 Let me talk a little bit about the role

  and the responsibility of this Borough Board, and I know

  I've gone over my five minutes.  The idea here is for

  this board to do what the local school boards used to do,

  without the baggage of the local politics and with full

  representation from all interested parties.  This body

  would incorporate education into the overall planning

  responsibilities of the Office of the Borough President.

                 We're responsible as Borough Presidents

  for a good number of things, certainly to play chief

  executive and balance the interests and work with every

  elected official.  We mostly do it in land use and budget

  planning.  It ought to be integrated into -- education

  ought to be integrated into that.

                 This body would prepare and submit an

  annual borough educational needs statement for inclusion

  in the Mayor's budget, with the input from the school

  leadership teams, through the local superintendents and

  the local parent councils that sit on the Borough Board.

  This body would make recommendations on enrollment

  planning, zoning, facilities planning, school safety and

  of course, the budget.

                 The Department of Education and the Mayor

  would be required to respond in writing at the same level

  of detail that the recommendations are made and I think

  that we could statutorily make that happen so that it's -

  - they're bound, just like we're bound in the budget

  process and we're bound by the uniform land use review

  procedure in the land use process, where there are

  certain steps that absolutely have to happen, certain

  official responses that have to come back from the

  administration so we can build that into the details of

  an legislation.

                 This body would oversee the organization

  and training of parents throughout the borough and I

  think that that's key.  This body would bridge the

  educational community with the surrounding community, and

  that's where I'm talking about the stakeholder.  The

  labor community, the major industries, the major

  institutions in every one of the boroughs should be

  engaged fully in the discussion about the education of

  our children.  Because ultimately, those are the people

  that will either become the assets to our economy and the

  participants in those businesses, or they will be the

  people who will be the burdens on society because they

  were not prepared to engage in this democracy and to

  engage in this economy.

                 This group would support the needs of the

  school as part of the larger community, and that's what I

  mean about the planning context and of course, it would

  facilitate partnerships between employers, businesses,

  schools and community organizations.  So it sort of ties

  things together.

                 I believe that we have a unique

  opportunity right now to improve something that

  originally started out correct, and over time -- I

  believe over time it has failed in some cases miserably

  and in some neighborhoods it has actually worked, School

  Boards have worked.  But I think for the most part,

  across the city, we saw a very small percentage of the

  adult population that was eligible to vote or just the

  adult population with kids in the schools participating.

  I think the number has come in around three percent.

                 In summary, I propose a simple strategy

  for effective engagement:  the creation of manageable

  districts, and we know that smaller is better, manageable

  districts; the organization of parents at the district

  level, who represent themselves, represent individual

  schools; and the creation of an instrument for planning

  at the borough level for educators, planners, and

  parents, all focused on making schools work for the

  children in their borough.

                 If we can do this, we will have created a

  powerful tool of accountability and transparency.  We

  will have ensured the organization of parents and we will

  have accomplished meaningful participation -- the right

  decisions, in the right hands; the right accountability

  in the right place.

                 I submit this to you respectfully and hope

  that you take it into serious consideration.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Borough President,

  thank you very much for that very thoughtful and

  obviously very well thought out presentation.  You'll be

  able to supply copies, I'm certain, to the Task Force so

  we can --

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  If you don't

  have them already -- you should have had them, but if you

  don't have them already, you will have them very, very

  shortly.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Great.  And I suspect

  there may be a few questions that the Panel Members have.

  Let me just advise the members, we need to keep our

  questions short and to the point and ask the witnesses to

  keep their answers equally pretty focused, so that we can

  not fall too far behind in the schedule today.

                 Jane?

                 MR. LEVIN:  Thank you, Mr. Borough

  President -- oh, I'm sorry.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  I'm sorry.  I think I

  recognized Jane and then Mr. Levin, excuse me.

                 MS. ARCE-BELLO:  Thank you, Borough

  President for your testimony and for your leadership on

  numerous issues on behalf of children and families in the

  borough of the Bronx.

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Thank you.

                 MS. ARCE-BELLO:  I have one question.

  What does the relationship between the school leadership

  and teams and any of the parts of the governing structure

  that you've laid out?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Well the

  school leadership teams would be obviously part of the

  discussion about the priorities of any individual school.

  That individual school is represented by a parent leader

  who sits on that District Parent Council.  You know, I

  think that we can fine tune this structure to address

  meaningful participation at any level.  But the gist of

  it, the essence is to ensure what was originally fought

  for in decentralization, which was that parents have

  meaningful involvement.

                 There's a sense that parents in the end

  have not had the meaningful involvement.  They've been

  sort of guests at the school.  They've been looked upon

  as a nuisance.  The -- and I will say this on the record,

  and my friends at the United Federation of Teachers may

  squawk about this.  But there has been some pushing away

  by administrators and teachers of parents and saying,

  "Oh, God, there they come again."

                 And what we ought to be doing is pulling

  this village together and that village includes

  everybody, including the business community and the labor

  community.

                 MS. ARCE-BELLO:  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay, Mr. Levin.

                 MR. LEVIN:  Drawing on your own rich

  history, could you articulate the process for

  establishing the structure that you've identified,

  election versus appointment, how that might work and in

  considering that, how do you keep the political process

  out of something that should be substantive and

  educational?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Well I think

  procedurally, the parents get elected at the local school

  level so that there is this organic sort of coming up of

  leaders in that school community who would participate at

  the borough level.

                 There is a self selection at the school

  level, at the community level.  There is an appointment

  by the elected official that is charged with overseeing

  the borough for the other members of that Task Force.

  But there's also by default, representatives on that -- I

  said Task Force, on that Borough Board that are there by

  virtue of their position.  So if you have the Borough

  Superintendent for elementary schools, for middle schools

  and for high schools, they are automatically there.

                 Then the question becomes one of who else

  should be at the table.  We have a health industry that

  is huge here.  So, we'd have one or two representatives,

  maybe from the teaching university hospital, one from a

  major public hospital.  We have the food industry here.

  There's 20 some odd thousand employees in that industry.

  We probably ought to have somebody from that industry at

  the table.  Other major institutional players should be

  at the table -- the labor community, the people who build

  the city, they should be part of this conversation.

  Because ultimately there are some kids who are going to

  enter the work place as trades people.  And that should

  come into play in the conversation about education.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. DeLeon.

                 MR. DE LEON:  What role if any do you see

  the UFT playing at any of these levels?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  I think where

  the UFT has the most meaningful participation is at the

  school leadership team level, where you're setting

  priorities about the school community, the school

  culture, what happens in the school building.  And as I'm

  sitting here, I'm thinking that there should be -- when I

  mentioned the labor community, there should be borough

  UFT representative on that Borough Board.

                 This is something that is elastic at this

  point and I'm looking for -- I'm really looking for input

  into this concept that of a borough structure.  I think

  we have the major pieces.  So I do see the UFT at those

  two levels, the local -- very local school leadership

  team and the borough level.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  I believe we've been

  joined by Assemblyman Roger Green from Brooklyn.

  Assemblyman Lavelle.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  Good morning.

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Good morning,

  how are you?

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  Fine, it's good to

  be here.  This concept of the Borough Boards is a good

  idea.  You currently have Borough Boards, do you not?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  We have the

  Borough Board under the rubric of the Community Planning

  Boards.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  I guess my question

  is somewhat like an appreciating question.  How would the

  representatives from like labor be selected?  The only

  ones that I see that are being elected are the parents.

  And then how many parents would be on that?  Like I mean,

  was it going to be one parent or was there going to be an

  additional number of parents.  When we say labor, do we

  mean other than UFT?  Like would be take people from the

  Central Labor Council?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Absolutely,

  yeah.  When I mention the trades, for instance,

  construction trades --

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  And business, I mean

  would we allow the Chamber of Commerce to select the

  people or would that be just a political decision on the

  part of the Borough President?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Well, you

  know, I think that there should be -- there could be, I

  should say, because we haven't figured out to that level

  of detail.  But there could be a special commission set

  up by each Borough President in consultation with elected

  officials in that county to select the different

  stakeholder, and there could be a process.  I think there

  should be some measures of the level of engagement of any

  industry in any borough.

                 So I mean in the Bronx, it could be health

  care, because it's one in four workers that work in

  health care.  It's the place where most workers are

  needed.  In another borough, it could be something else.

                 I think that what we have here is a

  concept based on something that I believe works well,

  especially when we make important decisions like land use

  decisions where you have to go through a public hearing

  process and everybody has an opportunity to be involved

  in that hearing process.

                 We have this Planning Board structure.

  How many parents would be on the Borough Board?  That

  would be the exact number of parents that there are of

  the number of districts.  So in the case of the Bronx, we

  have 12 Community Planning Districts.  So there would be

  one parent representative from each of those Planning

  Districts.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  That's an additional

  question I had was on the Planning Districts themselves.

  You said there were 59?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Fifty-nine in

  the city.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  Well has there ever

  been thought on the part of the city to realign them so

  that they're equal to the Council representation?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Every -- well

  no.  Every ten -- every census, we're supposed to take a

  look at these municipal service districts and make sure

  that they align with the organic nature of neighborhoods.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  Does that mean that

  the Council Districts do not?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  And that they

  have relatively the same population so that we can manage

  service delivery in the city.  We have not changed the

  districts, the district lines for the last twenty some

  odd, maybe even since they -- a little bit after they

  were created.  I think the first decade after they were

  created we moved the lines a little tiny bit.  I was a

  District Manager of a Planning Board in '90 for five

  years, until '95.  I was liaison from the Department of

  City Planning as an Urban Planner to that same Community

  Planning District for three years before that.  And I

  believe a student, obviously of that district and that

  district line -- that hadn't changed for 20 years before

  I got there -- or just about.  I think it was '74 when

  they were created.

                 So, you know, it's something we're

  supposed to examine.  But in terms of municipal service

  management, we think it works.  So nobody's touching it.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Kee.

                 MS. KEE:  I find your structure and

  insights very interesting because I guess from your

  background as an urban planner, thank you very much.  I

  think the concept of having labor as a part of it is very

  important.  In our discussion with 1199 from the

  Chinatown area, the Asian community, they are very

  interested in day care, because they see that that is a

  very important aspect of education, moving into

  education.

                 Now my question is, do you see a role for

  Council members?  Because we find that when we deal with

  the Planning Boards, in order to get our voices heard, we

  also run to the Council member, our local Council member,

  because they're close to us.

                 Do you see a role for Council members?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  I think that

  there is definitely a role for them.  I was a member of

  the City Council and I worked with the Borough President

  to appoint members to the Community Board.  Now I work

  with the Council members in my borough.  And that

  engagement is a very real one.  We literally sit down and

  go through person by person, the merits of why that

  person should be on the Board.

                 I think that --

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  I think that

  probably the most meaningful indeed should go, is going

  to be in the budget exercise and the planning exercise

  with the members because now that we've given -- I say

  all this very guardedly, but we've given control to the

  Mayor.  I'm guarded in that because I think that the

  Mayors have always had control.

                 But anyway, now that we formally have

  given more control I should say to the Mayor, that

  engages the City Council much more meaningfully in the

  discussion about education, in the budget priorities, and

  in the negotiating out of the elements of the budget for

  communities around the city.

                 And of course I work as do the other

  Borough Presidents very closely with my delegation to try

  to set priorities for the borough.  Formally, I don't

  know.  We can entertain splicing that in.  I haven't

  thought about how to formally do that.  I mean I think

  maybe the way we appoint the Planning Board members,

  maybe we should appoint -- or maybe we can appoint the

  Borough Board members with the City Council reps.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblywoman Pheffer.

                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:  Thank you.  One of

  our concerns about the Community School Board District is

  that it is so uneven as far as representation and I'm not

  sure and I haven't looked at but it would be something as

  my colleague had said about looking at the Community

  Board structure.  I'm not sure if it's equally

  distributed as far as representation of constituents.

                 But also, just talking about you said each

  district would have a District Administrator.  How are

  you viewing that?  I mean part of the complaint is that

  the school districts all have a full force of employees

  and now you're setting up 59 such little establishments.

                 So your Deputy Administrator, is he going

  to have a staff?  Is there going to be rent, you know all

  the things now that the local school districts --

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Yeah,

  naturally there would be.  But these are smaller

  districts.  Your -- I think the goal here is to make

  smaller more manageable entities and that's been part of

  the problem.  We've just created ten small high schools

  in the Bronx.  The 400 student schools, some of them

  started with 100 students, but ultimately the idea is to

  keep them small, keep them manageable.  We have one of

  the largest school districts in the city in the Bronx,

  School District 10, at one point peaked at 47,000

  students and included neighborhoods that were very, very

  diverse and both geographically, topographically in terms

  of income and it made it very, very difficult for that

  superintendent to manage the entire district.  It's like

  running a small city; 47,000 people, that's 47,000 of

  them, and their parents and the teachers, and the

  buildings, and the planning, and the budget.

                 Every one of the 32 School Districts now

  has a Deputy Superintendent, that really runs the day to

  day operations while the Superintendent, you know, if the

  Superintendent's smart, does what they need to do, look

  at the district with a more bird's eye, and allow them to

  run the day to day operations.

                 So I don't know that we're creating more

  layers or adding anything.  What we're probably doing is

  redistributing who we have in an already existing

  structure.  And we probably need to examine how much more

  bureaucracy does this add.  I don't think it adds more

  bureaucracy.  I think in fact what you do is you get more

  of a borough level centralized planning.  We already have

  it with the high schools superintendents and it actually

  works well for the high schools, because of that bird's

  eye view, because of the balancing of interests around

  the borough.

                 The Deputies are there.  That's what they

  do.  Maybe some of the Superintendents -- here come my

  friends at the CSA, but there's maybe some of the

  Superintendents become District Administrators and not

  Superintendents.  And maybe it's time to cut some of the

  fat at the top and have these managers at the district

  level and then Educational Planners at the borough level.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Clayton.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  How are you doing, Mr.

  Carrion?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Hi, Mr.

  Clayton.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  All right, because there's

  so many questions, I'd like to make our encounter here

  brief if possible if you don't mind.  As you know, on

  June 10th it was signed into law by the Governor giving

  the Mayoral control of the system and also we got five

  parents appointed to this Education Panel.

                 Now they seem to be sitting there just

  "window dressing;" no power, no clout, or anything, and

  there's like a disconnect from the bottom up to them

  sitting up there.

                 So now how do we explicitly get them into

  your plan where we give them clout so that it is explicit

  that they do represent from the bottom up, these school

  leadership teams, these Borough Boards, these -- I mean

  it just spirals up where now it's known that they are

  sitting there and they have clout.  And so although they

  are numbered in vote or consensus on that panel, they

  still will ineptly have clout and someone to be reckoned

  with as a force of representing parents system wide.

                 So how do we fit them in?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Well, the

  structure that I've set up, the line share of the

  appointments are parents.  They are the parent leaders

  that have come up through the districts, through these

  smaller districts.  And in the case of the Bronx, there

  would be 12 of them.  And what -- here's the break out.

  I saw a body of 21 members chaired by the Borough

  President.  You have the three supervising

  Superintendents.  You have 12 -- the this -- in the case

  of the Bronx, 12 parent reps which are the parent

  District Leaders.  You have the appointed member to the

  Panel on Educational Policy, which is those folks you

  referred to.  My appointee is here and she's going to

  testify a little later.  And then you have the Community

  Stakeholder.  And I imagine that there would be five

  Community Stakeholder and that would be business, labor,

  post secondary institutions, and now this interesting

  twist of possibly having besides the labor community

  that's outside of the education system, having a United

  Federation of Teachers Rep for the borough sitting there.

                 But still if you look at it on balance,

  you have a block of parents.  But if they work together,

  they can really push for the kids and balance the

  interests.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Ms. Mullen?

                 MS. MULLEN:  First congratulations on that

  fine school at Lehman College for American Studies.

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Oh, that's a

  great school.

                 MS. MULLEN:  I understand they've already

  been to Boston.  They've been to their first trip.

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  That's a great

  concept there.

                 MS. MULLEN:  Yeah.

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Thank you.

                 MS. MULLEN:  Just a question that I have

  about the District Parent Councils.  Would those be

  elected at the May elections by members of public at

  large, initially?  And then when you have the 12 district

  parent members who would sit on the Borough Board, would

  those then be chosen by the individual District Parent

  Councils or would there be some election process once

  again?

                 How would they get there?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  The first

  layer would be elected at the local school community

  level, which is -- you know, if it's P.S. 111, then the

  P.S. 111 community selects their parent leader.  That

  parent leader represents that school at the District

  Parent Council with all the Reps from each school and

  those folks would select somebody who would be their

  voice.  That person would sit on the Borough Board.

                 MS. MULLEN:  How about the industry

  members?  How would they get there?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  That's up for

  grabs.  You know, I selfishly would like to have the

  privilege, statutorily I would like to have the privilege

  as the elected executive of the borough to do that,

  because the people have entrusted the interests of the

  entire borough on this office, and I know that's

  debatable.  We could be here for days talking about our

  civic structure.  But that is what it is and there is an

  entrusting of that level of responsibility in the Borough

  Presidency to balance interests and to work on planning

  and budget and having a longer view than the immediate

  local view of any one representative, with all due

  respect to their importance.

                 MS. MULLEN:  And then ultimately what

  would the Borough Boards do on a daily basis?  How would

  they interact with the new set up?

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  They would

  behave similarly to the Borough Boards that meet once a

  month to do planning and development and budget

  priorities and make decisions on land use.  In this case,

  it would be as I stated earlier, enrollment planning;

  zoning -- they would decide the zoning issues; facilities

  planning; safety, overall safety issues in the schools;

  the budge, obviously the budget becomes a big, big piece

  of -- and then formally, and hopefully by law, the Mayor

  and the City Council would have to respond to that

  Borough Board in a formal procedure that's set up.

                 So that -- for instance, right now I send

  my budget priorities to the Mayor once he puts out an

  executive plan and then the Administration has to

  formally respond to us, and then we begin that formal

  engagement.  That same engagement could occur for

  education planning and development.

                 MS. MULLEN:  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Borough President,

  we are very grateful for the generosity of your time this

  morning and for your, obviously well considered proposal.

  I suspect that we may want to have some discussions to

  hone in some of your ideas, as we move forward.  But for

  now, we would all very much appreciate your being with us

  this morning and for your testimony.

                 BOROUGH PRESIDENT CARRION:  Thank you for

  this opportunity.  Have a great holiday, everybody.

  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  Before I

  call the next witness, let me just make mention that for

  the Task Force members who came in a little bit late,

  that on -- in front of you, somewhere in the pile of

  papers, you will find our December 15th preliminary

  report.  So if you didn't get it in the fax, it is in

  front of you and you ought to just hold onto that.

                 And also let me just make mention that we

  have been really fortunate that at each of our public

  hearings, we have had the benefit of the testimony from

  the Borough Presidents before us and we have always

  allowed and allotted more time for the Borough Presidents

  for obvious reasons.

                 From this point on out, however, I'm going

  to have to keep pretty strictly to our five minute time

  for testimony so that we can hear from all the people who

  want to testify today.  And again, for those of you who

  came in late, if you have surpassed your five minute time

  limit, I'm going to gently give you a little reminder

  that you need to wrap up.

                 Our next witness is Regent from the

  borough of the Bronx, Lorraine Cortez-Vazquez.  Also

  present, the Hispanic Federation.

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  Good morning.  Thank

  you esteemed colleagues and Assembly Members.  Thank you

  for holding this hearing on the Bronx.

                 My name is Lorraine Cortes-Vazquez.  I am

  the President of the Hispanic Federation and as

  Assemblyman Sanders said, I'm also the Bronx

  Representative on the Board of Regents.

                 The Hispanic Federation is a network of 75

  Latino not for profits, providing health and human

  services through The City of New York, The State of New

  York, New Jersey, and Connecticut.  Primarily about 80

  percent of the service providers that are members of the

  Hispanic Federation are from The City of New York.

                 Hispanic Federation does a survey every

  year of a thousand New Yorkers, Hispanic New Yorkers.

  And we ask a battery of quality of life questions.  And

  one of the questions, and we spend a lot of questions on

  education.  Because education, when you look at for

  Latinos, what are the primary concerns and the issues

  that matter the most to them, three always are in

  competition.  Education always comes out first and then

  there's the competition between jobs and crime, depending

  what the crime level is at the moment.  But education for

  the last 11 years that we have done this survey, has

  become the priority.

                 And yet we are very concerned in the

  Latino community because there's this great disconnect

  with this high value on education, and yet the

  educational achievement of our students in the public

  school system.

                 I'm just going to share with you a little

  bit of the survey findings.  Forty-seven percent of our

  parents indicate that the schools are failing our

  children.  So there's a good reality testing in our

  community.

                 One of the other issues that we have

  always asked was -- we asked this year in particular

  should the Mayor have control and there was an

  overwhelming 52 percent felt that the Mayor should have

  control.  And yet we ask should Community Boards be

  abolished, and there was a resounding no.  We were

  surprised that there were 58 percent that Community

  Boards should not be abolished.

                 And we then went further and we asked why

  and it was a matter of input.  Because we then asked how

  about your involvement in schools; are you satisfied with

  the way the school system is integrating and involving

  parents.  And there was again, a resounding no.  People

  felt that they were not readily accepted in the school

  system, and I don't think this is a situation that's

  unique for Latinos in the school system.

                 So that I think the response to Community

  School Boards was really a response to we want inclusion.

  We want participation, and we want participation in a way

  that makes sense where we can have an impact on the

  educational achievement of our children.

                 We already know that we need a

  collaborative approach in school systems.  The school

  system cannot go it alone.  We need to provide

  relationships and effective partnerships with community

  based organizations, with social service providers, with

  the health professions and with allied trades so that we

  can then bring a richness back to our school system.

                 The Hispanic Federation supports the

  notion of a community structure at the borough level.  It

  does not have to be the Community School Board as we know

  it now.  But it has to be a structure and we support very

  much the structure that was presented previously by the

  Borough President of the Bronx, which is a collaborative

  partnership of a lot of stakeholder.

                 However, the Hispanic Federation also

  feels because of our commitment and our response from

  parents that because 47 percent of the students in the

  public school system are Latino students, that 47 percent

  of the parent participants throughout the city on any

  Community Boards must be Latino parents.   We also

  further believe that it is not, and I was so happy to

  hear Mr. Cloughton (phonetic) say about a diminished role

  for parents.  This is an equal voice, an equal

  partnership.  They are the highest stakeholder in the

  educational system, because as we all know the primary

  educator of any child is the parent.

                 And education is a process, both the

  formal and the informal by which the moral character, as

  well as the individual is created.  And so by not

  diminishing the role of the parent, we need to make sure

  that we do not denigrate or give them a second tier

  system.

                 So we want equal voice, equal vote and

  fair participation given the number of children that are

  represented in the school system.  We cannot continue to

  have this daunting drop out rate among the Latino

  community.  We, as a citizen's rate, we should not be

  able to tolerate that the school system has failed

  children, and this is not a new phenomenon.  This has

  been going on since 1976.  But this is an opportunity for

  us to recreate, be visionary, and to stop this epidemic

  of drop outs among our students; so borough structure, an

  appointed and elected process, equal representation given

  the student population, equal vote, full participation.

                 We also think that this particular borough

  structure should have some budgetary responsibilities.

  Because one, having a policy responsibility is essential.

  But without having some control or say over the budget,

  your input on policy is somewhat diminished.  So that we

  believe that there has to be an increased role in terms

  of the budgetary process.  We even further believe that

  we need to start changing the formula by which boroughs

  and schools are funded in the City of New York.  We

  believe that it should be on a per capita or a per

  enrollee basis by borough, with then a portion of the

  formula being to fill gap and special needs.

                 But with the explosion of population in

  some of the outer boroughs it is unfair that a line share

  of this city's educational resources go to the boroughs

  that do not have the most children.

                 I thank you and I am available for any

  questions.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  That was

  close to five minutes.  That was pretty good.

                 Mr. Friedman.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Good morning.  Thank you

  very much for your testimony.

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  Thank you.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  This is a question I've had

  for the -- I'm not sure there's an answer to it.  But we

  have a school system which is 87 percent non-white.  You

  tell me 47 percent Latino student population.

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  Umm-humm.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  If we're going to have

  elections similar with what Borough President Carrion

  spoke about, which are basically P.T.A. elections and

  President's Councils, very similar to what we have now.

  How do we ensure any particular percentage of

  representation that were demographically balanced?

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  I think that we have

  to create an environment where we encourage and support

  participation, support candidates.  I think that there

  are ways that we can do that.  We definitely know how to

  discourage candidates so that we can then be very clever

  and know how to support and encourage candidates.

                 The other thing that we need to do is do

  we need to change -- if we're going to have a process by

  where -- that will be through an election, we need to

  make that election at a time where people think of

  voting.  We need not to have these elections at times

  that are contrary to people's voting patterns, and

  traditionally and customary voting patterns, so that we

  can have them during general elections or primary

  elections so that we can guarantee a larger voice in that

  participation.

                 And I think that if we did this in a fair

  process, we would be able to have a parent participation

  rate that reflects the student participation rate.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Kee.

                 MS. KEE:  Do you think that this election

  process, I envision that it would be done directly within

  the school, rather than through the Board of Elections.

  Were you thinking that it had to be a Board of Elections

  process?

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  I don't think it has

  to be a Board of Election process, but I think the timing

  of it is key to people participating.  And I want to just

  say that I do see it a little different than parents

  associations and P.T.A.'s because I don't think that

  those have used parents effectively.  I think those have

  been very good for schools and principals and I have the

  highest regard for principals and I have the greatest

  regard for anyone who is in the teaching profession.

                 But I think those associations have been

  really to serve those structures rather than to serve the

  academic needs of students.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Rivera.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Thank you for

  stopping by, Lorraine.

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  Thank you.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  A quick question.  I

  think the Borough President indicated that at election

  time only three percent of individuals participate in a

  school board election as we used to have in the City of

  New York.  Has the Federation ever looked at Hispanics,

  per say and their participation in School Board elections

  and what are some of the issues that they see in being

  able to participate in School Board elections?

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  I think one of the

  greatest barriers to participation has been the timing.

  I think that people are not traditionally thinking of

  voting and it's still set up like an election through the

  Board of Elections.  I think there's a disconnect there.

                 Some elections in Latino communities have

  been won with 26 votes.  That is not fair representation

  between the candidates.  Some elections have been won

  with less than 800 votes within a district for Community

  School Board participants.  So that is not representative

  of a community, not even of a school community.  Because

  if you know the school communities in the Bronx, we have

  many more than 800 students in a school.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Lavelle?

  Assemblyman Lavelle, excuse me.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  Schools have

  scheduled nights where parents come in to meet with the

  teachers.  Do you have a feel for what the percentage of

  that participation is among the parents?  Because that

  may be a night that you would like to conclude this

  selection process, because you would be removing it from

  the electoral process and it is a night or maybe a series

  of nights.

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  The one that -- one

  of the campaigns that we engaged in last year was

  encouraging people to participate in teacher/parent

  conferences.  But unfortunately, the participation is

  rather low and it diminishes when you go from elementary

  school to junior high school and it's almost non-existent

  in high school.  So that using that as a vehicle for

  recruitment or solicitation or elections, might be -- if

  you would tell me that we would do two years of

  preparation of public awareness campaigns and education

  campaigns to increase parental involvement in those

  structures, then I would say that that would be a good

  investment.

                 But we're not talking two years out.

  We're talking about a system that we want in place

  currently and I don't believe that those have been

  effective ways for parents to have relationships with

  teachers.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Reddington?

                 MS. REDDINGTON:  Thank you for your

  testimony.  One of the -- what you said before interested

  me.  You said that one of the School Board Members for

  instance were elected with 26 votes.  What do you -- you

  know, how would you change that?  In other words are

  viable candidates not running, or do you feel people from

  the Hispanic community are not running for the office for

  specific reasons?

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  I think there's a

  myriad of reasons for it.  I don't think it's -- I think

  it's some of the School Board elections have been highly

  politicized and extremely charged.  I don't think it -- I

  think it's a variety of reasons.  But I think there's a

  disengagement.  One, primarily because of when the

  elections are held, that that just exacerbates a very

  politicized process.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. DeLeon.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Lorraine, thank you for

  being here.  I find your thoughts very compelling.

  Focusing on voting, would you change it to a one man, one

  vote or keep the -- what's been called a convoluted

  voting parents -- the present system or the present

  system that was does it electing of parents and School

  Boards?

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  I believe that

  education is a public issue.  And I believe that all of

  us have a stake in education, and it should be a one man,

  one vote process.  That's how we say that all our other

  representatives should be elected and we take those

  representatives very seriously.

                 If we want to take these representatives

  very seriously, we need to apply the same standards.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well, we thank you very

  much, Ms. Cortes-Vazquez for being here this morning.  We

  thank you so much for your years of service as President

  of the Hispanic Federation and your recent years of

  service on the New York State Board of Regents and

  certainly your comments, observations and advice to us

  this morning are very well appreciated.

                 MS. CORTES-VAZQUEZ:  It's my honor to

  serve and thank you for having me.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  I will once

  again make mention of the fact that even though you do

  not see her seated at this table, our Co-Chair, Terri

  Thomson, who had some shoulder surgery yesterday is

  listening into these proceedings.  We have her hooked up

  by telephone, so she is aware of all that is being said.

  And again, I'm going to just remind all the witnesses to,

  although I know you have much to say and we appreciate

  that, to try to confine your remarks to about five

  minutes.

                 Our next witness is no stranger to some of

  the members here who are from the legislature, really no

  stranger to anyone in the Bronx or the City of New York,

  the council member from the Eleventh Council District,

  Oliver Koppell.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  Good morning, Mr.

  Chairman, and good morning members of the Panel, several

  of whom we spent many good years together in Albany and

  I'm delighted that they're still there, because I know

  they're very diligent about trying to do the best for

  their constituents and for the city, and also thank all

  the other members of the Panel who are doing this as

  volunteers.  It's taking a lot of time and I'm impressed

  that you're all here.

                 Let me just pay a special thanks to Jerry

  Levin because of the contribution that his family has

  made to the Bronx and the tragedy that did not dissuade

  him, but encouraged him to participate even more fully.

  We appreciate your being here.  Not to say that we don't

  appreciate everyone else's participation.

                 Let me say, as you said Steve, I was in

  the State Legislature for many years.  For 23 years I

  served as Attorney General of New York for one year and I

  served and most importantly in this context as President

  of Community School Board 10 for two and a half years.

  And now I'm a member of the New York City Council.  So I

  think I have a good perspective on the issues that you

  face.

                 I might say that one of your members, Rose

  McKenna, was a member of School Board 10 as well and I

  think she can help to explain the ups and downs of that

  School Board.

                 Let me say that given my history,

  especially my history as President of School Board 10, I

  think that many of the aspects, if not all of the current

  system of Community School Boards should be retained.  I

  couldn't disagree more with you, Mr. Chairman,

  unfortunately on the issue that the Legislature has

  mandated change.  We sunset a lot of laws.

                 I know that you, Mr. Chairman, are a

  strong supporter of continuation of the rent laws, even

  though they go out of existence at the end of the new

  session on July 1st. So that just the fact that the

  Legislature sunsetted the current system doesn't mean

  that the sun shouldn't rise again.  And that's not to say

  that you shouldn't look at it as a sunset; it is.  And

  you should question, should be revive this as it is?

  Should we revive it with changes or should we not revive

  it at all?  That's what you're mandated for, and I agree

  with that.

                 But I don't think you should put out of

  your mind the idea of saying it should remain or largely

  remain, because there are always changes probably that

  are appropriate.  I think it should largely remain, if

  not remain entirely.  Because fundamentally number one, I

  believe in democracy and people voting and when you let

  everybody vote, that's the best guarantee that you get,

  Mr. Friedman, of having people who are elected from the

  communities.  And if you look at the composition of

  School Boards generally, and I know people can say

  District 10, white community, Riverdale community was

  over represented, and maybe to some extent it was.  But

  if you look at the School Boards of the Bronx, which is

  largely a minority borough, the members of the School

  Board are almost entirely minority members. So in general

  the electoral process has produced representation.

                 In the 1960's people went on the

  barricades.  We almost destroyed the whole city to get

  community control and community representation.  We

  shouldn't go back and put ourselves back in a centralized

  system without strong community control.  That is very

  important and I think it should be through an electoral

  process.

                 Should the election be in May or in

  November, I can argue both ways.  Yes, May produces

  smaller participation, no doubt about it.  But November

  will politicize the process, and people will align

  themselves with a candidate for Governor, or Senator, or

  Assemblyman, or whatever it may be, and that may not be a

  good idea.  Maybe you should put it in November, but not

  in a Presidential year or Governatorial year. So you'd

  have a little less of the active politics.

                 The fact that small numbers of people

  participate is unfortunate.  But those are the people who

  are interested too.  It's not so bad to have people

  participate in an election who are really interested in

  that election.  And in District 10, as some of you may

  know, where we had a hot issue when I was elected and we

  had controversy, we had very high participation.  We had

  27 percent participation.  Because we had a hot issue,

  people were interested.  They were concerned and they

  came out and vote.  They could vote.  They could express

  their opinion and they didn't like what our School Board

  was doing and they replaced the leadership of our School

  Board.  I was the beneficiary of that.

                 But that's democracy, with a small "D".

  It's a good thing.  It worked in District 10, and School

  Boards have worked not only in District 10, but many

  other districts around the city.  And where they haven't

  worked, we've got to work to make them better.

                 We don't say abolish the City Council

  because it does some foolish things.  We don't say that

  the Congress should go out of business, because a couple

  of the people went to jail.  We elect new Congress

  people.

                 We don't say because a Presidential

  Administration has failed, we should abolish the

  Presidency.  We elect a different President. So just the

  fact that some of the School Boards haven't worked,

  District 2 works great, or did work great in my opinion.

  District 10 has worked.  There have been up and downs,

  but it's worked.

                 Also while I think it's very important for

  parents to participate in School Boards and we should

  encourage that participation, don't say non-parents

  shouldn't participate.  Some of the best people and I

  include myself.  I'm not going to be modest.  I was a

  former parent.  I had three kids who went through public

  school.  But I think I contributed a lot to District 10

  and I think there are people on the District 10 Board now

  who contributed a lot who are not parents, and there are

  people on the District 10 Board who contributed a lot who

  are parents.

                 So I wouldn't say parents shouldn't be

  part of the   -- non-parents shouldn't be part of the

  process.

                 I also think we should keep the district

  small.  One of the problems with the current districts,

  they may be a little large.  Especially District 10 is

  large.  But what do the districts do?  What do those

  local Community School Boards do and what should they do?

  And I want to pay tribute to Steve Sanders who led the

  reform that took away a lot of the patronage powers of

  those Boards.  That was a problem.  But that's not a

  problem anymore.

                 The newspapers talk about patronage.

  They're talking about something that doesn't exist

  anymore.  What do they do?  They look over the whole

  district education plan, the comprehensive educational

  plan, and the help formulate educational policy for the

  district, which may be different.  It may be different

  than the South Bronx, than it is in the east side of

  Manhattan.  It may be different in Queens or Staten

  Island.  Let the local people have a role in preparing

  the district philosophy and let there be some variation.

  We can test different things that way. They review

  operations on a local level.

                 Is a Borough Board or a Citywide Board

  going to be able to know the problem of cleanliness in

  the bathrooms in P.S. 7?  No.  If there's a problem with

  cleanliness in the bathrooms in the school, which we

  found in District 10, the local board will hear that, or

  find that out.  They have to review how the

  Superintendent acts.

                 We spent a tremendous amount of time

  evaluating the Superintendent and it was to her benefit.

  It was to our benefit.  It was to the kids benefit and it

  was to the Chancellor's benefit that we analyzed the

  Superintendent's performance.

                 We were a forum for parents to complain

  to.  Do you think the parents are going to come down to

  the Tweed Court House; no.  Do you think they're even

  going to go to Borough Hall; not that much.  But if you

  have local School Board meetings in the local schools,

  that's where the parents are going to come and complain.

  And the local School Boards can help with zoning issues

  and construction issues.  They know the communities.

  They can push for schools where they think schools should

  be built.  That's what we did in District 10 and that's a

  very good thing.

                 So those functions that I just talked

  about, preparing the educational plan, reviewing the

  Superintendent, reviewing operations, being a focus for

  complaints of parents and being a lobbying force for the

  local districts, that's what the current School Boards

  do.  They're elected by the people so they do represent

  at least the voters who vote, and that's all to the good.

  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.  Don't

  eliminate democracy from the system.  Because ultimately

  that's the system that we, as Americans, believe in.

  Don't eliminate parents, but don't eliminate non-parents.

  You'll get those other stakeholder in there.

                 And I think you'll find that it's a system

  that can work.  Does it need effort to help it work; yes.

  But can it work; it can work.  It has worked.  And if we

  eliminate effective local democratic input and leave it

  all to a central administration as much as the Mayor's

  amount of good will, we don't know who's going to be the

  Mayor in the future.  It's a mistake.  And I will predict

  this.  If you do eliminate these local community based

  elected boards, within a relatively short time the demand

  for community control will once again be heard throughout

  this city.

                 And the one last thing I want to say is,

  we have locally elected School Boards all around the

  State of New York, as Steven Sanders knows very well.  I

  don't have any  less confidence and it would be a shame

  if we say we have less confidence in the voters and

  parents of the city of New York than we do in the voters

  and parents all over the State of New York where they do

  elect local School Boards.  It's in a way an insult to

  say that we can't have democracy on a grass roots level

  in the City of New York, when we have democracy on a

  grass roots level in Suffolk County and in Erie County

  and in Ondoga County and in Essex County.  We can have it

  in the City of New York.  We should have it in the City

  of New York and we should maintain that, because

  education is in fact different than other services.  It's

  not like Sanitation.  It's not like Police.  It's a

  different kind of thing that parents and individuals in

  the community should be directly involved in.  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you very much,

  Mr. Councilman.  It still is a strange title for me to

  refer to, as after so many years of working close with

  you in Albany.  I've simply been very proud of the

  successes that you have achieved at so many different

  levels of government and public efforts.

                 Do you have questions?  Assemblyman Green

  and then Mr. Levin.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  Nice to see you,

  Roger.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Good to see you also.

  We haven't redrawn these school district lines in over 30

  years.  Do you think we need to, at the very least look

  at how the line are at this point in time?

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  Absolutely, yes.

  And I will say this.  While I don't agree entirely with

  the Borough President's concept, the one area that I

  think is very interesting and that I think it might well

  be a wise thing to do is to make the Community Boards and

  the School Boards congruent.  I think Audrey mentioned

  would that work or would it also create all kinds of

  different sized districts, and it's a good question.  I

  don't know the answer to it.

                 But with respect to your question, the

  answer to the re-drawing is absolutely yes.  We should

  look at it.  Very tough.  You know the kind of conflict

  it causes when you try and re-draw lines.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Yes.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  But should we do it;

  absolutely yes.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Levin.

                 MR. LEVIN:  How would you summary how we

  could correct for either the problems that have arisen

  with the Community School Boards, but still retain the

  past interest?  What's the essence of that?

                 And then the second question, and the

  Borough President referred to this, but how do you engage

  the business community in education?

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  First of all, I

  think we've gone a long way to correcting some of the

  historical problems when we eliminated the power of

  appointment of a lot of the administrators and only had

  the appointment of the Superintendent.

                 One issue that I find very complex and

  difficult is, what should the role of the Community

  School Board be in terms of the selection of the

  Superintendent.  Because now we have under the current

  structure, the one that's going out of business, that the

  Superintendent picks almost the whole staff and has a

  very important role.  And in the legislation that the

  Legislature passed, they now took away the power of the

  local School Boards to have a role in picking the

  Superintendent.  I think that's a mistake.

                 At the same time, there were problems

  where the Chancellor and the Board got into sort of a

  stalemate in appointing a Superintendent.

                 So what I'd like you to consider is to

  bring back, I mean assuming you would have some sort of

  Community School Board again, which I hope you do, to

  bring back some role of the Community School Board in the

  appointment of the Superintendent, but try and avoid the

  kind of a deadlock that we had.  I don't exactly know how

  to do that, but perhaps if the Community School Board and

  the Chancellor are totally deadlocked that would be some

  sort of arbitration process that would break the

  deadlock, and it would be decided -- someone would

  decide.  You know, so we wouldn't have the situation

  where we used to -- where we had in some districts --

  this was not true in our district, but in some districts

  you had the Board saying it should be Mr. X or Miss X and

  the Chancellor saying I won't accept Miss X and the Board

  saying well we're not going to give you any new names.

  So then you had a stalemate.  That should be eliminated.

  But I could think of ways you could do that.  I don't

  think that would be a problem.

                 So I think that the Board should have a

  role in the selection of the Superintendent, although

  that the process has to be adjusted.  That's one thing

  that I would change from the past.

                 I would not give the Board back the

  patronage powers they used to have.  I don't think that

  was a good thing.  And I think what happened after they

  lost the patronage powers, some of the bad kind of

  politicians got sort of disinterested in that much time,

  that they got disinterested.  The people were only

  interested because they felt they could get jobs that

  way.

                  So I think what was not recognized by the

  press and a lot of other people that the local Community

  School Boards' process was changed because of problems

  and we didn't really recognize it.  I mean the papers

  still talk about the patronage problems, largely

  eliminated.  At least certainly with District 10 they

  were.  I was terrified of making any recommendation.  I

  made no recommendations to the Superintendent whatsoever

  with respect to personnel because I knew that I would be

  criticized if it turned out that that became public

  knowledge.  And I think my colleagues on the School Board

  was the same thing.

                 So I think largely I don't think there

  were really major, major, major problems there.  And I

  will say this about the old Chancellor in the school

  district and maybe some of you here who weren't part of

  School Boards don't recognize this.  Do you realize that

  every School Board member had to attend training sessions

  down at 110 Livingston Street, where we had to sit there

  and be taught about how to run a meeting and how to

  respond to parents' complaint, and how to deal with the

  disciplinary process because we had a role, when a

  teacher got disciplined, we had a role to review the

  Superintendents.  And we were trained and they were

  pretty good at that.

                 So it wasn't that these Community School

  Boards were allowed to be out there and run amuck.  They

  were closely monitored by the Central Board, which was a

  good thing.

                 There was a fellow named Bert Katz, he

  just -- Bert Sacks (phonetic).  I keep calling him Katz.

  Bert Sacks, and he was watching us all the time.  And his

  people were watching us all the time.  And DeMartini

  (phonetic) I remember -- Doreen DeMartini, I mean this

  who concept that these School Boards were allowed to run

  amuck and were dysfunctional.  I mean there may have been

  some that were, but there was a lot done to try and help

  make them run smoothly.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Wylde.

                 MR. LEVIN:  If I can just follow up.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Levin

                 MR. LEVIN:  The second question I had is

  how can we engage the business community?

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  Well I think that

  some of the things they do now, for instance, this

  Principal for a Day Program, is a very fine program.  I

  think that it may be that the city government could

  actually provide some sort of financial incentives.  I

  mean it could be that we could provide that businesses

  that contribute a certain amount to the educational

  system get some credit against their city taxes.  And

  that would provide an incentive for businesses to

  participate.

                 I think that establishing an office, and I

  think they've done this to some extent with the Principal

  for a    Day --

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  -- is a program in

  the health sciences, where they link with some of the

  health care institutions and that kind of thing could be

  expanded.  Because one of the problems that businesses

  have in the city and you probably know this better than

  I, is getting qualified people to work there.  So if you

  could tie it together with training people who could then

  go to work for the business.

                 One of the things the Legislature did, you

  I'm sure remember this, Steve, is we created -- and

  Roger, the Transit High School, where the kids who went

  to that high school were trained to careers in Transit.

  And we have Aviation Trades High School for instance in

  Queens where they could train for the aviation.  Those

  kind of things are things that can be done, I think.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well, Mr. Councilman --

  excuse me. Follow up Mr. Assemblyman.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Yes, just one last

  question.  Short of giving the School Boards more power

  in terms of selecting Superintendents, is there something

  that could be done with respect to -- and you talked

  about earlier, the review of Superintendents and perhaps

  even some powers that are related to accountability and

  grievances where Superintendents have failed, so that

  this -- do you understand what I'm saying?

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  No, I think that's

  very important.  I think that that is an important role

  for the School Board to coordinate with the Chancellor in

  the review of the Superintendent's performance.  It is a

  very important function.  And as I said, I regretted to

  some extent the Legislature taking away the power of the

  School Boards with respect to Superintendents.  Because

  if you take that power away entirely, if you have no

  power at all, then ultimately they can be a good

  discussion society.  But the Superintendent then doesn't

  have to be answerable at all.

                 I thought we had with Irma Zadoi

  (phonetic) who is a good Superintendent, but in some ways

  didn't do some of the things that we felt should be done,

  that the dynamic of the dialogue did move things in the

  right direction without interfering too much with her

  administrative power.  It kind of worked.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well, once again

  Oliver, we thank you so much for your testimony.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  Thank you for

  listening, and I appreciate your attention.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Inside your three

  decades of service, you're probably as shocked as I am

  that a member who came up just about the same time you

  did in Albany is now the Dean of the entire Legislature,

  Richard Gottfried.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  Right.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  So time moves on, but

  you've certainly gotten better with age.  We thank you so

  much.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN KOPPELL:  Thank you very much.

  Thanks, Steve.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Before I call the next

  witness, I.O., are you back?  Can you come forward for a

  moment.  Let me just also make mention the fact that

  occasionally we have to depart a little bit from our

  order of witnesses for the most expeditious running of

  the hearing.  So if someone is called before your name

  appears on the agenda, we will get to you very quickly.

                 Our next witness is the Representative for

  the New York City Panel of Education Reform for the

  Borough of the Bronx, Natalie Gomez-Velez.

                 MS. GOMEZ-VELEZ:  Thank you, Co-Chairman

  Sanders, Assemblyman Rivera, members of the Assembly and

  the Task Force and I do -- I will be brief.  I did want

  to speak though as the Bronx Representative of the Panel

  for Educational Policy which really is part of the first

  phase of the change in the governance structure.  And I

  did want to share with you just very, very briefly some

  of my observations in the four months or so that I've

  served on the Panel for Educational Policy as the Bronx

  rep and as essentially the parent rep, which the

  legislation requires.  And just to reach out, I don't

  have a specific governance proposal to put before you,

  but I do want to say a couple of things.

                 And one is, I think, in this four month

  period that I've been serving on the Panel for

  Educational Policy, I've had people come up to me with a

  number of different impressions of what the Panel's

  function is supposed to be, what it's purpose is, what my

  role particularly as a borough rep and as a parent rep is

  supposed to be with respect to the Panel for Educational

  Policy.  And I have to say, some people have said it's a

  paper tiger; it's doesn't have any power; you're really

  in the land of Mayoral control.  The Panel is stacked,

  basically seven Mayoral appointees versus the five

  borough appointees.

                 I know that it was put together with the

  best of intentions and all that being said -- on the

  other hand, I do have people who also come up and say

  they want me to move mountains for them as someone who

  has the ear of the Chancellor, someone who has the ear of

  the Department and there are circumstances I think where

  that is definitely possible and doable, working within

  the system.

                 What I think is very, very critical when

  we talk about the rest of the piece of the change in

  school governance, is that we insure that we put together

  something that allows for two things that I see as sorely

  lacking as I'm sitting on the Panel and one is

  transparency and the other is connectivity.

                 You know, I'm one person.  I'm a parent

  and I'm a working parent and what I've been trying to do

  as a representative of the Panel is not only attend the

  Panel meetings and respond to the request from the

  Department of Education for input on that level, but

  really to go around the Bronx and reach out and talk to

  parents around the Bronx.  And that's not easy.  There's

  only so many hours in the day.

                 I think that we need it on the one hand.

  And on the other hand, I think that one of the issues

  with respect to transparency is there are things that

  happen that we, on the Panel, and I know I'm not speaking

  only for myself, find out very late in the day, if at

  all.  I think we would all benefit from having more

  information and more input, and a mechanism for

  transparency that will help to make sure that information

  about what the policy decisions are that are being made

  at the Department of Education level are shared with

  people or shared in a timely and effective manner in a

  way that enables input that is meaningful.  We also need

  connectivity.  We need a structure.

                 What I observe is, you know, there are

  parents out there who are working very, very hard on the

  school level, in the intermediate levels, in the parent

  superstructure.  But I don't see a connectedness with

  those parents and the work that they're doing and the

  valuable information that they have to the structure

  within the community, within the school community, within

  the community -- I was listening to the Community Board

  Structure, the thing that sort of puts those pieces

  together.  And I think that's very, very important, and I

  think that however you structure it to make sure that

  there is a mechanism for input from the ground up.  But

  that doesn't just stop there, or that doesn't go up a

  channel that is separate from the input that is necessary

  for purposes of policy development.  And I think that you

  need something on the ground, something that moves again

  to the community level, that sorts of integrates those

  interests with and includes other players on the

  community level, and then brings it to the policy level

  so that what gets brought ultimately up to that policy

  level, and if it is to the Panel members or through some

  other mechanism, is supported by a view that comes from

  the ground up.  Where you say, okay, these are the

  priorities that each school sets out, but then when you

  look at it at the community level, then you kind of can

  set them a little bit better in context.  And then when

  you look at it at the bird's eye view level, you can set

  it a little bit better in context.  But do it in a way

  that puts the two pieces together.

                 Right now it's so difficult, and I think

  about it in terms of the -- you know, you have Community

  School Boards, and there's all those meetings going on,

  you have Community Board meeting and they're all going

  on.  It's got to be streamlined.  It's got to be

  connected and it's got to be designed in a way that's

  going to allow for a -- and I will say this, you know, a

  counter balance, a check that is effective both with

  respect to the nuts and bolts on the ground level,

  connects the nuts and bolts, day to day.  Here's what's

  happening today, and here's what's happening now, all the

  way up through the okay, on a broader policy level, what

  do we need to see happening.

                 And I ask that in this discussion about

  governance really think about how that structure is going

  to support getting information.

                 And I'll tell you the places and times

  where I have been most effective have been because I have

  had my ear to the ground with respect to what's going on,

  locally within the schools, what parents have brought to

  my attention and you're able to bring that to the Panel,

  to the Chancellor, to the Mayor, to whomever.  But you

  know, in order for this piece or any piece not to be

  window dressing or a paper tiger or whatever people are

  calling it, I think it's very necessary that that

  governance structure bring it up both and include both

  the nuts and bolts and take it on up to the policy level.

  And really, that's the substance of my remarks.  I can

  give in more extensive written remarks as well.  But

  that's basically the substance of my remarks and I

  welcome any questions that you may have.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you very much.

  Mr. Friedman.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you very much for

  your testimony.  You highlight one of my biggest fears

  and that is that currently we have by statute School

  Boards which are supposedly the educational policy makers

  at the district level and the Panel of Educational Policy

  which are the policy makers at the citywide level.  I'm

  not sure exact what the role is.  Just two questions.

                 Regarding that, one is is there any

  interaction right now between those two statutory levels,

  between the Community School Boards and the Panel of

  Educational Policy?

                 My second question would be just as an

  example last week the Mayor and the Chancellor came out

  with a policy regarding principals and bonuses.  Was that

  something that was brought to the Panel and parents on

  the Panel had input on it?

                 MS. GOMEZ-VELEZ:  I'll answer your second

  question first.  No.

                 And to answer your first question, and I

  don't know the degree to which this is the function of

  the fact that we are in the -- we are at the time period

  where we're at, where there is a change going on and the

  functions of no one really knows what the functions of

  the Panel for Educational Policy are yet and everybody

  knows that the Community School Boards are sort of going

  someplace, but who knows where.

                 To the extent that there has been

  communication between Panel members and Community School

  members, it depended on the effort and the outrage on

  both sides, the Panel member and the Community School

  Board member.  And what I'm saying is we've got to put

  something together that structurally makes those

  relationships possible.  And does it in a way that's

  sufficiently streamlined so people, including the public

  and everybody else don't have to go twelve places to get

  that input and don't have to go twelve places to see how

  the input that you get all the way on the ground gets

  implemented up through the policy level.

                 So this notion of having the Community

  Boards and the School Boards co-termines -- I mean one

  way to think about it is wow that would be one sort of

  place where you could talk about those issues.  However

  you structure it though, I think it is critically

  important that to keep in mind the importance to put

  together a structure that will enforce transparency.  And

  when I say transparency I mean information exchange that

  is timely and that allows for meaningful input.  And I'm

  not talking about putting in impediments and slowing

  things down.  I mean I think people are reasonable about

  this.  And connectivity which is an opportunity to get

  that information through.

  

                 I mean one of the other things that I have

  been hearing is that Panel members -- people on the

  ground don't know.   I mean even after policy decisions

  are made, we had an incredible struggle with respect to

  the supplemental educational services on No Child Left

  Behind.  That's something that was implemented this year,

  this fall.  There was a November 15th deadline.  We were

  frantic trying to reach out to parents and say do you

  know what you need to do in order to access these

  services?  If they're there, people should know about

  them.  We have to connect those dots so that parents have

  an opportunity to understand.  And I'm not saying just

  parents.  I think that the communities and those who are

  interested have an opportunity to understand what's

  available, what's out there, what's happening.

                 There is an opportunity also for some

  input that's meaningful.  And right now, you know -- and

  I'm an optimist and I'm willing to give everybody the

  benefit of the doubt.  But, so in the beginning I would

  say oh, you know, it's getting started and -- but, I'm

  not getting a lot of information that I think ought to be

  shared with Panel members, with the public before it's

  done.

                 I have to tell you I was told just

  yesterday for as an example that there's a major

  announcement today in Staten Island education.  I

  couldn't tell you what it's about.  I was invited to

  attend.  I won't be able to be there, because I've got to

  run to go to work.  But it's that kind of thing and you

  know, with all due respect to everyone's efforts, if this

  is going to be effective, there's got to be transparency

  and there's got to be connectivity.

                 We've got to make a structure that makes

  it effective for parents to be involved.  And everybody's

  talking a about parent involvement.  You hear it from the

  Mayor.  You hear it from the Chancellor.  You hear it

  from the Feds, you have parent involvement, parent

  involvement.  It's got to be something -- we've got to

  put a structure together that's going to make it

  effective so that there is -- when parents put their

  input in, there's a response and there's a supportive

  structure and you know, there's an answer.  Even if the

  answer is no, that there's a give and take.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Green.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Given the fact that

  the Panel Group is called a body, is supposed to be

  primarily involved with policy, what has been the

  opportunities that the parents have had who are on the

  Board such as yourself, to recommend policies to the

  Chancellor and how was that done?

                 MS. GOMEZ-VELEZ:  Again, I think to the

  extent that that is done, it is done based on the impetus

  of the parents themselves.  And the times that it is

  effective, for example you know, we've pushed No Child

  Left Behind on the supplements and they extended the

  deadline.  And it was one week and then into the

  Thanksgiving week and I don't think that was enough.  And

  real issue was getting the information out there.

                 But you know, you do get some response.

  The most effective response for example on the school

  safety issue is again, when the rep or someone from the

  community accesses the parent rep and they say this is an

  issue and then we go and we take a closer look and we get

  the attention of the appropriate person in the department

  and they look at this particular issue and then it's a

  broader policy issue, so there are examples of it.  But

  it is primarily again so far as far as I can see sort of

  ad hoc on the impetus of the representative and the

  people in the community who do come forth.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  There's no statutory

  synergy between the role of parents on the Central Board

  and parents in the District; that's what you're saying?

                 MS. GOMEZ-VELEZ:  I'm not saying --

  there's nothing in place.  In other words, I still have

  and I know this, I have meetings that I have to have with

  a number of parents, parent groups and parent

  organizations.  I have requested.  I've met with some.

  I'm planning to meet with more.  But it's all on your own

  impetus.  I mean I could very well be a parent rep, to

  sit there and go to the meetings and that's it.  Do you

  follow?

                 So what I'm saying is when we talk about

  governance and when we talk about a structure, I mean

  think about this piece that's here now and how to support

  it in a way that will -- and I think this will strengthen

  the whole system.  I think that, you know, interestingly

  enough, in those instances where we have been able to

  bring particular issues to the Chancellor's attention

  from the ground up, I think they're very helpful.  And

  you know, there is this children first community

  engagement process going on where again, we have been

  asked to sort of participate in it, et cetera.  And the

  question is to how real is it going to be going down the

  road, that kind of a thing.  But again, I think that it

  is something that on the merits is very, very useful.

                 And so when you think about the governing

  structure, I think it should be sort of putting together

  and more formally the supports that will bring again the

  two things, transparency and connectivity.  And I think

  the connectivity helps in creating where you have a

  structure where you get enough support, starting from the

  ground up, up to a more policy level to then counter

  balance and really be heard on policy issues at that

  level.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you very much.

  Any other questions?  Well we thank you very much for

  your involvement and for your participation on the New

  Panel on Education Reform, and I think as you have

  correctly pointed out, it is a work in progress and it

  evidently needs more work.

                 MS. GOMEZ-VELEZ:  And again, I'm always

  optimistic.  But it is so important again for those two

  pieces to be put in.  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We heard you.  Thank

  you very much, thank you.

                 Our next witness is Dorothea Marcus who is

  a member of Community School Board number 10.

                 MS. MARCUS:  My greetings to everyone and

  actually it was delight to defer to Natalie in the order

  of speakers.  She and I actually both have daughters at

  P.S. 81 and I've been seeing her everywhere.  I don't

  know how she does it.  But you know, I see her at

  Parents' Council meetings and local P.A. meetings, and

  the School Board meetings and she has given her e-mail

  address.  She set up a special e-mail address for stuff

  about the Panel on Education Policy, which she gives out

  at Parents Association meetings around the district.  So

  she's really making an effort to be accessible.

                 So anyway, my name is Dorothea Marcus, and

  I am the sole parent of a third grader name Ruby in

  District 10 here in the Bronx.  And I've been active with

  P.S. 81, her school since she's been a student there.  I

  have also been a member of the Community School Board for

  District 10 since the spring when I was elected by the

  board to fill a vacancy.

                 My day job is Director of Communications

  and Marketing for the Institute of Student Achievement,

  which is a non profit organizations which designs small

  learning communities for high school kids, most at risk

  of dropping out.  And as been said by Oliver and some

  other speakers, I just want to reinforce that unlike the

  image that the media still seems insistent on portraying,

  sort of deionizing School Boards, and even the New York

  Times has been guilty of that I have to say, and some of

  our public officials.  Ours is not a school board

  composed of hacks, political patronage folks or people

  with personal agendas.

                 Four of us have children currently in the

  public schools.  Two of us have previously had children

  in district schools.  One of us has a pre-school child

  destined for district schools.  And one of us is a recent

  graduate of district schools.  So if you do the math,

  fuzzy or otherwise, you'll note that eight out of nine

  Community School Board 10 members have direct experience

  with out schools.  And the ninth member is a CUNY

  professor at Lehman College, also in the District, who is

  a nationally recognized mathematician who plays a key

  role in teacher education for New York City.

                 Community School Board 10 has pass a

  resolution which details our recommendations for a

  continuation of elected school boards, with some

  important modifications.  One of these modification,

  since this has come up earlier today, is to have

  nonpartisan elections every two years in November to

  coincide with the state elections for representatives in

  Albany.  So there would be greater voter turn out and no

  additional cost to the City Board of Elections.

                 Our President of our School Board, Cordel

  Schacter (phonetic), will be sharing the specifics of our

  resolution with you this evening.  But my purpose here

  this morning is to focus directly on the benefits of

  parental involvement in school governance.

                 It is obvious that there are some means

  for parent to be involved in their own child's local

  school.  Unfortunately, to date, those efforts have

  tended to focus more on fund raising, and was mentioned

  about Children First.  I know Chancellor Klein and his

  staff, I heard Diana Lamb (phonetic) speak at a policy

  breakfast last week.  They're making it a priority to

  encourage more parental involvement in instruction, such

  as training parents how to support their children's

  academic development.  And the New York City Department

  of Education's website I must say is already much more

  parent-friendly than it used to be.

                 But, people have talked about school

  leadership teams.  I was a member of the school

  leadership team before I was elected to the School Board,

  and they have very limited participation by parents.

  It's very hard for most parents to be able to

  participate.  At our school, it was day time meetings.

  It was quite a commitment.  And they were generally, I

  think a lot of them were just rubber stamps for the

  school principal or administration.  I think it's hard

  for them to really have an impact on what happens.

                 But I think there is much to be gained

  from having an official channel for parental and

  community input beyond the level of the local school.  As

  Oliver just said, I see the parents who come to our

  meetings, and they want a forum to express themselves in

  person directly to someone in some official capacity.

  You know, it's very important to have that in a democracy

  to have that kind of venting opportunity.

                 And the other thing is that parents are

  not just parents.  You know, people tend to think oh well

  parents just only care about their own kid or something.

  We're also citizens of the city, the state, and the

  world.  If I can be permitted some New York chauvinism, I

  daresay New York City has some of the most talented,

  accomplished parents around, and we have a lot to

  contribute.  You know, if you can make it here, you can

  make it anywhere.

                 So, and we have the passion, the skills,

  and the expertise.  We are willing to put in long hours

  for no pay to improve the school system.  We are doctors,

  architects, lawyers, public relations practitioners,

  managers, artists, financial wizards.  We are mothers and

  fathers, grandparents, aunts and uncles.  We are retired

  teachers, and former students.

                 And we are important stakeholder whose

  voices will be lost in a system governed only by a single

  elected official, the Mayor.  Why should residents of New

  York City, I imagine the largest single school district

  in the country, or it must be one of the top, why should

  we be denied the right which is taken for granted

  everywhere else; which is to elect a governing body which

  has some direct accountability for the success of our

  schools.

                 And as we've heard from Natalie and from

  other speakers, you know the new Panel on Educational

  Policy does not yet offer a viable form for input, much

  less accountability.

                 We all know how vital a strong public

  education system is for our society.  Democracy can't

  function without a literate populace, and our schools

  can't thrive without the support of all our parents and

  every aspect of the community.  We must all see the

  public schools as our responsibility, and our treasure.

                 I urge you not to abolish some form of

  elected community governance of education in New York

  City.

                 Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  All right, we thank you

  very much, Ms. Marcus.  Mr. Clayton.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Yes, thank you for your

  testimony, Ms. Marcus.  You stated that in the school

  leadership team that you're on, that there was a low

  parent participation.  If there was a mechanism that

  would allow parents who served on these teams to let's

  say not be penalized by their employer because they had

  to attend these meetings, do you think that the

  participation would increase?

                 MS. MARCUS:  Well when I say the

  participation is low, I mean there's a required number of

  parents on the team and we never have a problem coming up

  with that number of parents.  It's just that it seems to

  be selected from a fairly limited pool.  It usually tends

  to be the leadership of the parents association and when

  I was on it, there were parents who were available --

  either women who weren't working or people who were self

  employed, who tended to be able to be flexible to make

  themselves available.

                 I think that also I think the very nature

  of the way it's structured was UFT representatives and

  with the principal and the assistant principal there.

  That if you have a principal who has a certain amount of

  authority in the school, we were able to have some input

  into a homework policy.  We actually are a school that

  was not that big on homework.  We passed a policy that no

  homework on school vacations that's due the day after you

  get back and this kind of thing.

                 But there wasn't that much in terms of

  developing the comprehensive educational plan for the

  school.  You know, people tend to kind of leave that more

  to the school administration and there wasn't really that

  much room for the parents to have a meaningful voice.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Okay, thank you.

                 MS. MARCUS:  Okay.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Rivera.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Good morning, Ms.

  Marcus.

                 MS. MARCUS:  Yes, hi.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  In your opinion, what

  is the difference between the School Board system that we

  have right now and some of the suggestions that we have

  heard which would also call for a board of some kind with

  tweaking, maybe possibly another board, a central board,

  the way parents are selected.  So in other words, I think

  what we've heard, at least for today, is a tweaking of

  the system as it exists right now.

                 Am I correct in assuming that, or do we

  have a different opinion of some of the stuff that we

  have heard here today?

                 MS. MARCUS:  Yeah.  Well I'm speaking

  personally now, rather than -- you know, I mean my School

  Board has passed you know, resolution.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  No, I'm asking you

  for your personal opinion.

                 MS. MARCUS:  I was very intrigued by some

  of Borough President Carrion's suggestions.  I think the

  idea of having some congruence between the Community

  Boards and the School Governance is a good idea.  I

  actually -- before I was on the Community School Board, I

  was the P.S. 81 representative sort of elected by the

  Parents Association to go to the Community Planning Board

  meetings to attend their -- you know, the Community

  Boards do have an Education Committee.

                 But I found that there was very little

  really of relevance down at those meetings.  I mean they

  were kind of more to -- if there was an issue about

  safety, they would pass it along to the police department

  or something.  It wasn't a substantive role.  And it did

  not seem to be the primary function of the Community

  School Board.

                 I'm not locked into any particular

  configuration.  I think that in New York City you can't,

  as Oliver said, you just can't have this totally

  centralized system.  I think what I gather from as a

  parent and an educator is that the trend right now with

  the city is to give the principals more accountability

  and more flexibility, which I think is fine.  You know

  and if principals are doing a good job, to give them a

  little more flexibility how they do their job, rather

  than tying their hands with all these regulations that

  change every year.

                 And to give the principals more autonomy

  and power and to maybe lessen the district level of as an

  intermediate level of administration and governance and

  to have kind of more of a central system, and my fear is

  that then it will be assumed that parents can just be

  active with just their local school.  And I think as

  we've heard here this morning, you know, parents are a

  stakeholder, you know, probably the most important

  stakeholder in the schools.

                 And there's also the issue you see if

  parents don't feel that they're involved in a meaningful

  way, you're going to lose a lot of the parents who have

  the most to contribute.  You know if they start seeing

  the school system as something that they have totally no

  voice in, then they're going to start sending their kids

  to other schools.  And you know a lot of people are very

  concerned now with the federal No Child Left Behind, that

  this issue now of transferring any child from a failing

  school can transfer to a school that's not as a way of

  back into the voucher system.

                 And you know, I'm just a very firm

  believer in public education.  I think we have to be very

  careful that we don't undermine that here in New York

  City.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we all want to

  thank you very much for being with us here this morning

  and for your important service on Community School Board

  10.  We very much appreciate your remarks and your

  recommendations.  Thank you.

                 Let me remind those people who are in the

  room or can hear me, we do have a translator available

  here in the room today.  So if anybody does need

  translation services in the back, Nancy just raise your

  hand.  We have Nancy's expertise and services available

  and thank her.

                 And again, I'm going to just remind people

  that Terri Thomson who is the Co-Chair of this Task Force

  who had shoulder surgery just 24 hours ago, is listening

  by phone.  So she is getting the benefit of all of this

  testimony as well, in between taking pain killers, I

  assume.

                 Our next witness is Betsy Combier who is

  President and Founder of e-Accountability.com and also of

  the Parents Advocates Organization.

                 MS. COMBIER:  Hi, good morning.  I was

  here on December 10th and I dropped off a document which

  some of you may have read.  I'm president of actually

  four companies and I'm actually here today to speak as a

  parent of four children, three of whom were at a private

  school.  I took them out of private school and I put them

  all in public education because I bought the entire

  schpiel of public education in this country, hook, line

  and sinker.

                 I said this country is a democracy.  We

  are proud to be American, free education for everybody,

  equal opportunity, and I'm very fortunate to have my own

  money, so the schools that my children ended up in got

  benefit of my money, my fund raising abilities.  I put

  myself behind every single word that I have ever said.

                 Then I got elected president of the PTA of

  the school on the upper west side.  And I studied the

  regulations.  I happen to have a new copy of the

  Chancellor's Regulations that just came out.  I'm also a

  paralegal.  I've studied the law.  I actually have the

  law on my computer just in case I forget one.  And I, as

  PTA President, took on every single child in this

  building, more of whom were black and Hispanic.

                 And along the way, being a journalist and

  a reporter, I had lived in Egypt, Israel, and Jordan for

  five years.  I've found out some information that was not

  okay with what I understood to be part of the

  regulations, law, whatever.  And I indeed found out that

  there were full inclusion children not on the roster of

  the school and their parents got no benefits, nothing.

  And I wrote a grievance against the principal and I was

  immediately retaliated against by the School Board

  setting up a special PTA meeting and a Review Committee

  to investigate me for incompetency and they were mailing

  out a letter describing me as incompetent to all the

  parents in the school, asking for comments.  And then the

  Superintendent funded an e-mail address, and I could go

  on and on.

                 But basically what I'm trying to say is to

  cut it short, is I didn't go away.  I was threatened.  My

  daughter was hurt.  She was harassed and taunted.  And

  I'm not going away.  I went the other direction.

                 I started reaching out to parents in the

  school, in the district, in the city by way of e-mail.  I

  have a couple of Master's Degrees; one is in computer

  technology.  And I find that e-mail is a wonderful tool

  to not only instantly reach out and say what's happened

  to you?  What do you know is going on in your school?

  And to find out that citywide, the Regulations of the

  Chancellor, the policies that are being sent to us from

  superintendents and principals are not being applied

  equally across the board.  They are being selectively

  complied with.

                 And in terms of the governance and I think

  you have my documents there, when we speak about

  accountability, this I may offer and suggest is very

  important.  But it's also without any qualifying words.

  I mean people when they talk about accountability say, I

  didn't say that.  No you can't do that and I didn't do

  that.  Well, if you did it, that's what we can work with.

  But let's try whatever form of governance you set up, not

  to attack the messenger.

                 The other thing I would suggest is that we

  need to establish transparency.  There isn't any.  And

  I'll give you an example.  A young child had a one to one

  paralegal in an elementary school and the paralegal was

  taken away from him because there was no money.  So I

  called District 75 and I foiled the Board of Ed in order

  to get District 75's budget to find out what kind of

  money would be available and I was told that I would

  never get the information.

                 So I could go on and on, but basically I

  have a document here on accountability, transparency,

  very important.  No matter what form of governance

  replaces the school boards, I would offer that without

  that, you're not going to be credible in anything that

  you do.  You are not going to bring parents in.  They

  know who is credible, who has stood at what they were

  supposed to do and done it.  We're e-mailing each other.

  We're telephoning each other.  We're getting the

  information out horizontally very quickly, within five

  minutes.

                 I also would offer that whatever

  governance takes the place of Community Boards, that you

  elect every member and that every member does have a

  child in the public school system.  There are wonderful

  people who can do wonderful work alongside of somebody

  who has a child.  But we have to be stakeholder.  If we

  speak to people who are not stakeholder, and they're in a

  position of doing something and they don't do it, then

  the whole Board becomes not credible.

                 So the other thing that I gave all of you

  today was that on the Internet yesterday, I found a

  wonderful Best Practices that perhaps you could add into

  your reading.  It's a little bit lengthy, but I found the

  Michigan Public Policy, I don't remember the name of it

  exactly.  But they have done a wonderful job in looking

  at all of the elements that governance of school boards

  should look at.  And I included that and I copied,

  several copies.

                 So, thank you.  Any questions?

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we thank you.

  We're indebted to you.  I know that you have been not

  only at today's hearing, but I know you were at -- I

  think it was Manhattan's -- the first hearing we had.

  And when you observed at the outset that you're not going

  away, I know that.  Because almost every meeting I go to,

  almost any place in the City of New York, Betsy Combier

  is there to offer her experience and her expertise and

  observation.

                 So, we thank you for that again, here this

  morning or this afternoon.  Do we have any questions?

                 Well we do have thick documents that you

  have provided to us.  This will be part of our reading

  and our consideration and undoubtedly, we will see you

  again.  And we're grateful for that.  Thank you.

                 Our next witness is Herman Francis, who is

  a member of Community School Board Number 7.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Good afternoon to the Panel

  and to the audience.  One thing I don't lack is being

  precise and concise.  Community input into public

  education should not be limited to an advisory role of

  appointed candidates.  They have a tendency not to take a

  proactive approach to situation and do not fully reflect

  the best interests of the community.  A board made up of

  elected candidates would be more open to idea, devise in

  their makeup and ambitious with their concern of the

  quality of education in the community.

                 Community School Boards do work.  There

  are over five thousand school boards nationwide and

  approximately seven hundred in New York State.  In New

  York City the conflict is over power; the control of

  power.  The community is to be put in the position before

  decentralization, to be seen and not heard.  This ia a

  recipe for disaster, as the Central Board in control has

  lacked ambition and clear vision.  The electorial process

  should be preserved with checks and balances.  And

  there's plenty evidence for that, as we can see over the

  past number of years that various elected officials have

  been indicted and convicted, and yet we have not changed

  electorial process for various elected officials.

                 Also I wish the Bronx Rep on the State

  Board of Regents that stayed with all due respect to your

  19th Amendment, because people come to the United States

  or North America for economics.  Basically they want to

  eat more regular and eat better due to politics of their

  home land.  If they aren't going to change the policitic

  in their home land, what makes you feel they're going to

  change the politics in the United States and North

  America.

                 As in closing, I feel that we should give

  clear thought to reserving the electorial process.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we thank you.

  That was right to the point.  And --

                 MR. FRANCIS:  I'm open to questions if

  anybody has anything to give to me.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We have -- I think we

  have your statement.  We also have some back up material

  that you have provided to us, Decade of Turmoil, as well

  as a study that you provided to us which we appreciate,

  as well as an article by John Fager (phonetic) who also

  testified at these hearings.

                 Do we have any questions?  Assembly Member

  Green.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Yes, sir.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Good afternoon.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Good afternoon.  I

  think most folks would agree that there should be some

  kind of checks and balances with respect to a more

  centralized Central Board and then so the next question

  is how might the Local Boards provide those checks and

  balances?

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Well we know for a fact that

  most parents are not, how you say politically inclined

  and not politically astute.  But yet the electoral

  process as I've learned is simply the best checks.  If

  you do not perform, you are voted out.  If you mess up

  any way down the line, you are out of there, period.

  Also I feel a course should be set up if someone's not in

  urban government.  And as the Borough President, who I

  disagree with some of his points, I believe a course

  should be set up for those who wish to go into community

  service; internship or what have you.  Something should

  be placed in that -- right there, so parents who do

  provide the clientele for the school system would be more

  politically astute.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Friedman?

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Good afternoon, Mr.

  Francis.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Good afternoon, sir.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Maybe you could tell me a

  little bit about Community Board 7 and how Community

  School Board 7 works; your relationship with the

  Superintendent, your relationship with the parents, full

  background.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Well as you well know, the C-

  30 process have been eliminated, which is going to be a

  disaster also, because you're talking about the

  Chancellor forcing the Superintendent who the community

  might not accept, which is going to cause more turmoil.

                 Also, School Board members are supposed to

  be advocates, gate keepers for their community at

  providing a quality education.  But it's apparent to us

  here that basically New York State has failed to define

  what exactly is public education.  I know that there's

  appeals going on the funding into New York City and the

  surrounding boroughs.

                 And basically the schools in the district

  are doing their resources, because basically most of the

  schools are run as prisons.  You have students kept in

  there, confined for six or seven hours a day.  They don't

  go nowhere.  They do not have the interact.  I've been

  proposing all along that every Friday take the children

  out as part of the classroom and structure the curriculum

  so they will learn how to interact.  I ran a midnight

  program for basketball at Edan Wall Houses.  I took some

  youngsters there to a game at Long Island University.

  They did not know how to conduct themselves on the subway

  system.  They thought it was a game.  A couple of them

  almost got hurt, horsing around and falling onto the

  tracks.

                 But basically when I sit down -- we have a

  Board meeting this afternoon and you can count the number

  of parents who come out on one hand.  It shows apathy

  across the board.

                 As far as holding elections in November,

  forget about it.  What are you going to do?  Hold an

  election in November and put a new Board in in January,

  in the middle of the term?  That doesn't play it.

                 If the parents are real concerned about

  their children, they will do their homework.  Because the

  best education is self education and come out.

                 I'm going to close with this, right here.

  A number of years back a movie was made with Glen Ford,

  Vick Morrow and a youthful looking city foyer called

  "Black Boy Jungle," made back in the 50's.  It depicted

  life in a city high school in New York City.  And yet as

  more things changes, more things stayed the same.  Why?

  Teachers attempted rape; gangs and clicks running around

  in the school system; chaos in the classroom; teachers

  getting beat down.  We're talking about the 50's here.

  And here, we're in the year 2002.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  And Central Board still have

  control of the high schools.  And yet those same high

  school students are the parents of the youngsters we have

  today in the elementary school.  So what you're talking

  about right here basically is going to certain.  We need

  everybody to take a fight.

                 The reason I got on the School Board for

  one reason only.  The behavior I see out there in that

  street is a product of a failed educational system.  I'm

  talking about a content of character, which eat parents

  as they go to the high school and half of them fail to

  graduate, fail to instill in their offspring.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Clayton.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Mr. Francis thanks for your

  testimony here today.  How are you doing.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Good afternoon, sir.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  When you say the chaos you

  see out there in those streets, you literally mean those

  streets.  This is District 7, right?

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Correct sir.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  And District 7 is one of our

  low performing districts.  There's no secret.  More than

  half of the schools are on the SURR list I believe.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  No, one third.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Okay, one third.  Now as a

  Community School Board member, the current governing body

  of this district, this failure didn't just happen over

  night.  It's been going on for years, so you can't say

  that the School Board has lost its power.  When it did

  have clout, this failure was still going on.

                 So now do you hold the Community School

  Board members accountable, responsible for the academic

  failure in this district, or do you point the finger at

  Central?

                 MR. FRANCIS:  There's enough weight for

  everybody to share the blame.  When decentralization came

  in for community control, community input, parents have

  to make the sacrifice.  My parents did for me.  My

  father, may he rest in peace, they broke down and bought

  a set of encyclopedias.  You go to most parent's

  household now, they don't have a book in the house, let

  along an encyclopedia, a dictionary or a thesaurus.

                 I talked to parents -- most of the kids --

  okay, hearing conversations without being cruel, profane,

  or vulgar, and basically loud.  They tend to project

  themselves.  And yet the parents want children.  And what

  the parents before and what they teach.  They are chasing

  some kind of force attitude which feels that education is

  on a back burner, until they get in the real world and

  realize that something's back there.

                 I feel basically that the resources need

  to be pumped into the community, starting with the

  concept of comprehending what life is all about.  And to

  come back to the same thing of constant character.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we all thank you

  very much Mr. Francis for your very passionate and I

  think very insightful statements to this Panel and we

  certainly take into heart your recommendations.  Thank

  you, sir.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Thank you.  Have a good

  afternoon.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  Our next

  witness is Mr. Albert V. Tuitt, Sr., Special Committee on

  Internal Affairs for the NAACP.  That's a very intriguing

  title, Internal Affairs.

                 MR. TUITT:  Very intriguing.  Good

  afternoon.  First let me compliment all of you for being

  here, because I've been to hearings where I've spoken to

  a tape recorder, et cetera.

                 My name is Tuitt, T-u-i-t-t, not Tutt.

  They just made a mistake, so it's Tuitt.  Like go to it.

                 I'd just like to make a couple of comments

  before I read the remarks that I have prepared for today.

  And one of the things I understand you are going to come

  up with some form of governance.  In our School Board, we

  had the instance, which I just want you to relate to

  where the School Board took the Superintendent, and under

  the spirit of law and the whole idea of the School Boards

  being allowed to submit -- namely they would submit three

  names, five names, et cetera, so that the Chancellor

  could pick from them.

                 So they submitted one name and as a

  reporter from a newspaper told me a few months early, he

  said the fix was in.  So they actually went around the

  spirit of law, sent in one name to the Chancellor and the

  Chancellor approved that one name.  So a lot of us feel

  that this was an inside job.  So I think you ought to

  look at that in terms of how you write the new laws.

                 The other thing a lot of the speakers who

  spoke before me spoke about despite School Boards, a

  school's working, I think that's one of the big problems

  in New York City, when fifty percent, forty to sixty

  percent of our children are below standard level, they're

  not working and they haven't worked for a long time.

                 I don't have the power to change it, but I

  think one of the problems is we still say, well it's

  working.  Our kids are doing all right.  I'm not

  satisfied with fifty percent, and I went through it with

  my own children, and now with my grandchildren.  But I'm

  just not satisfied with fifty percent and I don't think

  any of us should be satisfied.

                 The third thing I wanted to talk about,

  one person said that School Boards are elected all over

  the state and why should we be deprived of electing our

  School Boards.  The other problem is that we are

  inequitably funded.  School Boards all over the state are

  funded, but New York City is funded differently and

  that's something we're trying to address through the CFE,

  but it's something we also have to pay attention to when

  we talk about the importance of New York City and New

  York State.  That's one of the problems.  We're just not

  treated fairly.

                 Now I will relate to a prepared statement.

  It says good morning, but it is afternoon.  My friend and

  colleague Roger Green and Peter Rivera I worked for an

  Assemblyman a few years ago when I met both of these

  gentlemen.

                 I'm Albert V. Tuitt, Sr., a lifetime

  Bronxite, former president and presently treasurer of the

  Williamsbridge Branch NAACP, Chair of the Special

  Committee on Internal Affairs of the New York State

  Conference of the NAACP Branches, a product of the New

  York City Public Schools, a proud product of the New York

  City Public Schools, father and grandfather of student

  who have either attended or are attending public schools

  in New York City.

                 For too many years I have been actively

  involved with the public schools as the first male

  president of a Parents Association in Community School

  District 11, a candidate for the first Community School

  Boards elected by the people, and an officer in parents

  associations in public schools at every level.  Among

  many leadership roles in civic and community

  organizations, I have also served as the first vice

  president of Community Planning Board #12.

                 I say "for too many years" because our

  students in public schools have gone through hell as the

  New York State Legislature has "tinkered" with the

  system, compromising at every point to try to please

  everybody, without being successful in implementing a

  governance system which would positively respond to their

  needs and requirements.  From appointed school boards, to

  "community control," to elected school boards with

  responsibility for hiring and firing, then to boards

  without that responsibility, to June 30, 2003 when

  community school boards as they are presently constituted

  will be eliminated.

                 Parents must have a group outside of

  government or the educational system to represent them

  when decisions on local public education are made.  I

  believe strongly that we should organize youth, parents,

  community, and business representatives around middle

  schools.

                 It's just funny in the 30 years that I've

  been involved, we've change the name of middle schools,

  high school.  One of the problems with this particular

  plan which is not a new one, but I always felt that the

  junior high school and the feeder schools were an

  important ingredient, was that now many, some of the

  schools are going from K to 8 or trying to go to K to 8.

  Even now we have a couple of K to 12's, as communities

  are trying to isolate themselves.  But I think there's

  still a preponderance of middle schools in our city.

                 Our present community districts are too

  large and often are not homogeneous.  The overly narrow

  view of each local school where principals consider any

  community involvement as intrusive, and "inside" parents

  omnipotent, are also not desired governance units.

                 The NAACP has implemented a "Call To

  Action In Education" plan that outlines our program on

  improving the educational system nationally.

                 It's on our web site.  So if anybody

  wanted to get it, that's NAACP.org and you can pick up

  the complete plan as is on there.  That outlines -- I

  believe that the Task Force has already received a copy

  of this plan.

                 Additionally, the NAACP historically has

  maintained a commitment to excellence in education for

  all student throughout this nation, and particularly in

  New York State we have developed an "Adopt a School

  Program" which has been successful in some districts here

  in New York City and across the state.  Ironically, there

  are non-believers who treat the idea of a partnership in

  trying to solve a problem, as a hidden attempt to take

  over the school.

                 We trust that whatever reform the task for

  recommends, you recognize that we have already lost

  generations of children through the inadequacy of the

  governance programs which have been legislated in the

  past 30 years, and we hope that your mediations would not

  lose focus of the fact that our students future success

  is dependent on the legislature's action.  Respectfully

  submitted.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Tuitt we are

  indebted to you for being here this afternoon.  We've

  been very fortunate in the first two hearings we've held

  in Manhattan and Queens to have had representatives of

  the NAACP from different chapters around the city and the

  testimony they have given has been very significant.  And

  you are correct, we have received the "Call To Action In

  Education Plan" from the NAACP.  We appreciate that.  I

  just want to briefly observe what I've observed with some

  of your other brothers and sisters who have been at these

  proceedings.

                 All of us on this Panel, on this Task

  Force recognize the enormous contribution that the NACCP

  has made for a half a century and more going back to

  Brown v. Board of Education  in 1954.  Before and since

  the NAACP has been one of the outstanding leadership

  organizations, particularly in the field of education and

  civil rights.

                 So it's particularly meaningful to all of

  us to have the NAACP representatives out and in strong

  force at these hearings and your testimony has been as

  your other colleagues equal to the task and we appreciate

  it.

                 Questions?  Assembly Member Green.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Yes.  Good to see you,

  Mr. Tuitt, as usual.  My question is I know you've had --

  you've been active in the parent association, school

  boards and then also you've served as Vice President of

  the Community Planning Board #12.  Is there something

  given the critique and I think an honest critique of some

  of the failings of some of the school boards,

  particularly as it relates to problems with patronage,

  you know things of that nature.  Is there something that

  we can learn from the Community Planning Boards as we

  look at the reconfiguration of the School Boards?

                 MR. TUITT:  Well I still attend Planning

  Board meetings and School Board meetings, almost 90

  percent of them every year.  I have an advocation.  I

  publish a newspaper, so that's one of the reasons I go to

  those meetings.  But the Planning Board has constituted

  our political organizations within.  Actually people who

  are on Planning Boards get knocked off because they

  weren't favoring the ideas of the people who appoint

  them.

                 In our particular Planning Board we have

  three councilman whose service we've talked about having

  59 Boards to be congruent with the Planning Boards.  We

  have three councilmen who have representation on our

  Planning Board.  So I think -- I don't really think

  Planning Boards are that effective.  But there is an

  opportunity -- actually the staff of the Planning Boards

  are effective, the people who work.  You can go there for

  problems.  You know, and they take care of problems.  The

  Board themselves, I don't think are really that

  effective.  Because a lot of the power that they have is

  a bigger power than them.  So even if they vote one way,

  it's goes down to State Planning Commission or whatever,

  you know, and they knock it out.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  The other question I

  have is has the Winge Bridge Branch taken a position, or

  has the State Conference, or the NAACP has taken a

  position on the issue of the possibility that there could

  be a recommendation to not allow for elected boards and

  how that impacts on voting rights issues?

                 MR. TUITT:  Not at all.  We've taken a

  position that basically we approve, not in this School

  Board as in quotation, but that parents should be

  involved in elected positions in deciding school policy.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Clayton.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Yes.  Thank you very much,

  Mr. Tuitt, for your testimony.  Now you were saying that

  Community Planning Boards are in your opinion are not

  that effective.  But they are made effective by the staff

  they have, that carries out the day to day operations for

  them.

                 So in the Task Force's charge in trying to

  put together a recommendation that would be feasible for

  the community, do you think having a staff person in that

  mix to carry out their day to day duties would help?

                 MR. TUITT:  I think this -- I was thinking

  about it this morning as the Borough President talked

  about probably trying to put together the Planning Board

  and the School Board, because most Planning Boards have a

  facility.  In fact we have a lowly facility in District

  #12 with rooms and offices and I think some of the staff

  -- you know, we're talking about if you get rid of the 33

  School Boards, where would you put them or how would you

  replace them.

                 But there could be a possibility that we

  could save some money by situating the staff in the

  Planning Boards.  But I still think that the

  Superintendent of the District should still be in charge

  of the staff.  I think that's where you have to go.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Rivera,

  then Miss Kee.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Good afternoon, Al.

  How are you?

                 MR. TUITT:  Hi.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Quick question, if

  you were to pick one or two or three things that you

  would take from the currently -- from the current powers,

  from the way School Boards are currently constituted, and

  transfer it to what we're trying to do, what would those

  very, very few things, what would they be?

                 MR. TUITT:  Well of course they're

  mandated to have a public meeting and that's important.

  There should be a place where the public can voice their

  opinions, and that's number one.

                 I think they're in the C-30 selection

  process, I think they should be involved in that, and in

  picking a superintendent or at least recommending someone

  to be -- just to be involved in the whole process of

  selecting a principal.  And I think the third thing was

  to keep -- see unfortunately, I think a lot of the powers

  of the School Boards have been stripped and which make

  them -- a lot of the people don't even go to the meetings

  anymore, because they're meaningless.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  But forgetting about

  that for the time being.

                 MR. TUITT:  Yeah, okay.  What else would I

  keep that they have the power?  Not off the top of my

  head, I don't remember.  The fact that they have to have

  a public meeting and they are involved in selecting the

  superintendents.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Kee?

                 MS. KEE:  Mr. Tuitt, thank you so much for

  your testimony and also the contribution of your

  organization.  I can see where we might be able to do

  something about structure and how it should be organized.

                 But do you have any ideas about how to

  change the psyche of -- my feeling is that education is

  somehow an emotional, also an emotional reaction.  When a

  child enters the classroom, and I've heard it said that

  by the third grade, some of our children feel that

  they're non-learners, they cannot learn.

                 How do we get to change the whole psyche

  that our education can succeed and our children can

  learn.  They have to be given the success experience in

  feeling successful.

                 MR. TUITT:  You guys have a tough job.

  Structurally, I really don't know.  My own position on it

  and it's -- I feel that parents are one of the biggest

  problems.  I don't blame the Administration or the

  Legislature for the problems that we have in education.

  I think parents are biggest problem.  And I mean, our

  branch of the NAACP, we've mailed out 800 letters to --

  you know, we've tried to help out a school, adopt a

  school and we got 15 parents showed up.  That's the

  problem.  That's like a big problem.  How do we get

  people involved in their children.

                 Right now I have a program that I'm

  working with, with the churches in our community, trying

  to have the churches get the youngsters who go to public

  school organized by church.  And it hasn't been

  successful.  We sent out a survey letter and we got like

  -- we sent the survey out to 2,000 people and I think we

  had 15 answers.  And they say well parents didn't want to

  put their names on it, so we said we'll take their names

  off because they're afraid.  I live in a community which

  is highly immigrants, so they said they're afraid to put

  their names on because they don't want their names out

  there, you know.  So we took the names off the survey.

  Not necessarily anonymous, just sign what class -- not

  even the name of the children, just what class they're

  in, how many kids you have.  We got about -- a very small

  return.

                 So, my own idea is we take one school at a

  time, put all the resources of the community into that

  one school, whether it be the Planning Board, the

  Community Activist Organizations, get that school

  straightened out and we can do it.  I mean we have

  schools in our community -- I mean we have high and low

  schools.

                 You know, one of the problems that I have

  is that District #11 in the Bronx is the best district in

  the Bronx.  And it's -- but we're not satisfied with

  that.  You know, certainly not satisfied.  But we go

  around saying we're the best.  So people say you're the

  best, what do you need?  But you know, the best at 50

  percent is not acceptable.

                 So I just feel that the old Communist

  thing, you draw circles, take one school at a time and

  try to improve them.  That was the old Communist

  philosophy.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. DeLeon.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Mr. Tuitt, thank you for

  coming.  You're suggesting parent apathy.  My question

  is, do you feel in your opinion is that a result of them

  feeling disenfranchised or not having any stakeholding

  status at all?

                 MR. TUITT:  I think parents and most

  people don't come out unless they're threatened.  If you

  threaten them with something, that your kids are going to

  be kicked out of school, they might come.  I don't -- you

  know, I think maybe it's the whole generation of the kids

  sitting in front of the T.V. being babysat by the

  television set has maybe some bearing on it.  But whether

  it's cold, warm, in the afternoon or the evening, doesn't

  make any difference.  But again, don't try to change the

  whole system in that sense and you just got to go by --

  I'm not talking about you.  I'm talking about

  individuals.  You just got to go school by school.

                 Because I think on a one to one basis with

  parents and I've done some mentoring in schools, it can

  work.  Parents will come out.  But you can't approach the

  idea on a whole district for argument sake, which is what

  I've been trying to speak to our district when we keep

  throwing out district plans.  You know, take the worst

  school in the district and let's try to improve it.

  Let's throw the good teachers in there.  Let's do the

  security.  Let's do the truancy thing and the phone calls

  and all that stuff, and let's do the mentoring.  And I

  think we can succeed.  And a couple of schools have

  succeeded.

                 You know conversely, we had a junior high

  school which excelled, had more kids, students who went

  to specialized high schools from this one school that

  they said too many, you know, all the other junior high

  schools are complaining that your school gets all the

  specialized school spots at our district.

                 In fact, the principal, he finally retired

  because he felt that he couldn't go any further.  That's

  one of the problems.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well Mr. Tuitt, again,

  we are all indebted to you and to the NAACP for your

  wisdom, your advice, your years of hard work on behalf of

  all of the citizens of New York and the boarders beyond.

  So we thank you so much for being here.

                 MR. TUITT:  Thank you and have a happy

  holiday.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  All right,

  let me make an announcement at this point in time.  We

  have two witnesses who we are going to hear from before

  we take a lunch recess, and those two witnesses are

  Gladys Rosenblum and Robert Press.  And at the conclusion

  of those testimonies, we will take a relatively brief

  lunch break.

                 All right, Gladys Rosenblum is the

  Executive Director of the Loisaida, Inc.

                 MS. ROSENBLUM:  I'm also a new public

  member of CB-3 on the Youth Committee.  So I just wanted

  to add that.

                 Thank you very much for hearing my

  statement this morning.  As he said, I'm the Executive

  Director of Loisaida, Inc.  We're a community based

  organization providing after school and youth development

  to over 600 youth on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.

  The majority of the families who we serve are Latino.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Excuse me.  I think

  we're having problems hearing you.  The mic is on.  Just

  speak a little close to the mic.

                 MS. ROSENBLUM:  Closer, okay.  Loisaida

  provides after school and youth development to over 600

  youth on the Lower East side of Manhattan.  The majority

  of the families we serve are Latino.  In our after school

  programs more than 50 percent of the children live in

  homes where English is a second language and 20 percent

  live in the local Tier II Family Homeless Shelter.

                 Any family involvement must take into

  consideration the enormous amount of immigrants that are

  in our city.  They care tremendously about their

  children, especially about their education.  In many

  cases, the reason that have sacrificed and struggled to

  come to the United States is to ensure their children's

  future.  They know that education will be the most

  significant key to helping their children succeed.  It is

  vital that the system we set up now to replace the School

  boards give all families with children in the school

  system a meaningful chance to participate or at the very

  least have their concerns represented.

                 In order for this to happen, several

  things must be kept in mind.  Whatever forum is created,

  it must take into consideration that every district has

  many languages that are spoken by the families.  There

  must be a vehicle to communicate with as many parents as

  possible, even if they do not speak English, and in some

  cases, they may not be literate in their own languages,

  requiring us to make extra effort to reach out to them.

  And I mean that we can't necessarily write to them in

  their own languages.  We must also remember that some

  parents have not had positive experiences themselves with

  the school system, or come from countries where authority

  is not to be questioned or challenged.  These are

  families who require us to be sensitive to reach out to

  them and ensure we are partners in helping all the

  children of our great city to succeed.

                 And I just want to add, I think that

  something really important that everybody doesn't

  understand our system.  Everybody doesn't come from a

  system like ours.  So that when we send a survey or do

  something, they may not understand what that means.

                 Each community also has many programs,

  groups, and non-profits that provide after school and

  other important services that children and families need

  to address the problems and issues that impact greatly on

  a child's success in school.  Together we form an

  enormous strong partnership with the schools and families

  to help our young people learn and fulfill their dreams.

                 Today, the Latino community has the

  highest high school dropout rate in New York City.  This

  is one area that no one wants to be first in.  It is a

  problem that will require a road range of solutions and

  services that the schools alone cannot provide.  Our

  parents want to see their children be at the tope and I

  know the schools want all their students to succeed, so

  it seems we are in agreement that there should be no

  dropout rate at all.  The solutions will require a broad

  partnership with the schools, including families and

  community based programs that are also working to address

  the problems and issues that lead to school failure and

  dropouts.

                  The schools currently have Leadership

  Teams that include parent representation that are part of

  the district Leadership Team.  They currently look at

  numerous issues related to schools.  I recommend this

  Task Force explore how this Team could be strengthened to

  replace the School Board and not necessarily create

  another new entity.  The new Leadership Team must include

  significant parent representation and also

  representatives from a brad spectrum of service providers

  that meet the wide variety of needs that impact learning

  and school success.  I strongly urge the Task Force to

  include representation of parents and the after school

  programs in the entity that replaces the old School

  Board.

                 Ultimately, we must keep in mind what we

  are trying to do.  What is the role we want this new

  entity to play?  Over the last few months, the New York

  City School chancellor has been holding numerous meetings

  throughout New York City with a wide variety of people

  asking for recommendations for the New York City school

  system.  These meetings included parents, students,

  community-based organizations, and after school programs.

                 I urge this Task Force to access the

  information the chancellor has gathered, as I know there

  is a vast amount of information in that report that will

  be helpful to planning a replacement for the New York

  City School Board.

                 This is a great opportunity to look at the

  information they have gathered, and together with the

  information this Task Force has learned, plan a cohesive

  system that works together to ensure all our children

  learn, that all our children graduate and that all our

  children leave the New York City school system well

  prepared to become successful adults in our great city.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we thank you very

  much.  I particularly thank you for traveling from my --

  our Assembly District in Manhattan to be here in the

  Bronx today.

                 I just want to briefly comment on one of

  your last points with respect to the Chancellor's

  activities and our activities.  We are in fact in touch

  with the Chancellor and his office.  We are trying to

  coordinate to some extent their activities with our

  activities and we are told that the Chancellor will

  probably be making a presentation at our last hearing in

  Brooklyn on January 16th to let us know what insight he

  has gleaned from his various forums.  So this is

  something that -- your point was well taken and we are

  trying not to work across purposes to the extent

  possible.

                 MS. ROSENBLUM:  Right.  I just want to add

  a couple of things.  One is that the parents need support

  to be a part of this.  They'll need training.  They will

  need to understand the system and how, what the

  importance of the role is.  And the other thing is, maybe

  there is points that children enter our system, when

  parents are first putting their children in the system,

  very, very excited and very hopeful.  So maybe that's a

  point where we could really give orientation to parents

  and as part of those initial interviews, when they're

  signing all the forms, we could really explain our system

  to them and explain the power that they have.

                 So that's just one thing I want to urge.

  And I want to say this one last thing.  And this isn't to

  what you just said, earlier question.  When I was in high

  school, by the time I was 15, I had lost both my parents

  in three years.  And I was making it through.  I wasn't

  an A student.  I'm going to confess to you.  But all my

  friends got into the school college placement class.  I

  didn't get in.  So I ran down to my grade advisor and I

  said I didn't get in the class.  And the woman without

  missing a beat said, we didn't think you were college

  material.

                 So when you ask that question, and I work

  with children.  I spent two years directing a homeless

  shelter with families, when you want to know some things,

  I'm not blaming all the problems on one thing.  Some of

  it is who we hire to inspire our children, to tell them

  when they don't believe in themselves or maybe their

  families don't believe in them, that we believe in them

  and we'll find a way to help them succeed.  Maybe the

  won't all go to college.  But there are opportunities out

  there.  This is America.  We have a lot of opportunity

  for a broad range of skills and abilities.  We just have

  to help those young people find that.

                 So we have to be really careful who we

  hire.  Because today, with my two Master's Degrees and

  that second one, I'll be really honest to each one of

  you.  I got to prove that lady wrong.  Okay?  And I just

  tell you that this is really important.  Some people say

  well it's the families, it's this.  So what?  So you're

  born into a family.  Maybe they're not sophisticated.

  Maybe they don't understand.  My grandfather couldn't

  understand every time I kept saying I was getting another

  degree.  He worked in a factory in Brooklyn and came from

  a village in Russia.  He kept saying, "More school?"

  You'd think he thought he had a granddaughter who was

  never going to get a job.  So there's a lot of things.

  You can't point at one thing.  That's all I'm going to

  say.

                 I know you're all hungry so I want to end

  now.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you for that

  addendum.  Mr. DeLeon.

                 MR. DE LEON:  I just wanted to endorse the

  fact that if you tell a child they are successful, they

  will be successful and I point to my middle daughter, who

  is in my opinion, I love the child, but she's average

  intelligence.  And she went to a gifted school because of

  my political ability to make that happen for her and she

  was told she was gifted.  And she believed it.  She is

  now the President of her Sorority and God willing will

  graduate in May and go onto graduate school.

                 So, yes.  If you tell someone they'll be

  successful, they will be successful.  I'm getting

  emotional, because that's how close that kind of thing is

  to a parent.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Kee.

                 MS. KEE:  I can't agree with you more.

  Because I've had similar experience and I know that

  having been a classroom teacher in junior high school,

  which is supposed to be a terrible age, for 34 years, I

  really found that that experience was a very happy time

  for me.  When a child comes in to the room and a teacher

  realizes that this child has been through the system,

  he's been labeled as a trouble maker, and all the kids

  around him say, here's the bad guy or bad girl, whatever

  you say.

                 And the teacher looks at this child with a

  great deal of caring and sort of puts a different light

  on.  Like oh, this is the child that's going to be

  helpful and try to find a skill that this child could

  have.  And then you see the whole group in the class

  change their attitude.  And this, I think that having

  served on a Task Force or police and community, there is

  a way in which beginning teachers come into the system

  that we give them the tools to understand how much their

  attitude about children -- the very brilliant, gifted

  children do not need us.  But the child that has special

  needs, this is where the teacher can show the best that

  she has to offer and I think that we have to start with

  our teachers and also patenting skills.

                 We used to have community family workers.

  We used to send in family workers, but that has been

  discontinued.  We don't have family workers anymore.

                 MS. ROSENBLUM:  Just as you said, we're

  fortunate to get a really wonderful grant from the Robert

  Hood Foundation.  We are taking 60 fifth and sixth

  graders from P.S. 188 and we're going to work with them

  all the way through to college.  We sent out letters and

  we had an open house and we invited the parents, and we

  got some of the parents.  But needless to say, the last

  ones are being done through home visits and they're just

  as happy to have their child sign up, as the parents who

  initially came in.  Do I know exactly why they didn't

  send the form back or do I know exactly -- I don't know.

  Maybe they couldn't fill it out.  Maybe they felt funny

  when they heard it was an interview.  I don't know.

                 But we're going to get them in there

  anyway.  It's just in a home visit -- we just have to

  remember there's lots of different ways.  It's not just

  one thing.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we're not done

  yet.  Mr. Levin.

                 MR. LEVIN:  First of all, congratulations

  on your second Master's Degree.  If I can ask, you make a

  very interesting point.  What this Task Force is about is

  not only parental involvement, but community involvement.

  And you point out that a number of organizations that

  really try and work with students after school programs.

                 Do you think it's possible to create and

  have a placement for Community School Boards that

  understands that and institutionally can draw together

  all the elements in a community where that hasn't been

  done before, and I'm including we've heard testimony

  about the role of the church, the role of business, the

  role of the community based non-profit organizations.  Do

  you think we can institutionalize that?

                 MS. ROSENBLUM:  I guess -- I'm also,

  everybody laughs at me, I'm one person who always wakes

  up and thinks today is going to be a better day.  So, I'm

  going to say yes, based upon I think it's who we put on

  there.  I think it's what resources you give them.  I

  think that was a really important point to say.  You

  know, is it going to be staffed.  I mean I just know on

  my day to day how overwhelmed I always am, and when you

  go to these committees and different things and they're

  not staffed, who actually is going to make something.

  You know, all the little stuff that makes the mailings,

  all those things that make something happen, and I think

  that if people keep in mind, and I guess that where so

  the checks and balance, why we're here and why we do what

  we do.  And that's our guiding light.  That we want our

  children to graduate.  We want these things to happen.

                 You know, and always keep that in mind.

  Maybe we can kind of stay away from kind of the things

  that lead us into other things that are not helpful and

  that don't produce good schools.  I mean I think that's

  really going to be key.  And that's my guiding light

  every day in what I do.  Is, you know, what do I want

  from my young people and that's what I can say.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well I can attest to

  the fact that Loisaida is one of the outstanding civic

  organizations I think anywhere in the City of New York

  and we're so grateful for you being here this afternoon

  to share your views and your perspectives with us.

                 MS. ROSENBLUM:  Thank you, so much.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you very much.

                 MS. ROSENBLUM:  Thank you for squeezing me

  in before lunch too.  I really appreciate it.  My kids

  after school party is today.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay.  Before we take a

  lunch recess, we have Mr. Robert Press, Parent Activist,

  New York City parents.

                 MR. PRESS:  Thank you, Assemblyman

  Sanders.  While I spoke last week at a Manhattan meeting,

  things have happened since then that I need to address

  this Panel on.

                 First I will speak on what Borough

  President has said.  I am basically everything that Bronx

  Borough President Carrion wants in a parent, because I am

  the District #10 Representative to the Chancellor's

  Parent Advisory Council where I am also the Bronx

  coordinator for the Council and I was elected by parents.

                 I am not politically connected to any one

  other than the parents and the children in the public

  school system.  I now fully disagree with what Borough

  President Carrion said about Borough Boards, and I would

  not take the position of the Bronx Parent Member on the

  Panel that Miss Valez-Gomez has.

                 First it wasn't offered to me, but I knew

  that the Chancellor was going to have all the power with

  no check and you heard that from Miss Velez-Gomez.

                 I'd like to go to the 20 page bill that

  you passed amending the Education Law in relation to

  reorganization of the New York City School Construction

  Authority and the Board of Education and Community School

  Boards because it is very interesting.

                 For example, on page #13, line 46, Section

  #13, starts paragraph C of the subdivision 2 of Section

  2590-1 of the Education Law as adopted by Chapter 720 of

  the law of 1996 as amended to read as follows:  C,

  Principal shall be selected consistent with the required

  regulations of the Chancellor establishing a process that

  promotes and I will repeat promotes parental and staff

  involvement in the recruitment, screening, interviewing

  and recommendation of candidates.

                 Well, Chancellor Klein has put forth new

  regulations, new C-30 regulations counter to that law.

  He has made the Level I Screening Process which used to

  be a process that included six to ten parents, and up to

  four staff members, now to include only four to seven

  parents and one staff member, and to say that these C-30

  member must come from the School Leadership Team.

                 Now in my school, the first week of

  December, the P.A. was asked to convene an old C-30

  process committee of parents and ten parents volunteered

  to be on that committee.  More than half of them were not

  on the School Leadership Team, including myself.  It

  appears School Leadership Teams were set up to limit and

  reduce parental involvement.

                 By the way, this Task Force here is a

  perfect example of an average District or School

  Leadership Team.  I am sorry if I am so honest or blunt,

  but Assemblyman Sanders, as the principal of the school,

  or the superintendent or as Education Committee Chair,

  you are running this team.  And whatever you will say or

  come up with will be the final thing, as is with the

  school, with the principal or with the district with the

  superintendent.

                 Assemblyman Green, Lavelle, Rivera and

  Assemblywoman Pheffer, are like the staff of a school or

  a district because no matter what they may really think,

  they will ultimately agree with you, Assemblyman Sanders.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  You don't know those

  folks very well.

                 MR. PRESS:  Because they like their

  positions and they don't want to jeopardize them.  The

  rest of the Task Force Panel are like the parents on a

  School Leadership Team.  Most won't or haven't said a

  word at all or probably think what am I really doing here

  and what am I really supposed to do, as many parents on

  School Leadership Teams feel.

                 I have to go back to the 20 page law and

  I'll try and be quick.  When I go to page #18, line #15,

  Section 4 -- pardon me, line #49, Section 2, the Task

  Force shall develop a proposal and make recommendations

  regard the Community School Boards and their powers and

  duties.  Now does that mean that you can -- or I

  interpret that to mean that that means that you can keep

  School Boards in power as Assemblyman Koppell has said.

  To continue with what Councilman Koppell has said, and

  again, don't take this wrong, Assemblyman Sanders,

  because I say just like the Assembly through Speakers

  Silver, changed the law stating that the minimum number

  of students in a school district was fifteen thousand.

  He, through the Assembly, changed the law to say that

  there shall be no minimum number of students in a school

  district.

                 And the reason that he did that was so

  that he could keep District 1 and you could keep District

  2 which were way under fifteen thousand in your Assembly

  Districts.

                 I'm just going to say a few more things,

  that the decentralization law was set up to create an

  unbiased District Board, free of Board of Education

  interference.  As Board of Education employees, we're

  forbidden to run for local School Boards.

                 As you have heard from educational experts

  these few days, there needs to be an unbiased,

  nonpartisan body at the School District level with

  accountability powers and not a rubber stamp.

                  By the way, I hope you do and if you

  should perhaps find a way to keep School Boards in power,

  please have the elections in 2003 and not put them off

  another year as they were.

                 Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you, Mr. Press.

  I think before we break for lunch and before I ask if

  there are any questions, I just think that the record

  does need to reflect that the men and women who are a

  part of this Task Force are all quite independent, quite

  knowledgeable.  This is a very collegial body and even if

  I desire to have the kind of power that you ascribe to

  me, I can assure you that I would not have it.  We have

  already had a number of meetings and we will have more

  meetings and more hearings.  And maybe this will be a

  unique circumstance for a body created by the State

  Legislature.  But it is quite democratic, quite

  independent.  And the views that are ultimately adopted

  and recommendations made on February 15th, I have

  absolutely no doubt we'll represent a true consensus of

  thought of this Task Force.

                 The time now is 1:20.  There are still

  several people on our witness list to testify before the

  evening session; not too many.  We may have some add ons.

  So I think that we will break for lunch and please be

  back by 2:30.

                 Let's be prompt and we will be back at

  2:30 and I think we can expeditiously finish our -- the

  portion of our day time session before we start the

  evening session, 2:30.

                      (Off the record)

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Begin again.  There are

  a few people for this Task Force to hear from during the

  afternoon session.  We have actually a very, very full

  evening session.  Many people who are not able to testify

  during the day, of course working men and women and

  parents and just very busy other people, have taken the

  opportunity to sign up for our evening session.  So I

  expect that therein will be the bulk of our work for

  today will begin at 6:00.

                 Let me just make a few comments for the

  several people who are here, who were not here in the

  morning.  My name is Steve Sanders.  I am the Co-Chair of

  this Task Force on Community School District Governance

  Reform.  The other Co-Chair is Terri Thomson, who had

  shoulder surgery just 24 hours ago and she is auditing

  these proceedings by phone from her bedside, showing real

  true grit.  And she will be hearing all of the testimony.

                 The members of this Task Force who are

  here, most of whom are here, will reintroduce themselves

  in just a moment.  But let me just say, very, very

  briefly, that it is the mandate of the Task Force given

  to us by the State Legislature in a law that was passed

  in June that did a lot of changes in the overall

  governance of the New York City School Districts.  Among

  the provisions of that law was the abolition of the Local

  Community School Boards as we know them.

                 And the anticipation that they would be

  replace, not eliminating community representation, but

  replacing it with some other kind of entity, some other

  kind of structure that we all hope will provide at least

  as great if not greater community and parental input.

                 To that end, the law required the creation

  of this Task Force, 20 members, ten appointed by the

  Speaker of the Assembly, ten appointed by the Senate

  Majority Leader.  We are required to hold at least five

  hearings, one in every borough.  We have held two thus

  far, in Manhattan, one in Queens.  Today we are in the

  great county of the Bronx.  On January the 6th we will be

  on Staten Island.  Our fifth and final hearing will be on

  Thursday, January the 16th.

                 This Task Force is required by law to make

  recommendations no later than February the 15th, 2003 to

  the Legislature and the Governor with respect to our

  proposals as to how we will replace the Local Community

  School Boards as they go out of existence at the end of

  the school year.  Many of our views will undoubtedly be

  informed and shaped to some extent by the public

  testimony that we are receiving around the city.  And I

  know I speak for every member of this Task Force when I

  say we are very grateful for already the dozens, and

  dozens of individuals who have turned out and the many

  dozens more who will still turn out later today and at

  the last two succeeding hearings, public hearings.

                 So let me just ask those members who are

  here, right now.  I ought to just make mention that

  because some of the members also have busy schedules and

  other responsibilities during the course of the day so

  members come in and some go out.  But we have had always

  a very representative turn out of the Task Force members

  to hear all of the testimony.

                 So let me begin to my far left the

  audience's right.

                 MS. MULLEN:  Cassandra Mullen, Howard

  Beach, Queens.

                 MS. ARCE-BELLO:  Jane Arce-Bello from the

  Bronx.

                 MS. MC KENNA:  Rose McKenna from the

  Bronx.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Jack Friedman, North East

  Queens.

                 MR. LEVIN:  Jerry Levin, retired CEO AOL-

  Time Warner.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:  John Lavelle,

  Assemblyperson from Staten Island.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Ernest Clayton, President of

  United Parents Associations of New York City.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Peter Rivera,

  Assemblyman from the Bronx.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Roger Green,

  Assemblyman from Brooklyn.

                 MS. BROWN:  Robin Brown, Chancellor's

  Parent Advisory Council.

                 MS. REDDINGTON:  Bunny Reddington, Staten

  Island.  Currently serving as Vice Chair of Community

  School Board 31.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Robert DeLeon, Manhattan

  Rep.

                 MS. HAHN:  Yanghee Hahn from Flushing,

  Queens, for Asian Immigrants Community.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Very good.  I will also

  make mention and repeat this during the course of the

  afternoon and certainly this evening that we are lucky to

  have a translator available here today.  Nancy is in the

  back.  And if anybody needs English or Spanish

  translation, she is available.  And I'm going to do a

  little tap dancing as we try to re-establish our

  telephonic link up with Terri Thomson from her bed.  You

  all will have to tell her I said very nice things about

  her.  She didn't hear it evidently.

                 I should also, just for the edification of

  the members just indicate that I have every expectation

  at this point that we will complete the afternoon portion

  of our proceedings by 4:00.  But if you look at the

  hearing schedule, the list of witnesses, you will notice

  that we have a tremendously busy schedule this evening.

  So that will require us to really try to begin at 6:00 on

  the dot, and I think that will also require us to give

  the maximum amount of time for the witnesses to testify.

  It will require us to be very judicious with our own

  questions.

                 One of the things that the people who have

  observed these proceedings I think have noted a good

  thing is that there's a lot of give and take between the

  Panel members and the witnesses.  We are not only

  listening, but we are trying to engage in an active way

  and try to really get to the heart of people's views and

  draw out other opinions.

                 I think this evening we'll have to try to

  in the interest of time, we'll have to try to limit our

  questions so that we can complete this evening's

  proceedings, not much later than 9:00.

                 Terri Thomson, can you hear us?  We can.

  Without saying everything I said a moment ago, I

  mentioned that you are auditing these proceedings.  That

  you are the Co-Chair, that you had a little bit of

  shoulder surgery yesterday and that I think the phrase I

  used was you have really shown true grit to be by your

  bedside and to listen to these proceedings.  And it's a

  testament to your interest and your commitment in all

  that is happening here.  And we so much appreciate it.

                 So, I will now begin.  Our first witness

  for this afternoon is Mimi Lieber, who is the Founder and

  Chairperson of Literacy, Inc.  And she also has served

  for many years as a member of the New York State Board of

  Regents and had a very distinguished career there.

                 MS. LIEBER:  Thank you. Do you want me

  here, Steve?

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Yes, please.  As I've

  said to all the witnesses, as I missed not having said

  this a moment ago, we try to limit the testimony to about

  five minutes.  That enables us to have a little bit of

  engagement and we know that you will abide by that

  dictum.

                 MS. LIEBER:  Absolutely.  I will be as

  quick as I can.  I want to thank you all for what you're

  doing.  It's a very important piece of work and it needs

  to be done by a very representative group of people who

  would like to see New York City's children far better

  off.

                 And that's the focus I'm coming to you

  with.  I do not have written testimony because I only

  heard of this opportunity yesterday.  However, somebody

  will be at your Staten Island meeting with written

  testimony and I will reappear, I'm sorry to say for you,

  at your Brooklyn meeting.  And at that time, this will

  have been written down.

                 I'm a sociologist by training.  And I

  built a business in the field of marketing research as a

  consultant to big businesses and I think I understand the

  market and that's what I dream; is an understanding I

  believe of the people out there who want their kids to be

  educated.

                 As some of you know, after leaving the

  Board of Regents where I put in fifteen years for my

  sins, I started an organization on the ground, very

  focused on neighborhoods, because neighborhoods is where

  everything is and where everything happens and I'm

  particularly focused on kids learning to read on time.

  And it seemed to me that there are resources in every

  community, which if organized intelligently could help

  the schools make that happen, and indeed as some of you

  know, Literacy, Inc. or LINK has done extremely well in

  these five years and we've accomplished an enormous

  amount in various neighborhoods in the city and other

  people are asking us how this work is done.

                 And I tell you that just to give myself

  some credentials in experience in the community.

                 I'm focused on two things for the work

  that you're doing.  One is really making parents able to

  be empowered and involved, and the other is that this

  entity, whatever it is you create, have some real

  political clout.  Those are the only two things I know

  for sure.  There are all kinds of other issues.  But

  those two things I believe very strongly.

                 As far as parents are concerned, it means

  that they feel that they're part of the process in the

  system.  Our organization has proposed to the Department

  of Education that there ought to be an orientation

  program for parents of four and five year olds.  Whoever

  heard of an organization not welcoming their new

  customers, particularly if they don't know anything about

  your product and they don't know how to help make things

  successful.

                 So coming from the notion that there

  should be some kind of orientation, in order to bring

  parents into the process, help them know that they have

  in themselves about ninety percent of what we need to

  strengthen and how they can help their kids, this is not

  the subject that we're on today.  But I believe that

  there should be true parent involvement and we should be

  sure that it's not just that little group who wants a

  little bit of local power.  But that we should create a

  much broader capability by having more parents know how

  the school is run, what's expected, know how the system

  works and bring people into the school teams much

  younger, starting off when their kids enter school and

  begin to develop leadership and that's one of the things

  our work does.

                 But I think if you do that, you probably

  don't want the same parents over long periods of time.

  And my recommendation is that a system of allowing lots

  of different parents to be part of this group over time

  so that parents begin to think that this is something I

  may have to do some day, or be asked to do some day, a

  much broader range of parents, not the ones who run for

  office, the ones who are always running the PTA and

  holding onto little bits of power that don't help the

  kids at all.

                 So I would encourage you to begin to think

  of a much more revolving system of parents and ways of --

  and I've be very happy to talk about it more, but I've

  only got five minutes and I want to talk about one other

  thing, and that is political clout.

                 I have given this thought now for 20

  years, ladies and gentlemen.  We have to have the school

  whatevers, co-terminus with something.  The business of

  mushing everything, moneying everything so that nobody's

  responsible for everything has gone on in my view long

  enough for these children.  When the toilets don't work

  in the school, there's nobody who is responsible.  Nobody

  who is political.

                 If you look at the Planning Boards, you've

  got four school districts in every out Planning Board.

  We have a Parks Committee on every Planning Board.  We

  have a Chamber of Commerce Committee on every Planning

  Board.  We have a Youth Committee.  I sat on a Planning

  Board for many years on every Planning Board.  They can

  be put together in business areas where there are no

  children.  But co-terminality gives us the beginning of

  responsibility and it makes it possible for somebody to

  be responsible for this group of children politically,

  somebody's you know what is on the line.

                 Most political Planning Boards are

  appointed by Borough Presidents.  I'm not sure how it

  should be done, that's better.  But there's a lot of

  political ambition on the Planning Boards.  We have to

  have some political ambition that makes sense around our

  children.   Somebody who cares that our kids are doing as

  well as those kids.  There isn't a town in this country

  where there's nobody who knows our kids, how are they

  doing as compared to those kids.  That's the kind of

  advocacy on the part of our kids that we haven't had.

                  There's nobody to get a whole group

  together to be sure they all have uniforms.  Our kids,

  the kids in this neighborhood have to have uniforms for

  their games, whatever games, ball games.  They have to

  have this.  They have to have that.  Let's push for our

  kids.  And I cry easily.  We've carried out a situation

  where nobody knows whose kids they are.

                 I beg you, not to let that go on.  Somehow

  involve parents better and create enough co-terminality

  with something, and it can't be the individual election.

  Because if it's an individual who is elected, as good as

  the Assemblyman is, it's only one person who has

  political clout.  But if you do it with a group, where we

  have some political responsibility, I think it will mean

  something.

                 Thank you very much for your time.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we thank you very

  much, Mimi Lieber.  Again we remember, most of us do your

  many years of hard work and the contributions you made as

  a member of the Board of Regents.  And it was meaningful

  representation that you've provided.

                 Do we have questions?  Yes, Ms. Brown.

                 MS. BROWN:  I have a question.  In terms

  of when you say align to make co-terminus, would you say

  that school district should be aligned with Planning

  Boards?  Should it be aligned with City Council?  Should

  it be aligned with Assembly District lines?

                 MS. LIEBER:  I don't know.  But the best

  thing I can come up with is the Planning Boards because

  they have all those committees and they have 52 members,

  and they have therefore a lot of people who are involved

  in the community.  And to create the energy that we need

  on behalf of our kids, it seems like the obvious co-

  terminality to me.  It's not an objective or moral issue.

  It's a question what could work and even though there are

  more of them than we may want, but in business areas,

  they could be put together for this purpose where there

  are no kids in schools.  It just seems like with a Parks

  Committee and a Youth Committee and a Chamber of Commerce

  Committee and let's Beautify the Neighborhood Committee

  that you have more to work with on behalf of children

  than any other kind of group that I can think of.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Levin?

                 MR. LEVIN:  Just drawing on your own

  business experience, is there a way of really engaging

  business in an educational platform, after all, most

  business people are also parents.  That would help the

  institutional framework that we're trying to devise.  It

  may not provide the political clout that you're talking

  about.  But it may bring a lot of other resources.

                 MS. LIEBER:  Mr. Levin, it does provide

  the political clout and the resources that you're talking

  about.  In the neighborhood work we're doing with LINK,

  we've got the McDonald's running a ninety-nine cent night

  with books and it helps their business and they now see

  these children are as delightful as they are.  It's

  bringing the parents in.  We've got the local candy store

  saying to children I won't sell you sweets in the

  morning.  It hops you up.  Come back for them after.  We

  can involve the neighborhood Y.  Their real estate values

  go up.  Their business goes up.  It's ordinary advance

  common sense that if we look at this community thing as a

  community and understand how a little town works and

  that's what we are, we're a system of little towns.

                 The Citizen's Committee of New York has

  moved us into 400 odd neighborhoods, very useful.  We

  work with them.  They've got eleven thousand Block

  Associations.  Think about eleven thousand Block

  Associations, and how we can use what we already know

  about this city on behalf of our children.  We haven't

  done that.  We've kept the system with all this narrow,

  the whole system of tunnel delivery of money and with

  principals who don't live in their neighborhood, teachers

  who don't live in their neighborhood, and they know it.

                 And yet you bring the community to every

  one of these schools and they say of course, we knew we

  had to do this.  But we don't have the time.  We have to

  create a system that makes that happen, that really

  creates for every child congruence between the relevant

  adults in their life, and that's the candy store owner,

  and the guy down the street, and the teacher and their

  parents.  So that they experience that all these people

  expect the same thing of me.  That's why kids succeed,

  when everyone in their life, expects the same things.

                 We know how to do that, but we don't have

  a system that makes that natural.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Yes, Mr. Levin.

                 MR. LEVIN:  Just a follow up again,

  because you have the marketing and advisory experience.

  So is it possible to create an institution that's

  government based, but pulls all these things together in

  a more integrated basis?  Are you optimistic about that?

                 MS. LIEBER:  Absolutely, totally

  optimistic about it.  All you have to do is to understand

  that everybody would like to work better together.  But

  if you set up the system whereby they are honored for not

  working together, that they're all counting how many

  hours they do this and paid on the basis of what is mine,

  rather than what's ours, you can have a social Welfare

  system where everybody's working on behalf of whole

  families, or you can pay people for how many hours they

  put in on grandpa.  And we learned how stupid that is.

  And that if you look at it as a whole family how much

  more efficient you are.  We've learned it.  We just don't

  bring what we learned from one category into the next

  category.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Rivera.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Good afternoon.  You

  talked about political empowerment, and I guess there

  have been a lot of people who would debate that with you

  about bringing politics into the equation.  And I heard

  what you said about it.  We're not talking politics with

  the big pea, but politics with the little pea, which is

  create a system that engages a whole community, rather

  than parts of communities.

                 But isn't that one of the issues that

  we've had all along when it comes to the old School

  Boards?  A lot of people saw that as too politically

  involved, too politically connected to be able to

  function and that was one of the big drawbacks of the

  "old political system" or at least of the old School

  Board system.

                 MS. LIEBER:  No, what was wrong with the

  old School Boards, many things were wrong with them.  But

  one is they had a lot of pork to pass out.  And when you

  give people money to pass out and they are important in

  their neighborhood because of what they can dish out to

  people, you'll get corrupted.  It doesn't work.

                 But politics are what we do in our

  families every day.  We negotiate for things.  And if

  we're strong and we are negotiating on behalf of

  something important like our children, we have a strong

  voice.  Politics -- I come from a political family.  I

  love politics.  Not politics in the negative sense.  But

  the reality that we are all advocating for something and

  we believe in something and we live in a democracy.  And

  I want to get some energy on behalf of kids.  This kind

  of energy on behalf of children.  They have it in

  Scarsdale.  We just don't have it for our children.

  We've acted as though they're not worth it.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Green.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  Question, on the

  question of politics can be played out in context of

  appointed boards or elected boards, do you have a

  position with respect to that?

                 MS. LIEBER:  I've thought about it a lot

  and I'd like to talk to you about it.  I don't know what

  the right way to do this is.  The answer is I don't know.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Can I follow up?  Just

  add little context to Assemblyman Green's question.  In

  your experience as a member of the Board of Regents, of

  course you had interaction kind of a global scale with a

  lot of school districts, there were 700 in New York

  State.  The so called "dependent" school districts which

  comprises nearly half of the students around the state,

  dependent school districts, New York City, Yonkers,

  Buffalo, Syracuse and Rochester, largely have appointed

  Boards in some permutation, sometimes with some elections

  part of it, but it's mostly appointed.

                 My question in following up Mr. Green's

  inquiry, is did you discern any difference in the quality

  of representation or the appropriateness of

  representation with the dependent school districts that

  were largely appointed as opposed to the elected School

  Board which comprises almost all the other districts?

                 MS. LIEBER:  You know it has to much to do

  with the size of a community and what's involved.  And

  appointment, whether it's a Judge or a School Board

  person has to do with who's doing the appointing.  What

  is the process of appointment?  What does a person have

  to qualify for to be appointed, is part of what's the

  appointment process which is why there are Judicial

  Review Boards and what have you, and if you do it one way

  -- and so I just think it's a very interesting and

  important issue and I don't know, to answer your

  question, Steve.  I'm very sorry, I didn't answer

  immediately, no.  I didn't -- I can't say that one way is

  better.  Really you find a community where it's just

  amazing.  There's a tradition of the finest people

  running for the School Board and it becomes a very

  honorable post in that community and people look up to

  it.  And then there are places where it's not as

  honorable, and it's considered a goody that you get and

  makes you important.  And it's just I haven't found that

  it's as simple as that.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:  The Regents are

  elected by the Assembly.  And I think there's no question

  the Regents, like yourself, were and are considered an

  honored position and a valued position.  Does it make

  sense for instance, it might have made sense to give

  someone who has some political accountability or who is

  held politically accountable, say the City Council or you

  name it, or maybe a combination of City Council with

  Assembly people, State Senators who are responsible --

                 MS. LIEBER:  I don't have the answer,

  Roger.  You know --

                 MS. LIEBER:  -- we went through a period

  where there were Regents elected because they had lost

  the last election, that was their job.  And they didn't

  last long.  They were an embarrassment.  I went today,

  the quality of the Regents are infinitely higher.  Who

  knows, I think they're very much more intentional about

  being sure that every single member of the Board of

  Regents is someone who knows a little bit about the

  subject.

                 Nothing would honor me more than to sit

  with some of you and try to think through some of the

  complexities.  I think what you're doing is great.  But I

  see all the sides, the complexity of the issues you're

  addressing, and so I don't have a quick answer for you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well Mimi Lieber, we

  can't thank you enough for having been here today, even

  though on short notice and again we want to recognize and

  honor the public service you've provided on behalf of

  three million school children in New York State.

                 MS. LIEBER:  It's a pleasure to be here.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  Is Arlene

  Trehene here yet?  No, okay.  Our next witness is Connie

  Black who is Chair of the Education Committee for the

  NAACP.  As Miss Blake makes her way to the front, I make

  mention the fact that we have had the opportunity and

  really the honor to have heard already from three

  representatives of the NAACP from various chapters around

  the city and we so much appreciate the NAACP's strong

  interest in these proceedings and its history of

  effective and passionate representation on behalf of

  education and civil rights for more years than many of us

  have been alive.  We thank you for being here.

                 MS. BLAKE:  I too was not given much

  notice.  Good afternoon, everyone.  My name is Connie

  Blake.  I am a lifetime Bronxite.  I graduated from

  Walter High School, Lehman College and I earned my MS in

  education from Fordham University.  I served as a First

  Vice President of the North Bronx Section of the National

  Council of Negro Women which was founded by Mary McCloud

  Bethune.

                 She is known as one of the most

  influential women in the world.  She started a school for

  the children of railroad workers in Florida.  She had

  $1.50 and a garbage dump.  Today the school is Bethune

  Cookman College.  She is my favorite African-American,

  and I live very much based on her principles.

                 As a mother of a daughter who was educated

  in our public school system, I know how crucial it is for

  the community and parents to participate in the Community

  School District Governance Structure.  I am a retired New

  York City school teacher who substitutes daily.  So I am

  very much aware of the pulse of what is happening today.

                 I have served as Education Chair for the

  NAACP and the National Council of Negro Women.  The NAACP

  Branch is the Williams Bridge Branch and the NCNW stands

  for National Council of Negro Women.

                 Our children are in serious trouble due to

  the various factors.  Most of our schools are far below

  the New York City and New York State standards in reading

  and math.  And if I remember correctly, there are three

  hundred and something schools that are on the list.  And

  of those three hundred and something schools, New York

  City has maybe -- outside of New York City maybe there

  are eleven schools.  So it's like three hundred and

  whatever the number is.  And all of those schools with

  the exception of eleven are from New York City, which

  really concerns me.

                 The rate of our high school drop outs is

  just overwhelming.  The problems that we have, Evander

  Childs on the radio.  I have a nephew who attends Evander

  Childs and I'm really quite concerned about it, even

  though they have those three mini schools.  You still

  have all those children housed in those schools.  And

  every other day there's something happening.

                 Taft High School there are a lot of

  problems and I don't remember the third school.  But

  anyway, we have to look at these things.  We have to

  create a system where each parent is encouraged to take

  an active part in their children's education.

                 I remember one year I was a high school

  teacher and a middle school teacher.  And one year in

  particular that I remember, although what I remember was

  very much the norm, which is really very sad.  I had like

  a hundred and fifty students.  And open school night, I

  saw thirteen parents.  So the parents need to know, the

  parents have to be educated.  The parents have to be

  involved.  And as the person who just spoke previously to

  me, it's my speaking, she did make an excellent point.

  And I know that there are a small number of parents who

  are interested.  They do all the things that they have to

  do for their children and make sure that their children

  get.

                 I want to say at this point that I know

  the public school system can work if we educate our

  parents and it's not only the various community

  organizations like the National Council of Negro Women

  and the NAACP, but I also feel personally that churches

  need to get involved.  Maybe because I'm a minister's

  wife and my husband who is sitting in the back is a

  minister.  But I just feel that we, as a people, we have

  to take on the responsibility for our children.  And I

  feel so strongly about it I'm going to be starting a

  learning center on Saturdays from my church and then

  we're going to also be very seriously considering

  starting a Christian School as well.

                 Because we could attend all these hearings

  and just keep talking and talking and writing and

  writing, and talking, and in the meantime, the clock is

  ticking and we're losing these children.  They're in the

  streets whether you now it or not.  If you're on the

  train station or on a train in the middle of the day,

  you're going to see our children; or   you're going to

  see them outside of the school; or you're going to see

  them in the hallways.

                 So you know these hearings are great and

  wonderful, but as I said, the children are lost.  I can

  tell you they're lost because I'm in the school.  I'm not

  talking about when I was there, I'm still subbing every

  day.  Our children and when I say our children, they're

  all our children.  But the children who are lost are

  mainly the Latino children and the children of African

  descent.  And those children are expect to be

  contributing members of society just like anybody else.

  Because we can't afford to take care of them.

                 And they're in the prisons and more money

  is being spent on them being in prison.  And then you

  tell them that we can't even give them a scholarship to

  go to school.  But we can pay all that money for them to

  be in a prison.  Something is really wrong.

                 We are contributing members of our

  society.   But, here is a question.  Will our children

  become contributing members of society so that they will

  be able to run our country when they become adults.  It's

  going back to the question, you say a mother has 20

  children.  Well of course that's a little ridiculous.

  But a mother have five children and she takes care of

  those five children.  And then when she becomes elderly

  and unable to take care of herself, they say a mother can

  take care of five children, but can five children take

  care of a mother?

                 We're taking care of these children now

  with our tax dollars.  And when the time comes for them

  to take care of us, will they be able to take care of us?

  We better think about it.  You may think that you're far

  removed from it.  Some of us think that we're far

  removed, but we're not.  We are not far removed.  We had

  better figure out a way to do something and we had better

  figure it out quickly, because all these conferences and

  all these hearings and all these meetings and all these

  minutes and all these reports, what's the bottom line?

                 The bottom line is our children are lost.

  I don't know if any of you -- I'd like to ask you a

  question.  How many of your children have gone through

  the public school system?  I'd like to ask you.  You

  don't have to answer, rhetorical.  How many of your

  children are in private school?  You know, because I find

  it very interesting that it's like a pass time for some

  people or maybe they feel guilty as so they show oh, let

  me show a little interest in the peons.  You know, so

  I'll join this Board and I'll join that Board.

                 But if your children are in the system,

  then you know you have to do something.  My children went

  through the system.  My daughter went through the system

  and she holds a Master's from Harvard.  I did not send

  her ever to a private school or a Christian school.  I

  know it can work if people know the value.  I know the

  value of education because my mother taught me the value

  of education.  Because I'm an African-American woman and

  I know that there's no other way for us to get any kind

  of equity.  We're never going to get full equity,

  unfortunately because we live in a racist society.

                 But the closest thing we can get will be

  given to us through our education and that has to be

  taught.  But there are parents who have failed and they

  don't see education as the way out.  So it's very hard to

  tell a parent send your child to school when that parent

  can't even get a job.  Or if the parent does get a job,

  it's minimum wage.  So there are so many factors that we

  have to look at.  But we have to save these children.

                 We were writing letters to Santa Claus the

  other day.  And this child wrote to Santa Claus, please

  get my mother and father back together.  Children are

  sitting in classrooms with all kinds of problems that you

  and I never had.  Parents who need to be parented

  themselves.

                 So we have to do something.  I don't know

  the answers.  I'm not going to sit here telling you I

  know the answers.  I don't know the answers.  I know the

  problem.  I don't know the answers.

                 So, I thank you for your time.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well, we certainly

  thank you very much for your very articulate and

  passionate presentation about the needs and the problems

  of our children.  I just want to assure you, you weren't

  here earlier when we made some opening remarks and talked

  about the mission and purpose of these hearings, which is

  to try to ensure that there is adequate and even better

  than what we have had community representation as the

  local Community School Boards phase out of existence on

  June 30th.  I just want you to know that this Task Force

  doesn't consider itself just going through an exercise to

  fill time.  The men and women who have been appointed to

  this Task Force are absolutely serious and committed to

  the proposition that we -- of what you articulated, which

  is this may be the last best opportunity to ensure that

  whatever we can do to ensure that there is parental

  input, community input, especially at the local level

  that that happens.

                 So I know, because I know all the members

  of this Task Force very well, after we spent some time

  together, that the words that you offered to us were very

  well received and very well understood.

                 Do we have any questions?   Mr. Clayton.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  How are you doing?

                 MS. BLAKE:  Okay.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  I would like to thank you

  for your testimony and also the many years of you being

  in the NAACP of which I am a member and my sons are

  lifetime members.

                 MS. BLAKE:  I'm a Golden Life Member, my

  husband and I.  For those of you who don't know what that

  means, that means one thousand dollars each, a total of

  two thousand dollars.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Excellent.  And I also --

  you also proved once again that an involved parent

  produces academic performance for their children, because

  you have a daughter with a Master's Degree from Harvard,

  commendable.  You're to be commended for that.

                 You're also to be commended for your doing

  something also about the situation at hand by starting an

  after school program in your faith group there. That's

  commendable and we need a lot more of that from the

  communities.  Communities really being involved in a

  meaningful way and your group is showing the example

  right there.

                 I also like the fact you said you have

  your hands on the pulse of what's going on.  You're in

  the school every day and you see the need for parents to

  be given some professional development.  That if parents

  were given professional development, you could see a lot

  more being gained by that school community.

                 Can you elaborate on your school

  leadership team in the building?  Do they have

  significant training?   Are they functioning?  Can you

  give us some input again on how parental involvement can

  be strengthened on the local level?

                 MS. BLAKE:  Well I can just reinforce the

  fact that there is such a small group.  As a person who

  spoke previously and I feel ignorant about it, because

  you all know her.  But I certainly didn't know who she

  was.  But every school I've been involved in, there

  always seems to be a small group.  And I'd like to say at

  this point, that my mother was the PTA President when I

  was growing up.  So I come from a family that knows the

  importance of being involved.

                 She was the President at my public school

  and she was the President at Roosevelt, where my older

  sister attended.  And so we know.  But there seems to be

  a small group and we have to enlarge those groups.

  Always a small group and they always manage to get what

  they want most of the time from the principal.  And the

  principal plays a game with them so they don't really get

  too involved and it shouldn't continue.  But I see it and

  I have seen it.  And I guess I have to confess, I never

  really got involved with the PTA other than joining it,

  because my older daughter is hearing impaired and I spent

  a lot of time working with her so that she is the woman

  that she is today.  She has a family and she works and

  everything else.

                 So, but they all knew me.  They knew my

  husband.  They knew me.  We let them know who we were.

  When there was a need, we were there.  But I was never

  one of those who -- and I was too busy getting -- I was

  married young and I had started college and I met this

  good looking guy and I decided I would marry him.  I

  shouldn't even say that.  I should say he decided he

  would marry me.  Because I'll have to hear that when I go

  home.

                 But anyway, so then afterwards I went back

  to school.  So by going back to school, I had my own

  agenda.  So I didn't have time to play games.  So I had

  two children and so I knew what my goals were.  So I

  didn't get involved in all of that.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Ms. Brown?

                 MS. BROWN:  Being that we all know that in

  schools not all parents want to be involved in

  governance, so you won't always find a small segment of

  the population that's willing to be the leadership in the

  school building.

                 But again, how would you go about engaging

  the other members of the school community, meaning the

  parents who stand outside on the corner, who will never

  step into the building, no matter how much you try to

  condole them into the building.  What would be your first

  avenue of getting those people into the building or

  getting information out to them since they don't

  necessarily come in and engage in those types of

  activities?

                 MS. BLAKE:  Okay.  One of the things that

  I failed to do because I wasn't here to toot my own horn,

  but I was the founder of a committee called Committee for

  Excellence in Education Through Parent Involvement.  I

  started a group and as it said, Committee for Excellence

  in Education Through Parent Involvement.  So we went to

  various PTA's and we helped them to get their parents

  involved.

                 One of the things that we did is we said

  if you -- children bring -- they draw parents, the ones

  that can draw.  And if you have them performing, the

  parents will come out.  If they are young enough, they

  can't come out anyway without their parents.  So they

  would come out.

                 For instance, February if they did

  something for Black History Month or March if they did

  something for Women's History Month, et cetera, et

  cetera, et cetera.  So we worked with a number of schools

  in our district.  We're from District #11.  And you might

  say, well, those of you who know about District #11, you

  figure oh, well those, you know that's one of the best

  districts.  I think it's a top district.  But we still

  have the same problems.  You know, the parents didn't get

  involved.

                 So we did things like that nature.

  Sometimes we did the class that had the highest

  attendance would get a pizza party or an ice cream party.

  So we had to do that too, to get the parents involved.

  But those were the things that we did.  Or we had a

  raffle or whatever the case may be.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. DeLeon?

                 MR. DE LEON:  Miss Blake, thank you for

  your thoughtful remarks.  My question is from your

  experience are there any resources committed or available

  to the school to help the school deal with children from

  dysfunctional families for the family and if there isn't,

  is there a need for that?

                 MS. BLAKE:  There are counselors.  They

  have counselors on top of counselors and on top of

  counselors.  And they counsel them.  But when you're a

  little child and your heart is broken because your mother

  and father aren't together or you don't even know that

  you have a father.  I mean we hear things that are really

  heart wrenching.  So you have counseling.  But how are

  you going to help a seven year old child deal with the

  fact that his mother and father just broke up?  All the

  counseling in the world and the mother has her problems.

  The father may not even want to -- they may not even be

  connected anymore.

                 So, like I said, I can only tell you what

  the problems are.  I don't know the answers.  But I just

  know our children come to school with a lot of baggage, a

  lot of baggage.

                 MR. DE LEON:  And you feel that there's

  sufficient resources to help them with the baggage or you

  need more?

                 MS. BLAKE:  So you have a counselor, now

  what?  I mean you're seven years old.  What do you do?

  The counselor talks to you.  You talk to the counselor.

  You still have to go back home to that environment.  Or

  you're in a foster home.  Maybe you're in a foster home

  because they need extra money and it's not about loving

  you and caring about you.  You know, this is what you're

  dealing with.  In this twenty-first century, these are

  the problems that we're dealing with.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Thank you.

                 MS. BLAKE:  Knowing you, you may know some

  nice little homes where there's a mother and a father and

  everything is so honky dory.  But they're rare.  They are

  so rare.  My husband and I just celebrated our fortieth

  wedding anniversary.  We renewed our vows.  And a

  minister said to us, how do you -- how could you stand

  each other for forty years.  I mean what is that to say

  to somebody?  I mean that just shows you a sign of the

  times.  So, you know, children are in and out.  You know

  there are uncles -- children that live with uncles,

  different uncles coming in, a revolving door.  I mean

  what do you say?  I don't have an answer.

                 I just know that our children are in

  trouble and you may be able to help in some way.  You're

  not magicians or miracle workers, but you know, that's

  all I can say.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay.  Mr. Levin.

                 MR. LEVIN:  I'm not sure, I'll be able to

  articulate a question.  But let me start.  In my own

  experience I've seen a teacher and a social worker too of

  my members of my family here in the Bronx reach in at the

  sole of children and give them self esteem, where there's

  no parental involvement at all.  And you talked about the

  church.  You even mentioned the start of a Christian

  school.

                 Is there some way that we, trying to work

  through a government institution, can import values

  whether they're spiritual values, the values of an

  education into a system that will not take the place of a

  dysfunctional family, but somehow deal with education

  that's more than just the pedagogical problem?

                 MS. BLAKE:  To intelligently answer you,

  that would take a lot of thought, really.  So I'm not

  prepared at this time to answer that question.  It's an

  excellent question.

                 I also wanted to further elaborate.  You

  said faith based, but we are not going to be asking

  anybody for any money, because we don't want anyone to

  dictate to us what to do.  So we won't be asking for any

  money.  We're going to be -- it's going to be based on

  the principals of Mary McCloud Bethune.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Rivera.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Good afternoon, Miss

  Blake.  Both you and Mr. Tuitt said something which I

  wanted to pick up on.

                 MS. BLAKE:  Oh, I'm sorry.  You're good

  afternoon to me.  I thought you meant -- so I was --

  that's why I was -- okay.  Cultural differences.  When

  you say good afternoon to most people, that's it, we're

  finished.  All right.  I'll just skip rocks again.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  You said something

  that Mr. Tuitt said that I wanted to pick up on.  And I

  have no qualms with what you said.  You said that

  District #11 is the best district in the Bronx.  Because

  the reason I have no qualms with that is because I have a

  piece of District #11.  So I can agree with you and not

  worry about some of my other parts of my district

  disagreeing with you.

                 But what makes District #11 that unique,

  that it is the best.  I'm sure you've make that statement

  before and you've given it some thought.  Why is District

  #11 different from some of the other districts in the

  Bronx and what makes it unique and what is that little

  spark that it has that you have noticed?

                 MS. BLAKE:  Well I think District #11 has

  a lot of home owners and I think that that makes a

  difference.  They are experiencing a piece of the pie, a

  piece of the American dream.  They may be working two and

  three jobs, but the fact remains that they do have a

  home.  They may have to pay for it for the next thirty

  years, but the fact remains they do have that.  And I

  think a certain percentage of them may be immigrants.

  Many of them are from the various islands.  And I can

  probably say my father was some St. Thomas, Virgin

  Islands.  So, I think that has a lot to do with it.  And

  they want to -- they came for a reason.  And the reason

  was to share and so they want to pass that down to their

  children as well.  So I think that has a lot to do with

  it.

                 And then a lot of them also are

  Christians, a high percentage -- if they're not

  Christians, they believe in a superior being.  So I think

  that has a lot to do with it as well.  So they're

  actively involved, but not as actively as we would like

  them to be.  But they are actively involved.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well before I say good

  afternoon to you, first I want to thank you very much for

  being here.  You've added a great deal to our thinking

  and also to our feeling about what we need to do to

  improve public education.

                 So I want to thank you very much.  I want

  to thank who you refer to as the good looking minister in

  the back who escorted you here today.  I want to

  congratulate you on forty years and wish you an equal

  number of more years in the future.  And as I've said to

  some of your other colleagues, we so much appreciate the

  work, the ongoing work of the NAACP.  You've made an

  enormous difference as an organization and then I can see

  you as an individual.

                 We thank you for sharing your wisdom and

  your insight with us this afternoon.

                 MS. BLAKE:  You're quite welcome.  And I

  wish all of you the best.  And I hope that by

  registering, I will receive some written information so

  that I can critique it.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We will try to

  communicate back to many of the people who have testified

  before us today.  And we so much appreciate your time.

                 MS. BLAKE:  Okay.  Happy holidays to all

  of you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  Has -- no.

  Even before I asked the question, I was being given the

  answer.  Well we've reached a point in time.  Let me just

  say this.

                 We have three more individuals, all from

  Community School Board 7 who had pre-registered, plus one

  other individual who had indicated her interest in

  testifying during the afternoon session.  Given the fact

  that they're not here at this moment, let me just say we

  will take a ten minute recess.  I'll call it a pause.

  We'll take a ten minute pause and see if any of those

  individuals have arrived in ten minutes and if not, then

  we will say a few words to each other and resume at 6:00.

                 But let's take a ten minute pause based on

  the clock to our left.  So let's just make sure we're

  back here in ten minutes to four.

                      (Off the record)

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay, we are going to

  resume.  Let me just mention to the members of the Task

  Force that Mr. Levin suggested as we did in Queens, that

  before we break for dinner, and it looks like we'll have

  an extended break for dinner so you will all be able to

  relax a little bit.  But before we do that, after we

  complete the testimony in the few moments that we have a

  short meeting just to get ourselves coordinated for this

  evening and the next several weeks to come.

                 So please stay here and we'll do that

  meeting at the conclusion of the testimony.

                 So we have still three individuals, all

  from Community School Board 7 who were scheduled to

  testify.  They are not here yet.  However, Arlene, I

  believe it's Trehene from Community School District 4.

  Is that correct?

                 MS. TREHENE:  CS-4.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Oh, from CS-4, okay.

  From CS-4 and she is the Title I Chairperson.  So, we

  invite you and your brother to the -- I know that.  I

  heard Miss Trehene refer to -- I know that.  Hi Martin.

                 Okay, we welcome you, Miss Trehene and

  because you weren't here earlier I should just make

  mention that fact that we know that everybody has a lot

  to say because there's a lot to talk about in education.

  We are trying to limit testimony to no more than five

  minutes.  That will enable the members of the Task Force

  perhaps to engage in a couple of questions and answers.

  And we're delighted you're here.  Thank you.

                 MS. TREHENE:  Thank you and I presented

  the speech that I'm supposed to be talking about to the

  Chair, because I only made one copy out of my printer

  this morning.  And it states, good morning.  My name is

  Arlene Trehene.  I am a parent first of two children, one

  in college and my son is in Public School, CS-4, right

  here in the Bronx.  I'm here today to urge you on

  providing a parental involvement system that is effective

  and productive and that provides positive unity in

  educating our children.

                 Now I wrote this poem this morning.

  That's how quick I did this, and the poem is "What a

  Parent Needs in the New York City School System."

  Parents need a place to go in their neighborhood where

  they can discuss with another parent the issues occurring

  at their child's school without being scrutinized.

  Parents who talk about an issue at their child's school

  should not be told I will get back with you and months

  pass and nothing is resolved.  Parents should be given

  their New York City Department of Education Parents

  Rights Handbook and attend a workshop with a certified

  school counselor the first day they admit their child to

  school and not at a principal's meeting.  Parents need a

  place where they can be empowered enough to say it's not

  fair, it's not right.  This is educational neglect or

  this is child abuse.  Parents need a place that they can

  call or enter that is open in their neighborhood before

  school starts and after school closes when they get off

  from work.  Parents should not have to fill out an intake

  form unless their going to resolve their issues

  immediately.  Parents need a place where they can say

  something's wrong.  It happened at my child's school.

  Could you please give me a report on the yesterday's

  events at the school in 72 hours, not the next School

  Board Meeting.  Parents need a check and balance system

  when the School Administrator says, we have all new

  certified teachers, new text books and computers in all

  the classrooms, where parents could actually see with

  their own eyes and give a report that yes, at this school

  we do have these things.  Parents need a place where they

  can sit and be a decision making table with a budget and

  educational data to provide accurate decision making

  suggestions and not be told what the school has, what

  they're going to be spending the money on, and what

  programs they are going to receive at the school.

  Parents need a place when they can't afford to pay $1.50

  for a half fare bus pass and get a full fare bus pass

  without making their children walk to school or be absent

  from school.  Parents need resource rooms open with

  educational information in all the languages in their

  neighborhood.  Parents need a resource room where they

  can go on a computer and look up the types of programs

  and educational resources that they might not be provided

  in their neighborhoods.  Parents need a resource room and

  Parents Association rooms that can hold at least ten

  parents comfortably and not the main office of the school

  or a storage closet.  Parents need a place where they

  don't have a translator and the seven popular translator

  languages are the only thing that they have and still get

  the school information in English and Spanish and can't

  get a translation without cost or shame because they

  don't speak these languages or told "If you don't speak

  these languages, we don't have a program for your child."

  Parents with newly arriving children from another nation

  can automatically receive tutorial services so the child

  would not be picked on because they don't understand the

  language.  Parents need a place when they move from one

  address to another and their child is in a special needs

  program, doesn't have to wait two weeks for a routing

  change for a pick up to and from school.  Parents need a

  place they can ask questions where they can say I was

  informed my child is going to be left back for the second

  time.  Where do I go?  What steps do I take?  And make

  sure that their child will be placed in the right grade

  in September and get a real alternative answer.  Parents

  need a place that generates information and disseminates

  information weeks prior to the event, not the same day.

  Parents need a place where they can say the play area at

  the school is unsafe.  Could somebody check on it with a

  72 hour response.  Parents need a place they are not told

  your child is in a Chancellor's District so you have no

  say in our Community School District.  Parents need a

  place when they are harassed and abused in a school that

  they can have their child placed in another school by

  just making one phone call.

                 In closing, I'd like to thank all of the

  Task Force members and I hope you have a great evening

  and I hope this poem influences you enough to understand

  what parents really do need in the school system.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well Miss Trehene we

  are delighted that you were able to be with us today and

  you brought really the subject of all that we are doing

  with you today.  Martin, is it?  Yes, we are delighted

  that you are here, Martin.  That your mom had an

  opportunity to bring you with her.  And we very much

  appreciate your views that I think were very well put

  together in this presentation the problems that parents

  go through and their inability to get the kinds of

  answers in a timely manner that they need when they have

  to navigate a very complicated education system.

                 Do we have any questions?  Mr. Clayton,

  then Miss Brown.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  How are you doing?

                 MS. TREHENE:  Hi.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Thanks for coming today.

                 MS. TREHENE:  Thank you.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  And I just want to point out

  that by your testimony here today, that this is another

  example of parental involvement that didn't require you

  actually going up to the school.  In other words what I'm

  trying to say is when you go home, make sure you explain

  to your son what mommy was doing, testifying today, what

  this was all about, and that was a parental involvement

  on a level that we talk about to our parents throughout

  the city.  I thank you for being here and bringing him.

                 MS. TREHENE:  Thank you very much.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Brown?

                 MS. BROWN:  I know your issue all too

  well.  Miss Trehene's school is a District #85 school.

  Since we're talking about Community School Boards, the

  issue with your School District #85, were you able to go

  to your School Board with your issue and if not, how do

  you think the School Board in your district could have

  been improved to answer some of the questions that you

  have?

                 MS. TREHENE:  Okay.  First of all, I'd

  like to address this issue right now.  District #85

  everything is being handled at 110 Livingston Street.

  Parents are told when they go to the District that this

  school cannot be serviced here, in the Bronx.  You will

  have to go to 110 Livingston in Brooklyn.  And if you

  live in the Bronx and you do not have the $3.00

  transportation, you cannot get any help.  So you're

  basically stranded.

                 Now if there was some sort of system in

  place where we, as parents, could come and merge together

  and get these issues solved at the District Level, it

  would be a betterment for all parents because just the

  inconvenience alone to have to go to Brooklyn from the

  Bronx is one thing.  And then you're in a high poverty

  neighborhood is another.

                 MS. BROWN:  But right, District #85 for

  those who don't know, as the Chancellor's District and

  those are schools that have been placed under

  registration review.  Your local school district would

  be?

                 MS. TREHENE:  District #9.

                 MS. BROWN:  District #9 and I just need

  for clarification, District #9's School Board is not able

  to intervene in District #85 school issues.

                 MS. TREHENE:  Exactly and also does not

  include any parent in the Chancellor District to attend

  their events.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we are very

  grateful for the fact that I know how busy your day is

  and that you were able to take some time to join us and

  share your thoughts with us and bring that good looking

  guy with you.  What a face, who looks just like you.

                 MS. TREHENE:  Thank you.

                 MR. LEVIN:  And you should be encouraged

  to continue to write your poetry.

                 MS. TREHENE:  Yes, thanks.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you very much.

                 MS. TREHENE:  Okay, thank you very much.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay.  We do not have

  anyone else on our list to testify this afternoon.  We

  will re-convene these proceedings at 6:00 P.M.

                 In the meantime, however, members, Mr.

  Levin suggested and I think it was a good suggestion that

  before we make our way to our dinners and whatever, that

  perhaps we do what we did in Queens and just have a short

  impromptu meeting.  So, let me suggest that everyone from

  me to Ms. Mullen just come around on this side so we

  could be facing each other,

                 Everyone from Mr. Rivera to the right just

  --

                    (Evening session begins)

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We're going to begin in

  just a couple of minutes.  Okay.  Good evening everybody.

  We are very happy that you are here, so many of you,

  right at a little bit past 6:00.  We have a full evening

  of testimony and discussion ahead of us.

                 So I want to make some brief opening

  remarks at the outset, so that everybody will sort of

  have an understanding as to what we're doing.

                 First of all, let me just ask for a show

  of hands if I might.  Are there people in the room who

  feel that they need a translator right now?   Okay, Nancy

  is here so -- my name is Steven Sanders.  I am the Co-

  Chair of the Task Force on Community School Governance

  Reform.  The Co-Chair of this Task Force is Terri

  Thomson.  Terri Thomson had a little bit of shoulder

  surgery yesterday.  She is home, but we have a telephone

  hook-up, so she is listening to these proceedings and is

  terrific that even one day after her surgery she is up

  and about and hearing everything that is being said this

  evening.

                 Many of you know that earlier this year in

  June, the State Legislature enacted some very dramatic

  changes in the way that New York City School Governance

  System is managed.  A lot of those changes gave to the

  Mayor of the City of New York more authority and

  accountability.  Many of those changes gave to the

  Mayor's hand picked Chancellor more authority and

  accountability, as was so with the local District

  Superintendents.  As some of you also know, that

  legislation eliminates, abolishes local Community School

  Boards as of the end of this school year on June 30th of

  2003.

                 However, it was not the intention of the

  State Legislature to eliminate community representation

  or parental input; quite the opposite.  The purpose of

  the legislation and the language of the legislation said

  that we need to change and hopefully make better

  community representation and replace the local Community

  School Boards with some other kind of entity, some other

  kind of structure that, hopefully, would provide even

  greater community input and parental accessibility.

                 As a result of that, the legislation

  created this Task Force.  And it provided that the

  Speaker of the Assembly and the State Senate Majority

  Leader each appoint ten members to this Task Force and

  the Task Force's responsibilities is to hold at least one

  public hearing in every borough, which we are doing.

  Last week we held a hearing in Manhattan, last Tuesday.

  And then on Thursday we were in Queens.  Today we're in

  the great borough of the Bronx.  And on Monday, January

  the 6th, we'll be on Staten Island, and we will complete

  the public hearing phase on Thursday, the 16th of January

  in Brooklyn.

                 We've also tried, as best as we could to

  make sure that the hearings that we are holding are being

  held in places and at times where as many people who wish

  to will have an opportunity to share with us their views

  about what we need to do with the community school

  district level to make community involvement, parental

  input as good as possible and that's the reason why we

  are dividing these hearings in each borough into two

  sessions; one during the day time, and one in the

  evening.                 We are mindful of the fact that

  many parents and many members of the community for many

  reasons are unable to come out during the day time, and

  it's easier in the evening.  In fact there may be some

  students who will wish to testify and we know that

  they're in school during the day.  So we have made it our

  business to make sure that we hold a lot of these

  hearings in the evening and that's what we are doing this

  evening.

                 We are required after the hearings are

  over to come up with a proposal, to come up with a

  recommendation no later than February the 15th as to how

  we are going to replace the local community school

  boards.  That isn't a lot of time.  That will basically

  give this Task Force about 30 days after the hearings are

  over to come to an agreement on how we can enhance and

  make better community representation and parental input.

                 A lot of our views about how we should

  make community representation better will be developed

  and informed by what we hear at these public hearings.  I

  think I speak for all of the members of the Task Force

  when I say that in the first two days and then the first

  part of today, we've heard a lot of testimony from

  several scores of New Yorkers, 40 or 50 New Yorkers

  already who have given us the benefit of their views and

  I think it has helped us already begin to shape our own

  opinions about how we can make communities as involved in

  local education matters as we can.

                 So we're listening very carefully.  And

  that really is our primary role right now to listen to

  you.  We are going to ask you when you come up to testify

  this evening to try to confine your remarks to no more

  than five minutes.  Now I know that that's not a lot of

  time and I know that there's a lot that is on people's

  minds, and we understand that.  But in order to be able

  to hear from as many people as possible, and also perhaps

  to have some questions and answers from the Panel to the

  people who will be testifying, I will need to limit your

  testimony to about five minutes.

                 So when and if you have gone past the five

  minute point, I will try to give you a gentle and polite

  signal that it's time to wrap up and I hope you will not

  feel that is disrespectful.  But it is done in order to

  let as many people have their say tonight as we possibly

  can do.

                 One final note before I ask the members of

  the Task Force to introduce themselves and tell you a

  little bit about themselves.  There are some people who

  have testified at the previous hearings who have

  expressed a view that they would wish to see the current

  local community School Boards remain in tact.  And I

  understand that that is a sentiment that is felt by some,

  shared by some.  The State Legislature however, made that

  decision in June already.  That decision was debated and

  discussed and there was a decision made in June that the

  School Boards as they exist right now and have existed

  for the last 30 years are going to be replaced by

  something and it is our responsibility, the members of

  the Task Force to figure out what that something is that

  will replace the local Community School Boards.

                 So although I know there will be some

  people who will wish to say just keep everything the way

  it is, that's not really an option that we have at our

  disposal.  So the best use of your time and the best use

  of your testimony is to tell us how you feel that the

  current structure can be made better and what we ought to

  do to replace it.  Because let me just emphasize in

  closing again, that in abolishing the local Community

  School Boards it was the intention of the Legislature not

  to leave a void or a vacuum, but to replace it with

  something that will be better, more effective, give the

  community and parents even better representation and

  access to their local schools and their local Community

  School Districts even better than existed before.

                 So, let me turn to my far left.  I think

  Jane is on my far left, and the members of this Task

  Force will give a brief introduction of themselves and

  then we'll get to the really important business of the

  evening which is your testimony.

                 MS. ARCE-BELLO:  Good evening. I'm Jane

  Arce-Bello, a Community Activist from the Bronx.

                 MS. MC KENNA:  Good evening.  My name is

  Rose McKenna and I'm a former member of Community School

  #10.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Good evening.  My name is

  Jack Friedman.  I'm from North East Queens.  I spent ten

  years as a member of a Community School Board.  But my

  most important job is being a parent of two high school

  students in New York City Public Schools.

                 MR. LEVIN:  I'm Jerry Levin, a retired CEO

  of AOL-Time Warner.  My family and I are committed to the

  public school system in New York City, most particularly

  in the Bronx where they have been very active most

  pointedly at Taft High School.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  Good evening.  Ernest

  Clayton, President of the United Parents Association of

  New York City.  I have six sons in the public school

  system.  I, myself, am a product of the public school

  education and a CUNY graduate.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Good evening.  I'm

  Peter Rivera.  I'm a member of the State Assembly from

  the Bronx, the 76th Assembly District.  I Chair the

  Puerto Rican-Hispanic Task Force and the Committee on

  Cities.

                 MS. BROWN:  I'm Robin Brown, Chairperson

  Chancellor's Parent Advisory Council.  I have a child in

  the fourth grade and a son in a Pre-Kindergarten.

                 MS. REDDINGTON:  Bunny Reddington,

  currently serving as Vice Chair on Community Board #31,

  School Board #31 in Staten Island.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Good evening.  My name is

  Bob DeLeon.  First let me welcome all of you for coming

  out here.  I know it's rough when you work all day and

  you've got to do these kinds of things.  But it's a must.

  Again, my name is Bob DeLeon.  I'm the representative

  from Manhattan and I am a former parent activist in East

  Harlem.  Thank you.

                 MS. HILL:  Good evening.  My name is Renee

  Hill.  I am a product of the public school system, born

  and raised in the Bronx, and I'm a practicing criminal

  defense attorney for the past ten years.

                 MS. HAHN:  Yanghee Hahn from Flushing,

  Queens.  I have access to various Asian Immigrants

  Communities.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Very good.  And before

  we begin with our first witness, let me just once again

  remind people that we do have a translator and we will

  make that announcement a couple of times during the

  course of the evening.  She is in the back.  She has her

  hands raised.  So if you are in need of translation help,

  please see Nancy in the back.

                 And let me just advise the members of the

  Task Force.  As you have the schedule in front of your of

  witnesses, I would just advise you just for your own

  edification that we already have about ten or twelve add

  ons and we are going to try to accommodate as many

  people, hopefully everybody, the people who are pre-

  registered and the people who have been gracious enough

  to arrive tonight.  And we will try to hear from

  everybody.

                 Let me just make mention the fact that

  Katherine Wylde has just arrived.  And she is the

  President of New York City Partnership.

                 Once again, I'm going t ask, really plead

  for you to keep your remarks to about five minutes.  And

  if you sort of lost track of the time, I'll give you a

  very gentle reminder so we can keep the evening moving as

  well as we can.

                 Our first witness tonight is Alex

  Betancourt who is the Deputy Executive Director of Aspira

  of New York, Inc.

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  Good evening Chairman

  Sanders, Co-Chair Thomson, Assemblyman Rivera and Members

  of the Panel on Community School District Governance

  Reform.

                 My name is Alexander Betancourt and I am

  here this evening representing Aspira of New York, Inc.

  and the 8,000 New York City public school students and

  parents that we serve.

                 I would just like our parents to stand by

  way of introduction.  Thank you.

                 Aspira of New York, Inc. has a long

  standing history of work in the public education domain

  since 1961 , and today continues to provide an array of

  services to  youth, parents and public schools.  For the

  last 41 years we have carefully watched, waited,

  litigated and often prodded the system to answer the

  Latino Community's wake-up call and the conditions facing

  our schools, students and communities.

                 Today in the borough of the Bronx, there

  are 186 elementary and middle schools in Community School

  District 7-12.  Ninety-five are SURR or low performing,

  either within the Chancellor's District or under local

  district control.  Of the 31 high schools in the Bronx,

  there are currently seven SURR or low performing schools.

  As you know, the Bronx has just gotten into the movement

  of creating small theme based high schools as a partial

  response to the declining in academic performance.

                 Too many Latino parents have children that

  today are languishing in schools that offer them no hope

  or future.  Our dropout rates continue to skyrocket, the

  push out rates increase with a Machiavellian efficiency

  and we are left in communities that are essentially

  bereft of "any student" having the opportunity to

  experience educational success from Pre-K through high

  school.  To a large degree, the future of our

  hemorrhaging schools now rests in City Hall, and more

  symbolically in the Tweed Building.  We now have the

  opportunity to exercise public review and accountability

  with the Mayor or vote with our feet if we are left no

  choices in the public education arena.  We are now at a

  point where the line must be drawn in the sand.  We

  either muster the political will and the necessary

  resources to move our schools beyond lock down, or we

  engage in an exodus from the public school system to

  other educational venues.

                 Our work over the past 41 years and most

  recently with the last four has served to affirm several

  facts.  There is a crisis of public confidence among the

  citizens of the city that the public education system can

  be reformed and improved.  Latino parents understand that

  there is no choice among bad choices when it comes to the

  schooling of their children.  Latino parents are

  experiencing a serious drift and disconnect from a system

  that has never been friendly, pre or post school boards.

  Latino parents, while strong supporters of public

  education will always seek the best for their children

  despite limited means, access and information.

                 Given this context, we ask ourselves, are

  we moving toward a performance based system, and if so,

  what is meaningful parent and community participation int

  his debate about Community School District and

  governance.  Our view and definition of meaningful

  participation is one that includes us as parents in the

  governance structure with the type of support and

  preparation to be effective and accountable to all

  parents who send their children to New York City public

  schools.  Those model of meaningful participation is at

  the core of the 1996 New York State Legislation mandating

  that the Chancellor develop a plan ensuring that every

  public school have an effective School Leadership Team,

  School Leadership Teams that include parents as partners

  in the process of improving school based performance.

                 How is this new educational market place

  going to differ from the old?  Will our children learn to

  read, write and compete with the challenges of the new

  market place?  Where do we as parents fit into this new

  order?  History and research both show us that the

  "consumer" parent has to drive the engine of change.  As

  our children's first teacher, we must challenge the

  system as it has never been challenged before to

  seriously consider the following recommendations.

                 Now these recommendations relate to the

  issue of District Governance Reform.  We envision the

  potential for a system that is much more efficiently

  managed, yet flexible enough to allow for local district

  decision making and public input.  This new system should

  provide for meaningful public and parent expression of

  concern; facilitate communication between all stakeholder

  from the community, schools and Chancellor; engage and

  enable broad parent and public participation at key

  decision making levels in the system.

                 The new district governance structure

  should consist of all key constituencies with no less

  than 50 percent parent representation and be charged with

  two core responsibilities; improve public school

  performance within local districts, and monitor the

  effective utilization of resources to achieve the above.

                 We believe that performance has a deep

  relation to the money and we need to follow the money if

  we're ever going to address the issue of school

  improvement.

                 Within this newly formed district

  governance framework accountability would be embedded

  consistent with the intent of the 1996 legislation,

  leading to the creation of School Leadership Teams,

  budget and expenditure review in consultation with

  parents and the public in open meetings. Educational

  policy considerations affecting school performance and

  budget and are discussed and negotiated in a public

  forum.  The approval of the district level comprehensive

  educational plan for all of the schools and the ability

  of local constituents to assess the performance of a

  District Superintendent in consultation with parents, the

  public and the Chancellor.

                 The infrastructure needed to enact this

  model presented is to a large degree existent within

  local schools with functional leadership teams.

  Consistent with the '96 legislation, it is imperative

  that the Chancellor demonstrate full support of School

  Leadership Teams and that resources be dedicated to the

  development of capacity and the core competencies needed

  for functional and effective teams, including a dedicated

  effort to train parents.

                 Consideration should also be given to the

  consolidation of all local school teams that operate

  across functional areas and committees into the overall

  structure of the school based leadership team.  There is

  significant anecdotal evidence of team dysfunction amid

  competing interests not solely centered on school

  improvement, but tangential issues related to work place

  demands.  The Principal as the Chief Instructional

  Officer of the school must have the capacity to operate

  in a streamlined consultative management structure that

  facilitates the educational mission of the school.

                 We would also recommend that great care be

  taken by the Task Force in recommending new

  organizational and structural alignments to the New York

  City Department of Ed that are rooted in competition and

  competing organizational interests that would only

  further erode the focus on improved performance.  Or as

  Yogi Berra once said, "it would be Deja vu all over

  again."

                 In closing, we recognize and respect the

  charge of this Task Force.  At the end of the day,

  parents of the 1.2 million school children of New York

  will be affected by your recommendations and the

  political process that will follow to reach consensus.

  From our perspective, there can be no new legitimate

  governed structure without parents at the local school

  and district level.  If we are to effectively move the

  system toward greater local school autonomy, parents

  should be engaged at each critical point in the process

  if we are truly committed to "Children First" so that in

  fact "No Child is Left Behind."

                 Thank you you for your interest and

  support.  Please note we've added additional details to

  this document regarding Team Composition.  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  And we thank you you

  very much, Mr. Betancourt.  Let me see if we have any

  questions.  Ms. Brown?

                 MS. BROWN:  I just have one question.  In

  the work that you've been doing with School Leadership

  Teams, what two key pieces need to be done to move the

  community and to move parents to effectively advocate for

  schools in the district and for the local schools?

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  I think the two key

  variables that we see are the variance in team

  performances affected by School Leadership.  So we have

  to have assessments that are in place on the capacity of

  school leaders to work with teams.  And then we have to

  look at teams and their overall assessment and capacity.

  I think there are some issues of core competencies, that

  quite frankly parents feel totally dealt out of the loop

  with.

                 If we can address the building of those

  competencies, then we can develop a unified system.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Arce-Bello?

                 MS. ARCE-BELLO:  Hi, Alex.  First I want

  to say as in Aspira -- and a product of the Aspira

  process how greatly encouraged I continue to be by

  Aspira's leadership in all of these areas.

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  Thank you.

                 MS. ARCE-BELLO:  And I commend the parents

  for coming out this evening.  Alex in addition to the

  parents, who else do you think should be part of this

  governing body?

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  I think you need to have

  every single stakeholder at that table from the UFT and

  CSA to the parents and note that I'm saying 50 percent

  parent.  It could be 51.  I think that we have to be

  really keenly focused on who the customer is in this

  process.  And the customer is the parent.  And if we're

  going to restore public confidence back in the system,

  we've got to make parents really feel like it's going to

  change and it's going to be different.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Clayton?

                 MR. CLAYTON:  How are you doing, Alex?

  First I'd like to thank you for your testimony and I'd

  like to also commend the work that Aspira has been doing

  for over the last 32 I think years.  Some great work in

  the Latino Community.

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  Thank you.

                 MR. CLAYTON:  I like what you say that the

  Chancellor needs to demonstrate full support for these

  Leadership Teams, and we've heard a lot about that.  That

  Central needs to give these teams and parents, in

  particular, more respect.  Because they fell like they're

  being disrespected.  And I also like what you say in here

  about a consolidation should be given to have all these

  local leadership teams come together where they can share

  experiences and functional information.

                 Sam Anderson from the Medgar Evers School

  of Social Law and Order Justice was here the other day in

  Manhattan, and he gave a model that was pretty

  interesting, and I see you have an aspect of it when you

  talk about there should be a consolidation somehow of

  these local teams where they can share ideas.  And his

  thought was to have mini conventions that in New York

  that will take place, maybe over the period of three

  days, that we have these mini conventions.

                 I just wanted to get your feedback on

  that, on mini conventions.

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  I think that information

  sharing across all of the constituencies is of paramount

  importance or ernest.  But my comments regarding the

  consolidation of teams really relates more to what a

  local principal does, you know, during a day in his life.

  When he may meet with four to five different teams, each

  with different personalities to some degree, all driven

  by different agendas.  I am talking about making the

  Leadership Team the central decision making body in any

  single school so that curriculum issues, budget issues,

  all of the other issues that principals have to deal with

  really would get dealt with through one team, so that

  there isn't the need for a principal to have to go crazy

  meeting seven and ten different teams in order to move a

  management agenda forward.

                 That's basically it.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Rivera.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Again, Alex I want to

  thank you on behalf of all of us here --

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  Thank you.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  -- for the work that

  not only you do, but that Aspira has done.  And again as

  Member Clayton indicated, going back 30, 35 years, back

  to the Aspira consent to create a whole bunch of other

  cases, as you know the Hispanic parent provides a

  different dynamic of the whole issue of parental

  involvement, parental concern.  And I know that Aspira

  has looked at this issue through the years.

                 How do we as a Task Force -- how can we

  better get parental participation, parental involvement

  in the whole dynamics of language and the school

  structure?  How do we do that?

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  I can give you the short

  answer, Assemblyman Rivera, which goes back to a

  conversation that I had with Joe Fernandez now almost 12

  years ago.  And Joe Fernandez basically told me that when

  we were trying to bring community based organizations

  into schools is that once you get the doors open, it's

  going to be extremely difficult to close them again.

  Many of our parents today still feel that the doors to

  the school system are largely closed.

                 Whether they are feelings that relate to

  the symbolism of how schools operate, the cultures that

  they operate that are sometimes often times aloof and

  detached from the parents experience on a daily basis,

  the new dynamic of Latino parent who is an immigrant to

  this city, who fears deportation the minute he or she

  makes a comment or a remark that may offend the

  principal.

                 The many times that we've heard that

  principals and/or members of school staff threaten to

  call Special Services for Children or INS if the parent

  makes a legitimate complaint, you know about the way the

  son or daughter is being treated.

                 The trust and the compact between

  community and school has to be restored.  That compact

  was never strong with Latino parents to begin with.  In

  my estimation the best way to manage that is to ensure

  that our school systems continue to partner with

  community based organizations who serve as a real easy

  conduit to communities in a very trusting and non-

  threatening manner.

                 It's my sense that every single school in

  this city should have a community based organization

  partner.  That won't get me a lot of fans at Tweed, but

  I'm going to tell you the truth about that.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well Mr. Betancourt, I

  know I speak for all the members of the Task Force.  We

  very much appreciate your being with us here tonight.

  And we also so very much appreciate the work that you

  have done for Aspira for so many years.  You've been a

  leader in public education.  Your work is well recognized

  and we very much appreciate your sharing your views with

  us tonight.

                 MR. BETANCOURT:  Thank you all.  And I

  want to thank the parents who came out to support us

  today more than anything else.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  Our next

  witness is one of the Bronx's favorite sons, Assemblyman

  Jeff Dinowitz.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Good evening

  everybody.  I'm State Assemblyman Jeffrey Dinowitz.  I

  represent the North West Bronx, the 81st Assembly

  District.  I apologize for not having any prepared

  statement.  I jotted down a few notes today while I was

  intently listening at my mandatory continuing legal

  education class.  So I'm just going to refer to them.

                 Welcome to my Chairman, Steve Sanders, my

  colleague, Peter Rivera, some fellow Bronxites and those

  of you who are not so fortunate as to live in the Bronx.

                 I just wanted to make a few very brief

  comments.  When I was elected to the Assembly, which was

  almost nine years ago, I felt very deeply committed to

  abolishing Community School Boards because we saw over so

  many years how they functioned or didn't function,

  corruption, et cetera.  And in the alternative, I felt we

  at least had to remove the power from the Community

  School Boards to appoint people to jobs which was the

  source of much of the corruption.  And in fact, that is

  exactly what the State Legislature did in December, 1996

  when we passed the reform bill in Albany.  And I believe

  that had a very dramatic effect on how School Boards

  functioned in New York City.  And at least it took care

  of one of the problems that School Boards had, which was

  the issue of patronage and corruption.

                 I don't think we've read a whole lot since

  that time about those issues.  Now the question now is

  does a Board, do each of the Boards serve the educational

  needs of our children.  And if we want to keep the

  Boards, in what form do we want to keep them or do we not

  want to have local Boards.

                 I believe that if we do have some sort of

  Community School Board it has to be an elected board.  I

  think anything other than that would be a step backwards.

  I think having an appointed board for example by any

  elected official does not contribute to improving

  education for our children.  And whether that's me

  appointing them or some other person appointing them it

  doesn't matter.

                 Do we want to have a more narrowly based

  elected School Board and I think the answer to that is

  no.  Mr. Betancourt before me made a number of excellent

  comments.  And he talked about the various stakeholder.

  Well there is one stakeholder that I don't think I heard

  him talk about, and that's the rest of the community.

  The schools consist not just of the teachers and the

  parents and the principals and the students and the

  unions, et cetera.  It consists of the entire community.

                 If we were talking about health care and

  hospitals, we wouldn't say well that's just about doctors

  and nurses and unions and patients, it's about the entire

  community.  And unless the entire community feels that it

  has a stake in the success of the schools, I don't

  believe the schools will succeed.

                 Some have suggested that we should abolish

  the School Board elections simply because of poor turn

  outs.  And over and over again we've heard people saying

  well there's only a two percent or a three percent turn

  out in the School Board elections, so we should abolish

  the elections.

                 Now a two or a three percent turn out is

  pretty bad.  But I can tell you that there have been

  other elections in recent years, special elections for

  the Assembly or for the City Council where they had

  single digit turn outs.  I don't think I've heard anybody

  say let's abolish elections for legislative office.

                 Poor turn out is not a reason to remove

  from people the ability to participate in democracy.

  What we need to do is to find a way to increase turn out.

  My district in the last election and I think many of you

  are aware of this had an amazing turn out, particularly

  my part of the district where I would say we probably had

  a 20 or 25 percent turn out.  In fact our turn out was so

  high in the 1999 School Board elections, that it was

  higher than the turn out in the previous year's primary

  for United States Senate when you had three heavy weight

  candidates, Chuck Schumer, Gerry Ferraro, and Mark Green

  running.  And yet our communities, Riverdale,

  Kingsbridge, and Van Cortland Village turned out in

  greater numbers.

                 So why is that?  And the reason we had a

  greater turn out is because people had an incentive to

  vote.  We had something that the community wanted.  The

  community wanted to build a high school, a neighborhood

  high school and people turned out in droves to make that

  happen.  The people in the community wanted to oust a

  School Board which many perceived as racist and people

  turned out in droves.  We turned out, and I don't believe

  that our community, the community that I represent ought

  to be penalized because we haven't been as successful in

  encouraging other areas to turn out.

                 The answer to poor turn outs once again,

  is to do everything possible to encourage people to vote.

  This is a democracy after all.  What would replace

  elected School Boards?  Many people have said well let's

  have a lot of parents.  Let's have 50 percent parents.

  Let's have all parents.  You know there are a lot of good

  people out there, parents and non-parents who should be

  working for our children.  In fact the person who just

  left as the Bronx representative on the Board of

  Education, Dr. Sandra Lerner, is no longer a public

  school parent.  Does that mean somebody of her calibre

  would not be eligible to serve us and serve the

  educational needs of our children?  I don't think so.

                 I'm a product of the public schools, as

  our my parents and my children.  And I hope that my

  children's children will be here in the Bronx and also be

  a product of the public schools.  And we are very

  committed to the public schools.  And that means that

  everybody who believes in public education, whether or

  not they have children in the school system at a

  particular moment, we should make use of their talents.

                 District 10 which comprises most of my

  Assembly District and much of District 10 and I have much

  of District 10 in my district.  Most of my district is 10

  and much of 10 is mine.  Probably a majority of the

  schools there do not have functioning parent

  associations.  Or if some of the schools have parent

  associations which are two or three people.  Those are

  not representative bodies of the parents.

                 You want to get everybody involved.  And

  simply saying well we have a parent association doesn't

  mean you have a parent association which is

  representative.  I think it's our obligation and we're

  trying to do this obviously through School Leadership

  Teams, to get as many parents involved as possible.  But

  possibly limiting involvement on whatever Board may or

  may not run our School District is not a way to encourage

  more people to get involved.

                 Any Board that's not chosen by the entire

  community, would be unrepresentative, narrowly based, and

  I believe ineffective.  My local board was elected by

  thousands and thousands of people, not dozens, not

  hundreds.  Either you should eliminate the Boards

  entirely, or make sure that you have Boards that are

  elected by lots of people, people who feel they have a

  stake in the system, people who participate in the

  system, the entire community.  And I would suggest that

  you fix the election process.  Maybe that means moving

  the elections to November.  Maybe it means voting

  machines.  We've heard all that before.

                 But if you eliminate the election process

  and create a much more narrowly based system, whereby you

  have only a few people running the schools or advising

  the schools, it's going to be counter productive.

                 My Board works. Don't eliminate it.  Don't

  replace elected Boards with a narrowly based clique, not

  democratically chosen by the community that it would

  represent.

                 Thank you very much.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you very much,

  Jeff.  It has always been a pleasure.  I know I speak for

  Peter Rivera and it has been a pleasure to serve with you

  to learn from your wisdom and your insight and

  experience.  I've always thought that the Bronx is

  exceedingly lucky to have representatives like you and

  Peter Rivera.

                 Are there any questions for Assemblyman

  Dinowitz?   Ms. Brown.

                 MS. BROWN:  I have a question in reference

  to the School Board turn out.  Being that you don't have

  the issue of getting a high school built again and I'm

  guessing that the Board that folks didn't like have been

  voted out.  Do you still think you would have the double

  digit turn out if you were to say have a school board

  election next year?

                 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  One thing I've

  learned is never to make predictions like that.  But I

  will say that once you've gotten people involved in

  something, whether it's the average voter in a School

  Board election or the average parent in the school

  itself, once you get them involved, I think you've hooked

  them.  And I believe that our community has been

  activated and I think they would turn out.  Now would

  they turn out in as great numbers than if there wasn't as

  controversial an issue?  Maybe not.

                 But I think we've got them involved.

  People care and I think one thing people learned in that

  election was that the entire community has a stake in the

  schools and unless we get the entire community to really

  care about the schools, it's going to be very hard to fix

  our schools.

                 MS. BROWN:  I just have one more.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Yes.

                 MS. BROWN:  In School Boards right now

  they are responsible for setting educational policy.  How

  has your School Board in your district engaged the

  community in terms of setting educational policy as

  related to student achievement?

                 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  I think the School

  Board has had -- well they had their normal meetings.

  They've had hearings and I can tell you that I've been in

  a number of those meetings and the turn outs at those

  meetings I dare say has been significantly higher than

  they've been in other places.  Don't penalize the

  district that turns people out.  Let's try to get

  everybody involved.  That's really important, getting

  people involved.  Our School Board since the last

  election, they've not only worked on the issue of

  creating the neighborhood based middle school, high

  schools, they've been involved in other areas, such as

  trying to create gifted and talented programs where none

  existed.

                 And other things such as bringing back the

  spelling bee, having a district wide science fair, those

  are things that weren't happening.  This has been an act

  of the School Board that's done things like that in order

  to try to engage people throughout the district.  And I

  was at that science fair, I guess it was last year.  And

  it was so incredible.  Kids from throughout the school

  district, north, south, east and west who were doing

  things that they hadn't been doing in the past, because

  you had a School Board that's been pushing and pushing.

  And I think it's been a success and I think --

                 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  And I think that

  when something is a success, you strut it and you don't

  fix it.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Rivera.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Good evening, Jeff.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Good evening.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  One of the biggest

  issues that I can recall in District 10 was the size of

  the district, the fact that it is if not the largest, one

  of the largest districts in the City of New York.  And a

  few years ago there was a discussion.  In fact some

  thought of legislation of trying to change the district

  line so that it became a smaller district.  And as you

  will recall, Jeff, it became a very hot, political issue.

                 One of the discussions that this Panel is

  having is just that.  What do we do with district lines

  and how do we alter them and how do we create a certain

  balance in size of districts to say the least?  What are

  your thoughts on that?  Is that something that -- what

  are your thoughts on that?

                 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Several years ago

  when there were hearings in the Bronx on proposed changes

  in the district lines, I went to both of those hearings.

  And in fact I spoke at the time against both of the

  proposals that affected my district, because I really

  thought the lines were done in such a way as to create

  deviceness and to me it didn't make sense.

                 Having said that, however, District 10 is

  indeed the largest district in the city in terms of

  population.  In fact I think it's probably the case that

  it's the largest district in the entire state, possibly

  with the exception of the city of Buffalo, but I'm not

  even sure that Buffalo has more kids than District 10.

                 I think administratively it's probably

  harder to govern a district that has 45,000 kids and over

  50 schools than it is go govern a district that has say

  10,000 kids and many fewer schools.  If we continue to

  have districts, and I think that's certainly a

  possibility, I would think it would make sense to have

  smaller districts.  I'm not suggesting have a hundred

  districts, because then you're going to have a hundred

  bureaucracies instead of 32.  But I do think that the

  disparity in size between the largest district and the

  smallest district is quite huge.  It's probably a factor

  of four at this point.

                 And even within the Bronx, there is some

  districts which are much smaller and some districts by

  the way which have many under populated schools.  I do

  think we have to be a little creative in terms of

  alleviating overcrowding in the most overcrowded schools

  and not letting a district line prevent overcrowding in

  District 10 from being alleviated by moving some kids if

  they're willing into nearby schools and nearby districts.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well Assemblyman

  Dinowitz, Jeff, we so much appreciate your being with us

  tonight and representing your constituents in the Bronx

  so very, very well.  We know that you have a busy

  schedule and we're very grateful that you spent some time

  and shared your very important views with us tonight.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Thank you, Mr.

  Chairman.  I appreciate the opportunity.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you very much,

  Jeff.  Let me just say to the audience, A) we are so very

  grateful that so many of you are here tonight.  And that

  means that when there are few conversations, it gets very

  loud.  And I know it's disconcerting to some of the

  witnesses who are talking and we're also delighted that

  there are so many youngsters with us tonight as well.  So

  I'm just going to ask you to make an extra special effort

  to keep conversations very, very low or if you need to

  have conversations, you can go to the back of the room

  and then return.

                 Our next witness is Jean DePesa, Parent

  Advocate.  Once again, I'm going to remind people to try

  to keep your remarks to no more than five minutes.  I

  will let you know when you have gone over.

                 MS. DE PESA:  Good evening, Members of the

  Task Force.  My name is Jean Depesa and I'm a lifelong

  resident of the Bronx.  I had the honor of being elected

  to two consecutive terms on Community School Board 8 in

  the 1970's.  Following that period, I also served for

  four years as the President of United Parents

  Association, representing at that time 400,000 public

  school parents.  I currently serve as the Parent

  Coordinator in School District 8 and have the distinct

  pleasure of working with the parents of children in our

  schools on a daily basis.

                 As a young parent in the 70's,

  Decentralization was my battle cry to educational reform.

  We truly believed we could make the schools work in our

  communities.  Out of our efforts came participation in

  the selection of superintendents and principals, (many of

  whom have served with great distinction), local hearings

  on tax levy and federal budgets, testimony on capital

  budgets and school construction, position papers on

  contractual issues for staff employed in the school

  system, and most importantly the development of

  curriculum to meet state requirements.

                 Sad to say, the media and the foes of

  Decentralization focused on the negatives of Community

  School Boards and neglected to highlight their positive

  contributions to the educational agenda in New York City.

  Most of the Boards served with distinction, but they were

  painted with the same brush as those that failed.  Each

  change of Chancellor took us further away from our

  original goals.  Which programs to cut under the cycle of

  budget constraints became the ongoing discussion in our

  communities.

                 Which brings us to the present.  The

  Chancellor is holding forums on his reform initiative

  "Children First."  Actually last night in my district,

  District 8, he was at I.S. 174.  He hopes to hear from

  five thousand parents, staff and community members to

  help him formulate his plan.  Thousands more than 5,000

  have taken the time to vote in School Board elections

  throughout New York City.  But we give short shrift to

  their voices.

                 He has formed working groups to draft his

  blue print.  Nowhere have I red that he will be holding

  public hearings on the final plan.  Who will say yay or

  nay?  Snippets that leak out to the refer to the L.A.

  cluster model, which is already failing in California,

  rotating superintendents, merging districts, and borough

  councils.  Some consideration is being given to

  empowering School Leadership Teams as "local boards."

  While this may appear to be going the distance for grass

  roots, using the teams, once again we must use caution.

  Without clearly delineating the role of team members and

  the power that is bestowed upon them, we could be walking

  into a mine field.  The School Leadership teams are still

  finding their way under the current governance

  legislation and many have complained of their lack of

  real empowerment.  Who is responsible for organizational

  design?  Where does this Task Force fit into the

  Chancellor's plan?

                 New York City is made up of a patchwork of

  communities, interrelated by city services and political

  lines, but most of all a unique sense of family

  flourishes within these neighborhoods.  School districts

  have nurtured educational philosophies over the past

  thirty odd years within these lines.  To ignore the

  culture of community in the name of reform is condemning

  us to centralization, which failed us before.

                 Your task is monumental.  How do you

  eliminate Community School Boards without losing a sense

  of community.  How do you redistrict communities without

  a loss of their identity.

                 Bottom line, we need to preserve the right

  to vote for our public school governance representatives,

  just like everyone else in New York State.  We need to

  restore meaningful powers to these elected

  representatives.  Responsibility for budget review, for

  educational policy and planning and for holding staff

  accountable for results should be returned to our local

  representatives.  Who better to express and respond to

  the needs of a community than the local representatives?

  All too often when a central body of officials listen to

  the recommendations from the field, it is easy for them

  to assume a "know it all" attitude,or not listen at all.

  How often did a vote at the Central Board change once a

  resolution was brought forth?

                 In closing, may I say that whatever plan

  you may ultimately recommend, it should not be one that

  responds to economic considerations.  Fewer districts

  with more schools and students may cut down on

  administrative costs but at what cost to our sense of

  community?

                 Finally, parents citywide, represented by

  the Chancellor's Parent Advisory Council, CPAC, have

  formulated recommendations to this Task Force.  I urge

  you to give serious weight to their position.  These

  parent leaders, who have entrusted their children to this

  school system continue to participate and volunteer in

  the footsteps of those of us who began the journey many

  years ago.

                 Thank you for listening to someone who is

  still fighting the fight.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you very much,

  Jean DePesa.  Let me see if we have -- Ms. Brown.

                 MS. DE PESA:  Oh, Robin.

                 MS. BROWN:  Thank you for your testimony.

  But I just want to make one simple note on the

  Chancellor's Parent Advisory Council.  This is actually a

  draft from a month ago.

                 MS. DE PESA:  Okay, but I still like it.

                 MS. BROWN:  It's actually changed since

  then.

                 MS. DE PESA:  All right, but it had what I

  liked in it.  So it's okay.

                 MS. BROWN:  I just wanted to clarify that.

                 MS. DE PESA:  We really want to support

  voting.  I think that they -- I know you've mentioned to

  Jeff about not a lot of people coming out.  And one of

  the points that I think needs to be made about the School

  Board elections in New York City, we do not vote for

  money off of bond issues when the School Board elections

  are held.  All around the state people are affected by

  school budgets when they vote for School Board elections.

                 We don't have that pleasure.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Again, I want to thank

  you very much for being here.  And just make mention the

  fact that two of your successors, Jean, as Presidents of

  UPA, Ernest Clayton is a member of this Panel, he had to

  leave.  And in the back is I.O. Harrington.  So I think

  you have spawned some excellent successors to the

  Presidency of the United Parent Association.  We thank

  you for being here.

                 Our next witness is Josette Santana, Ms.

  Santana, good evening.

                 MS. SANTANA:  Good evening.  I'm here

  speaking as a parent and not only as a parent, but as a

  PTA President to District 10.  I have been very involved

  in the school system since my children started Pre-K.

                 As Assemblyman Dinowitz said, District 10

  is one of the largest districts in New York City.  Now to

  abolish the Community District that we have, I'm sorry,

  but I find it kind of appalling.  Two things, it's like

  we, as parents, we all have as human beings and Americans

  we have a Constitutional right.  We have a right to

  choose what we want in place for our children, who makes

  the decisions for our children.  And that's basically who

  is in our community.  And that's the parents and that's

  who's running our districts, the people that we can look

  up to.

                 Without our District Office being where

  it's at, we have no one to turn to.  We can't say the

  Mayor himself is going to go to our community and take

  the time to see what it is that our community needs or

  maybe the Chancellor himself.  I mean one person cannot

  take care of so many schools and so many districts here

  in the city alone.  Maybe in Manhattan, close to where

  they're at, yes.  But in the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens,

  Staten Island, I don't see them making a promise to us

  that they're going to take their time to see what it is

  that we need.

                 And we need our district now to say that

  they don't need some type of fixing.  Yeah, they do.

  Nothing is perfect.  But as a community, us parents

  getting together with our district leaders and working as

  a whole, as a team and as a unit, I think we could better

  the school systems.  But to abolish them, I don't think

  that's right.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay, we thank you for

  that insight based on your experience.  Let me see if we

  have -- Mr. DeLeon.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Thank you for coming.

                 MS. SANTANA:  I thank you.

                 MR. DE LEON:  What would you put in its

  place?  Because if you heard Steve earlier, the Chairman

  earlier say that the State Legislature has already

  abolished the School Boards as we know it.  So in light

  of your comments, what would you put in its place?

                 MS. SANTANA:  To put in its place, like I

  said, I don't feel -- I feel that the district should

  stay in its place.  I mean we have -- to abolish it, we

  could also overturn the abolishment.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Okay, all right, send out

  the Carrion call --

                 MS. SANTANA:  Yes.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Ms. Brown?

                 MS. BROWN:  I just have one question.  If

  you looked at your existing School Board, what one thing

  would strengthen the School Board?

                 MS. SANTANA:  The fact that as Dinowitz

  said, District 10 is one of the largest districts.  But

  it's also one of the largest turn outs, when it comes to

  parent involvement.  We don't have a hundred percent

  involvement and I don't think we'll ever in our lives

  anywhere will have a hundred percent involvement.  But we

  had the largest involvement.  We have the parents

  involved.  We educate our parents with the information we

  have, and that's as our job as PTA President, or District

  Office personnel, that's our job and that's what we've

  done.  And the only thing that as a parent that I can do,

  that I've done already, is become more personal with my

  parents, get to know who they are and explain to them

  that what's out there and what their rights are.

                 MS. BROWN:  So the information that you

  share from your parents is it done through your own

  research?  Do you get the information from your School

  Board?  Is it coming from the Superintendent?

                 MS. SANTANA:  It comes from everywhere.

  I'm a person that I love knowledge.  And I do my

  homework.  I listen to what they tell me and I use that

  and I go and I do my own research.  And I go and I give

  this information to my parents.  That's my job as a PTA

  President, and as a parent who is concerned.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Levin.

                 MR. LEVIN:  Could you help us with your

  passion and conviction about parental involvement,

  obviously it's successful.  How could we make that happen

  throughout the system in whatever we're going to

  construct?  What can we learn from you?

                 MS. SANTANA:  As I said, not just take it

  as getting votes, but to become more personal, to get to

  know our parents to get to know what their lifestyle is,

  what it is they need, be more supportive.  Without having

  proper support from someone they can trust, you're not

  going to have the outcome you're looking for.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Yes, Miss Hill.

                 MS. HILL:  How do you disseminate the

  information to the parents?

                 MS. SANTANA:  I have -- we get meetings

  together.  The District itself holds Community Board

  meetings monthly.  I have my monthly meetings with my

  parents in the schools, twice in that month.  I have a

  morning session for the parents that don't work and I

  make sure I have an evening session for my parents that

  do work.  One way or another, they do have their

  information.  If I have information in writing and I have

  to make copies, I send it home.  One way or another they

  do receive their information.

                 MS. HILL:  Do you sent it home with the

  students?

                 MS. SANTANA:  Send it home with the

  students and the younger children, it's better to -- I

  feel sending it by mail.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well Miss Santana I

  must say that -- I'm sure I speak for the entire Task

  Force in observing that the parents and the students who

  you represent are exceedingly lucky to have you.  And if

  every school had someone as articulate, passionate, and

  intelligent as you obviously are, that would be a pretty

  good start to fixing the school system all by itself.

                 We appreciate your being with us and

  sharing your views and making your case.

                 MS. SANTANA:  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  We have on

  the schedule three individuals from Mothers on the Move.

  I'm told that two are here now and I'm going to ask those

  two to both come forward, Lucretia Jones and Carmen

  Maldanado-Santos.  And whichever order you would like to

  go, please feel free.  Just identify yourselves when you

  speak for the stenographer.

                 MS. JONES:  Okay, thank you.  My name is

  Lucretia Jones and I'm going to start with a little

  background on Mothers on the Move, just to let you know

  why and how we come to the point of the recommendations

  we're making.

                 Okay, so I'm a parent, was a parent in

  District 8.  I have two children.  My daughters --

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  And you're Lucretia

  Jones?

                 MS. JONES:  I'm Lucretia Jones.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Right.

                 MS. JONES:  Yes, I am.  I have a daughter

  who is a freshman now at Brooklyn Tech and my son is

  about to graduate from Hunter in June.  So I've been

  involved in District 8 for some years.  I'm also a member

  of Mothers on the Move.  I was one of the founding

  members and I am chair, was chair for ten years, chair

  emeritus now.

                 Mothers on the Move is a grass roots

  community based organization in the South Bronx.  We're a

  member organization.  We have over 500 members and we

  fight for social justice.  We started around education

  ten years ago, but when we realized that there were other

  things in the neighborhood repeating children learning.

  We went into environmental issues and other issues,

  housing and all.

                 But my heart has always been in education

  and that's what I'm here to speak to tonight.  And I just

  want to apologize.  I don't have written testimony.  I

  didn't know we had to need it.  I always talk with

  bullets.  So -- okay, I first got involved I guess about

  ten years ago when my son was in I.S. 52, a failing

  school is District 8.  And even though I consider myself

  a very involved parent, when he was in P.S. 130 on the

  P.A. Boards and all of that, I didn't really realize how

  bad I.S. 52 was.

                 When he went there, there was no books.

  There was no lamps.  We didn't have the programs that

  other schools, even within our district let alone in the

  city had.  I was on the P.A. there, but basically parents

  were only involved in selling candy and doing things that

  the principal needed.  And it was at a meeting that

  someone handed out a flier, did you know this about your

  school?  Do you want to know more?  And I went to this

  group and that's where they were, Mothers on the Move

  then. And I found out information and that's one thing

  that I was shocked at.  That I was so unaware of the

  figures.  I did not know it was a SURR school.  I didn't

  realize that there was a cluster of failing schools.

                 You know, we were always told that it's an

  ineffective principal and that's why the kids are not

  learning.  It's the shelters in the neighborhood.  That's

  why the children are not doing as well.

                 But then when you see that you had ten

  schools right here in the small community all failing,

  you know it has to be something else.  You can't blame

  the principals.  It has to be the leadership.  And that's

  when we really organized and started going outside to get

  the information we need to see what could be done.

                  Not only did we not have access to

  information, but even to get to the schools, a lot of

  parents couldn't get to speak to a principal, were not

  welcomed in the school, and it was because it came from

  the district down at the School Board.  So what we

  started doing was finding out information.  We tried to

  meet with the Superintendent, tried to work with the

  District, but they really weren't interested.  That's why

  I mean I'll say I'm glad we're getting rid of the School

  Boards because District 8 School Board did not work.  It

  did not work for parents.  It did not work for the

  parents or children in the failing schools.

                 When we would go there, they didn't even

  want to meet with us because they felt you're an outside

  organization.  We're not going to meet with you as a

  group.  I said I'm a parent.  I'm on the P.A.  I have a

  child in this school and they still didn't want to hear

  me.  And that's how it was for several years.

                 So we had to work on things.  So we took

  it upon ourselves to start looking at what needed change.

  So when we realized the power the School Board had, we

  knew that it needed to be changed.  There were people on

  there 20 years with no children in the school.  The

  Superintendent was there for 20 years and just like

  forgot about our area.  One thing that we realized and I

  hope that changes with whatever structure you set up is

  that our district is very large.  And it was a mixed

  district where you had three distinct communities.  Hunts

  Point, Longwood Soundview and then Throgs Neck. And you

  know it went in different terms of the population and the

  economic status of those communities.

                 So it was really obvious in the beginning

  that the schools in the northern section of Throgs Neck

  had services that we didn't have.  Their reading scores

  were higher.  And it was actually that the School Board

  and the Superintendent allowed this to happen and allowed

  it to fail.

                  So that's why we put pressure on the

  School Board to do something and to make changes.  And we

  were always found to be activists and the School Board

  was very decisive.  They used to tell the parents in the

  other end that they want services and if we give them

  what they need, we will not have Pre-K.  So they hated

  us.

                 When we would show up at School Board

  meetings to talk, there were always issues.  So I think

  one thing that would be beneficial if smaller, you know,

  instead of having those three -- you know one School

  Board covering those three areas, having more local

  power, you know, for the schools that had something in

  common.

                 And with the School Leadership Teams, I

  was also a part of that in my daughter's school.  That

  happened to be one school that was functioning, P.S. 130,

  I was on and the principal was willing to work with us.

  So that was good.  But most parents and Mothers on the

  Move don't have that access.  In most schools the parents

  are hand picked.  They're not elected and that's the

  problem.  A lot of parents don't know this is here.  That

  that body was set up and that they could be a part of it.

                 So it's just defeating.  We say yeah, we

  have parents.  But if these parents are speaking for the

  principal and not the voice of the parents of community,

  that's an issue.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  I'll need for you to

  begin to wrap up so we can go to your other colleagues.

                 MS. JONES:  Okay.  So just --

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Five minutes goes by

  fast, I know.

                 MS. JONES:  Okay.  So I just want to say,

  to let you know what we have done to research this.

  We're not just coming out the blue with this.  I just

  highlighted a few points.  What we did was go -- you

  know, we always organize school visits where we went and

  took parents in the schools that didn't work and schools

  that worked.  So that's how they knew the difference.  I

  was a part of the State Regents Board Low Performance

  School Visiting Team, so I did that with them.  And that

  was a great working body of principals, State Regents,

  and parents.  We tried to copy that and we called that

  Community School Reviews that District 8 really wouldn't

  allow us to come in the schools to do.

                 We worked on coalitions.  We worked -- we

  started working with we formed the coalition with the

  parents organizing consortium.  We worked with the

  Community Campaign for Good Schools at NYU.  We worked on

  the School Board election.  We got out to vote one year

  and we really turned around and got the numbers out.

                 We worked with a coalition to -- that

  helped get members of our community on the School Board

  trying to do everything that would make a change.

  Another thing we did was we took parents in '96.  I was

  one of them.  I think it was about eight of us to Chicago

  to research their local School Councils.  And to see how

  they did and tried to bring that back and recommend.  And

  just some of the highlights -- I mean that was very

  empowering, me as a parent, going to see that.  And some

  of the key points that they had that --

  

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Try and do this

  quickly, please.

                 MS. JONES:  Okay, let me just say my

  recommendations.  I'm sorry.  One of the thing is there

  was a majority of School Boards -- the majority were

  parents.  There were six parents, two community members,

  two teachers, one principal.  They were elected.  They

  did it as a general election.  They went to the voting

  booth.  They were held on report card pick up day to

  bring out the parents' vote. You got to vote for five

  people whether they were School Board or parents.

                 They also had the power to higher and fire

  the principals.  They did evaluations annually and the

  contract was renewed after four years.  They had to come

  up so they had that power.

                 Also they mandated, which I think is

  essential here to mandate community members on the Board

  and not just make it arbitrary.  Me, as a community

  member who has a lot of experience, should be allowed to

  work on -- in conjunction with the other stakeholder.

  But I no longer have children in the district level.  So

  I think that's very important.

                 And parents need to have a real voice and

  there has to be accountability to the parents or this

  will not work.

                 I'm sorry I took too long.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  Again, I

  know the five minutes goes by fast, but I have to try to

  enforce that rule so we can hear everybody.  We've got at

  least another 20 people tonight.

                 Carmen Maldanado-Santos.

                 MS. MALDANADO-SANTOS:  Yes, good evening

  to the Task Force and I have a written testimony.  So

  I'll read off of that.

                 My name is Carmen Maldonado-Santos and I

  am a member of the Mothers on the Move and former PTA

  President of the New School for Arts and Sciences.  I was

  PTA President until my son graduated.  The New School for

  Arts and Sciences had a lot of principals.  But the

  latest principal we had, she wanted no -- she wanted to

  make all the changes without staff or parent input.  We

  could not be heard at all.  Our School Leadership Team

  did not work, because we were not allowed to -- nothing

  that was done had a consensus.

                 So, however, from my experience with the

  schools, I am now the PTA President of the Multicultural

  Magnet School, P.S. 212.  I strongly believe that parents

  should have a strong voice in the decisions about how

  schools run.  Failing test scores and safety statistics

  are not just numbers to us.  These are our children who

  are being affected.  That's why we need bodies like the

  School Leadership Teams.  Since they're based at the

  school, parents can more effectively get involved int he

  decision-making process about how a school should be run.

  

                 We want the respect of the principal and

  staff letting us know what they are planning to offer our

  children within the school facility.  School Leadership

  Teams have not been run as they should have.  They're

  supposed to be a place where all the stakeholder at the

  school, the principal, the staff, and the parents work

  together in collaboration to address the problems in the

  school by working with the budget or the school's

  educational plan.

                 However, many principals have been holding

  onto the power of these teams, and the legislation has

  not been strong enough to prevent this from happening.

  From my experience, principals have tried to run over the

  School Leadership Teams.  They have tried to have parents

  there just as a show, while making decisions without a

  consensus by all of us.  Also parents on the School

  Leadership Teams were not given access to information

  like test scores and the different committees within the

  school.  Parents cannot effectively address these issues

  at the school without this information.  Principals have

  not treated parents very well.  They have not welcomed

  parents into the school.

                 That's why we've been part of creating

  this Parent Organizing Consortium proposal.  Our solution

  calls for empowering the parents' role in the School

  Leadership Teams.  This includes giving parents more

  meaningful training and writing to legislation asking

  them to prohibit principals domination of the teams.  It

  means guaranteeing parents access to information about a

  school.  It means giving the teams with a parent majority

  the power to evaluate on a yearly basis, hire and make

  recommendations to fire a principal, or that they will be

  held accountable if it doesn't work.

                 If a principal doesn't welcome parents,

  how will you -- how will she or he entice them to become

  involved in schools.  Parents will not want to become

  involved in a school and that will hurt all the schools.

                 So, all principals should be held

  accountable for that.  I think so.

                 I've sat on a C-30 process that selected

  candidates for a principal, but that wasn't enough.

  After a principal is hired, they can become totally

  different people from the one that we interviewed.

  Unless they know that the School Leadership Team has the

  power to evaluation and even recommend to terminate them

  if they are failing our kids and our schools and not

  working with the Team democratically.  We want an open

  door policy for parents to be able to become part of the

  life of the school and get the information they need

  about it.                Real accountability comes when

  all the stakeholder at the school work together.  And if

  principals have to give up some of their control to share

  the power with parents, when the schools improve, it will

  be better for everyone, especially our children.

  

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you very much.

  Thank you.  Did you have testimony, sir?   Could you

  identify yourself so we have you on the record.

                 MR. JACKSON:  Okay.  My name is Kenneth

  Jackson.  I'm PTA President at CS-214.  I'm also Chair of

  their School Leadership Team.  I've been the Chairperson

  of the Leadership Team for the last four years and PTA

  President going into three years or so now.

                 I'm up at the podium with Mothers on the

  Move because I've been working with them over the last

  month or so trying to help them with their testimony and

  put some SLT components together for them.  Also within

  my own home district, because right now my school belongs

  to District 85.  But our home district is District 12.

  And as you can see from the people that are coming here

  to testify tonight, there's no one representing District

  12 at all.  I went to the district trying to find some

  organization in there that was going to respond to the

  Task Force from the state and also try to speak with the

  City Council who is holding similar hearings through the

  Education Committee and I couldn't find none within

  District 12.  So that gives you a statement of where

  their concerns are, knowing they're getting ready to get

  put out of business in a few months.

                 Okay, primarily what I'm here to talk

  about is two proposals.  The first one deals with School

  Leadership Teams as a whole.  Since I have a prepared

  text, I'll read from it.

                 With the impending elimination of

  Community School Boards slated to occur at the end of

  this current school year, it is imperative that the role

  of School Leadership Teams is strengthened and properly

  empowered to provide parents the means to effectively

  help govern the schools their children attend.

                 Having served on my school's Leadership

  Team for the past four years, I am fully acquainted with

  the actual limitation of authority and control all SLT's

  possess.  My first experiences as an SLT member were

  quite disheartening because the principal at that time

  more or less controlled the agenda and the discussion of

  the Team.  Since I was new, many basic things regarding

  the purpose and mission of the School Leadership Team

  were not explained to me nor were training opportunities

  provided.  The Team met on an ad hoc basis, was given

  information on things that the principal had already

  initiated in the school.

                 The other negative experience I

  encountered was from the District Level when about a year

  later the Team I was on, mostly new members, lost its

  allocation because none of the members knew that there

  was anything regarding a School Leadership Team budget.

  When we found out was primarily three days before the

  deadline.  And when we tried to spend it, we didn't spend

  it and we ended up losing everything, except the stipends

  which is mandated out of a separate budget that they had

  to pay.

                 So based on that, I spent that entire

  summer and when I came back as the Chair the next year, I

  made it my business to pick everybody's brain and to

  learn.  And when you have to do things on your own, it's

  very hard, but it forms a foundation that nobody can move

  you off of down the road.

                 Okay, to continue, when the New York State

  Legislature enacted the law establishing School

  Leadership teams, it was to be a forum for the parents to

  access the educational system at the grass roots level.

  However, the School Leadership Teams were never properly

  empowered with fiscal authority which is a mandatory must

  on a level to effectively impact upon the schools.

                 My proposals to correct this oversight are

  as follows:  An addendum to the current law stipulating

  that all School Leadership Teams must have parental

  majority representation on the Leadership Team.  Parents

  must Chair the Teams and also serve as the Chief Fiscal

  Officer on the Team.  Third, comprehensive training must

  be mandatory for all Team members on the Leadership Team.

  Parents, faculty, administrators, whoever gets on there,

  everybody has to be taught about what they need to do.

  School Leadership Teams must receive adequate financial

  resources to function independent of the Department of

  Education, because you can have a body that's supposed to

  administer governance and oversight and then they be

  holding by their purse strings to the same people they're

  looking after, so it's a conflict of interest.  Empower

  the School Leadership Teams with direct and full

  budgetary authority and control of the school's resources

  in all related matters.  Capital construction, the CEP's,

  payment for the staff, everything that goes on within the

  school if you're going to have people in there telling

  them that they have oversight control that you sit down

  and you do a budget, and you must give them the authority

  to actually do a budget.  And then enact that budget and

  stuff.

                 Direct appointment and approval of school

  administrators and all staff that goes within the school,

  along with termination recommendation authority.  Now I

  put termination recommendation authority because I

  realize everybody is human and it only takes

  personalities to clash when somebody says I want his job

  or I want her job.  So you have to have -- you can

  recommend, but I don't believe the SLT's at the local

  level should have the power to terminate without moving

  it one step outside the doors of that school in order for

  it to be fair and equitable.

                 Finally, the appointment of elected SLT

  members to a position on a District Level, School

  Leadership Council that will deal with regional borough

  wide issues that cannot be resolved at the local school

  level.

                 That's the first proposal for the School

  Leadership Teams.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Jackson, I'll have

  to ask you to summarize the conclusions of the page

  entitled Proposed Community School Board Replacement so

  we'll have some time for questions.

                 MR. JACKSON:  Okay, briefly what I foresee

  is that when you dismantle the School Boards the way they

  are right now, when the School Boards were put in place

  originally, 32 were created or -- they asked for 64.

  They got 32, but originally if you look at it, New York

  City system needs something larger.  My proposal is to

  break the school system down, cluster schools to form a

  partnership, a sisterhood if you will and the way I've

  broken it down is you would have at least four elementary

  schools in that cluster community zone that would go from

  Pre-K through the fifth grade.  You would have at least

  two or three combination schools that would go from Pre-K

  through eighth grade.  You would have four middle schools

  that would go from the sixth grade through the eighth

  grade and at last four high schools, three of them are

  academic and one would be technical or vocational and

  stuff for those people that don't want to go the academic

  route.

                 Now for all of that to work, they would

  have to be partnered with at least six colleges within

  their areas, two community colleges, one city university

  college, one state university college, one private

  foundation, and also at least two or three technical or

  trade schools for those people again that do not want to

  go into academia, but want to do something else with

  their life.

                 Now if you take that up I believe 12 to 15

  schools are small enough to be governable.  They can

  share the resources.  They would have a shared

  curriculum, and if they have student disciplinary

  problems, it would serve as an avenue where they could

  pick a student up, move him to a sister school with the

  background and the knowledge they put him in a new

  environment, that child will straighten out.  And if the

  schools are interconnected and interrelated, serving the

  same extended family community, they are not going to be

  fighting over resources, because the resources coming in

  are going to be shared.  All of them are going to be on

  the same page as they operate and it's small enough again

  where they're manageable.

                 Now each of them will have a School

  Leadership Team in place and members from the School

  Leadership Team will serve on a district level,

  Leadership Council if you will.  That would also extend

  and include people from the community base organization,

  the business community, et cetera.  And the other thing

  that I envision is if you take it one step higher and put

  it on a borough wide level.  This way you can bring in

  professionals from academia, from the business community,

  and from other places around the city and have them serve

  as an Advisory Panel and help guide the leadership

  councils who in turn would help advise and direct and

  make sure the Leadership Teams inside the schools are

  receiving the training and functioning properly.

                 MR. JACKSON:  One of the failures of the

  modern Community School Board, they're too big.  They're

  trying to manage something that they're not equipped to

  manage.  Okay, I'll take whatever questions you have.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay, well let me first

  of all thank the three of you individually and

  collectively for what was very thoughtful and very

  substantive testimony and we probably could have spent

  the whole night just talking with the three of you, but

  we can't afford to that, although we probably would have

  liked to.

                 Let me see if we have a couple of

  questions, brief if we can.  Miss Brown?

                 MS. BROWN:  I just have one question.  In

  your model for replacement of Community School Boards,

  would there still be a need for a Superintendent and what

  role would that Superintendent play?

                 MR. JACKSON:  Well in part of my component

  the Superintendent and stuff would function at the

  borough level with that Advisory Panel, with the business

  community, the professors and academics that you would

  have on there.  And they could serve to make sure that

  the guidelines educationally are in compliance for

  whatever it is the state law says they're supposed to be.

  They could also act as a review for the standardized

  tests that are going to go on within that borough.

                 On the smaller level with the Leadership

  Councils, you could have Deputy Superintendents that

  would be there again in a supportive role ensuring that

  the Department of Education is just not turning over the

  school system to people that don't know or have an idea

  of how to run it.

                 So there is a need for bureaucrats.  But

  how you utilize them must be specified and it must be

  direct so that they don't take over your life.  And then

  before you know it, instead of doing what they're

  supposed to do, they're counting beans, crossing T's,

  looking for pencils on floors and corners and all this

  other nonsense.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Assemblyman Rivera.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Yeah, question to Ms.

  Jones.  Ms. Jones you testified earlier that you were

  unaware that the school that you were involved in was not

  achieving.  And that not only the school you were

  involved in was not achieving, but there was a cluster of

  schools that were also not achieving.  Why do you think

  you were not made aware of that?  Why do you think you

  didn't have that kind of information?

                 MS. JONES:  Well because the principal --

  I mean there was never -- you know, parents were never

  notified of that.  And I, myself, because I was lucky.

  My children were in the gifted and talented program,

  which meant nothing because they were gifted in that

  school.  But when they went to high school, they were

  really failing, because what they gave a gifted program

  was nothing on the level of a regular program in most

  schools.  So I didn't realize until I started saying well

  what do you mean you have Spanish homework and you don't

  have a Spanish book.  I started investigating and

  realized.  But honestly I never knew that this school had

  only 28 percent of the students reading at grade level

  and it's been like that for years.  And I was not aware

  of that.  And that was the middle school.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Do you think that

  that's true overall, that most parents are unaware?

                 MS. JONES:  Yes.

                 ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:  Particularly parents

  that schools that are unachieving that they're unaware

  that their particular schools are not achieving to --

                 MS. JONES:  Yeah, you -- and what's really

  shocking is -- because that was like I said ten years

  ago.  If you ask a parent, parents don't realize.

  They'll say, what do you mean a SURR school.  A lot of

  parents don't understand that.  And it's shocking because

  now schools have to notify and send letters home.  I

  don't think it was like that when my child was in.  The

  letters don't go home.  Do you know how many parents have

  not received notice in the school, they don't get

  information about the after school tutoring.  So no, they

  don't know, unless -- you know that's why we do reach out

  and talk to parents.

                 I mean I was shocked when I saw this list.

  It was so amazing, the fact sheets of how many students

  in the school are reading at this level in this school,

  that school.  And I was embarrassed that I, an educated,

  knowledgeable, involved parent did not know this.

                 And that's why I got so involved and still

  am.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we want to thank

  the three of you very much.  I know that you represent

  thousands of other individuals who are part of Mothers on

  the Move.  We, as members of the Task Force are familiar

  with your work.  Mr. Jackson we are very grateful that

  you joined this Panel and gave us your insight with

  respect to School Leadership Teams as well as the School

  Boards, and I can assure you that your first hand, every

  day experiences are very important to us.  And we are

  very grateful you took the time to testify tonight.

                 Thank you.

                 MR. JACKSON:  Thank you.

                 MS. JONES:  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  There were four

  students who indicated when they arrived that they wanted

  to give some testimony to this Task Force.  I don't know

  if they are still here, but I'm going to call their names

  and I'd like the four of them if they are here to please

  come up together as a group at this table.

                 Elizabeth Sanchez, is Elizabeth Sanchez

  still here?  No.  Anna Gonzalez?  Bethsida Costillo?

  Mendez Rossi?  No.  Well we are sorry that they could not

  stay.

                 Okay.  Is Mr. Ted Weinstein still here,

  Executive Vice President for Community School Board #10.

                 MR. WEINSTEIN:  I thought I was going to

  close out the night, thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Let me just advise the

  audience some who have arrived after we began, that we

  are endeavoring very hard to keep the testimony to about

  five minutes so that we can allow for the maximum

  participation from everybody in the room tonight.

                 Mr. Weinstein.

                 MR. WEINSTEIN:  Thank you very much,

  Assemblyman Sanders and Rivera, those of you I know and

  those of you I don't know.  I greatly appreciate the

  opportunity to be here tonight.  I'm sorry, I don't have

  a prepared statement.  I find I generally try to come

  across best when I just speak what I feel.  I also have a

  cough, so I'll try not to cough into the mic too much.

                 I'll try not to be too repetitive of what

  you already heard.  But I came tonight to speak mainly

  about the importance of community involvement.  I don't

  have any illusions to think that come next July that

  Community School Boards in New York City will exist as

  they currently do.

                 But I do come to ask that there continue

  to be some type of a community involvement.  I'm who

  believes very strongly that this is a service, a very

  important government service that is important to

  everybody and should be important to everybody.  It's

  important not just --  you know we talk about community.

  Community is really society on a local level.  And

  therefore, if children can be adequately educated to then

  go out and participate in our society, there can't be

  anything more important than that.  And it's important

  for our society as a whole, and at the local level, it's

  important to our communities.

                 And I think having people from the

  communities involved in that and having their input is

  extremely important.  I guess I should start off by

  saying I am now the Executive Vice President of Community

  School Board 10.  I've been a member of the School Board

  for eight and half years.  Originally I was selected by

  the School Board to fill a vacancy.  It was the vacancy

  when Sandra Learner became a member of the Central Board

  and then I was elected in 1996 and 1999 in the elections.

                 I have found particularly in the last few

  years that we have been a School Board that has taken our

  role very seriously.  When a number of the powers were

  reduced, such as involved with personnel which was fine

  with me, it made easy when people didn't have to keep

  coming to me with resumes.  We concentrated on our role.

  Our role is to help determine educational policy in our

  area.  And if it wasn't for our School Board, our

  Community School Board, we wouldn't have had a number of

  the things that are going on now.

                 We now have gifted and talented programs.

  That would not have happened without us.  We've done --

  tried to do an analysis, bilingual programs.  That was

  not going to happen.  We have asked Central Board for

  information that normally was not being given out.

                 We have done these things and we think we

  have made a difference.  We have worked with our

  Superintendent, sometimes we disagree, very strongly, but

  we work because we all have the same goal.

                 We have taken the district Compliance

  Educational Plan which we have to do.  We take that very

  seriously.  You know some may think that this is

  something that's prepared by the administration of the

  district and then the School Board rubber stamps it.  A

  lot of our CEP comes from the Board itself.  We go over

  it.

                 Our president will be speaking tonight and

  he'll go into more detail about that.  We have become

  known for an analysis of the math curriculum that we

  continue to do now.  There is a math curriculum that is

  used in our district and parts of the city that parents

  were complaining to us.  They didn't feel that it was

  adequate.  They didn't feel it was teaching basic skills.

                 We've done our research on that.  We've

  had hearings.  We've had meetings.  We've had people come

  and talk about it.  And we have then set the policy for

  the District to not just use a math curriculum that

  hundreds of Nobel Prize winners and other prize winners

  have said is not useful.

                 And so we have taken our role very

  seriously.  And it's the people from the community who

  have put us there to do that.  I mean listen, one of the

  questions earlier was about how do we -- how does the

  School Board hear from the community.  One of the things

  that we do is we have our monthly meetings at different

  schools.  Every month we rotate around the district.  And

  so therefore we make ourselves available to the entire

  district.

                 And so each month we go and we sit up at a

  dias and we do our business and we listen to what people

  have to say.  We do -- and I'm not sure that most School

  Boards do this.  We do a role call of every school in the

  district.  And as you've already heard tonight, District

  10 is the largest school district in the city.  That's a

  lot of schools.  And we'll sit there and we'll listen to

  the people who represent the parent associations of those

  schools, come up and tell us about their issues and their

  problems.

                 As far as community members, you know the

  custom of the system, and someone said something earlier

  about the custom of the system, the custom of the system

  is the student, the child.  That's who has to benefit

  from this.  And without question obviously a five year

  old cannot represent themselves in terms of fighting for

  the system, fighting for what they get, for what they

  deserve, and so the parents do that.

                 But it's so important to have community

  people involved, because you do bring an expertise.  You

  bring a caring to the system that isn't otherwise there.

  Those of us who have been involved in School Boards and

  elections know that when you go around, you're constantly

  being told by people oh, I don't have kids in the

  schools.  It doesn't affect me.

                 Well as I've already said, good effective

  schools, good effective education, affects our entire

  society.  And to have people from the community involved

  is very important.  If it wasn't for -- you go to that

  community members, we wouldn't be able to have

  educational professionals on our Board.

                 And I'll just talk about my Board.  Like

  we had a Sandra Learner.  We had a Rose McKenna, who we

  didn't always necessarily agree on everything, but she

  brought an expertise and a class to the Board that I

  appreciated her being there all the time.

                 We currently have someone who is the

  Chairman of a college math and computer science

  department.  Myself, my children were in the public

  school system in my district.  At the point that they

  left, they're now in college, but at the point that they

  left, I didn't forget what it's like to be a parent.  I

  didn't forget what was important.

                 I started off in the school, but actually

  it was the same month that they were leaving the local

  district.  The ability to have people who can bring a

  knowledge, bring something to the system, and of the nine

  of us, I should say four of us do currently have children

  in our local schools.  And then there are others, like I

  said, who had parents in the system at different times,

  and there were those who have younger children who are

  there because they want to help improve the schools.  So

  that when their children reach that age, the schools will

  be able to serve them as well.

                 So again, I don't want to be too

  repetitive of other things that you've heard or will

  hear, but the importance of a community involvement is

  something that I think I have seen over these years.

  This is my ninth year now on the Board and I think that

  we have made a difference and I know there are things

  that would not be going on in our district if it wasn't

  for the fact that we had a Community School Board.

                 You've heard about high schools.  We have

  two schools that are in the process of becoming middle

  school, high schools.  That would not have happened if it

  wasn't for having a Community School Board.  So I'm

  actually very proud of what we've done and it's not for

  me personally.  I mean it comes next July, if it's not me

  and it's someone else, that's fine.  But I think that

  it's very important.

                 One of the things that I've tried to push

  over the years as well are an involvement of schools with

  the merchant association in the area, creation of alumni

  associations for people from the community who went to

  the schools to contribute.  A lot of these things can be

  done, as long as in the end, schools identify with their

  communities and the communities identify with their

  schools.  The schools can only benefit by doing that.

                 And without in any way reducing the

  importance of parental involvement, again, I'm a parent.

  One of the things I was a little sorry about in being on

  the School Board is that it took away my time to be

  involved in my own children's schools.  But I think it's

  just so important to have as many good people as

  possible, and people who want to give the time and are

  willing to give the time and to bring that kind of

  passion and expertise to the Boards.  And I would just

  hope that the recommendation of the Task Force is to

  continue some type of a community involvement.

                 And I'll be happy to answer any questions.

  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you very much.

  Mr. Friedman.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Hi Ted, how are you?

                 MR. WEINSTEIN:  Hi, Jack.

                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  We've heard testimony from

  other parts of the city regarding School Boards as their

  currently constituted and the fact that some of the

  school districts are having difficulties with their

  superintendents because they no longer have a valuative

  role in the hiring or the retaining of the

  superintendent.  And also there's been talk that it's

  very difficult to separate educational policy from

  budget.

                 Since we're now being charged with making

  a recommendation to revamp this whole thing over again,

  are there any things that current School Boards cannot do

  which maybe they used to do, or current things they do

  that you wouldn't want them to do.  How would you revamp

  a new district leadership council, District School Board?

  Which powers would you retain and which powers might you

  add back?

                 MR. WEINSTEIN:  I'm satisfied not having

  us involved in actual administration.  I think that we

  have enough to do and we don't even find enough time to

  do all the evaluation of educational policy that we would

  like.  Again, I talk about how we spent time on the math

  curriculum.  A few years ago we spent time on the reading

  curriculum.

                 We had a big debate on our Board about

  whole language versus phonics.  You know things like

  that, the gifted and talented programs knowing that we're

  trying to get more of our children to be able to go into

  the specialized high schools.  Where a District that was

  once the highest sender of children to the specialized

  high schools in the city and we're no longer so.

                 I'm and maybe this is my own personal

  bent, but I'm personally happy focusing on educational

  policy, and working with the superintend to have her and

  her administration carry out those policies that we come

  up with.  And we -- we're a Board that has over the years

  disagreed with our superintendent very often.  And yet we

  appreciate her efforts, the time that she puts in and her

  staff.  And we usually try to work something out.  And

  there have been very strong disagreements on policy.  And

  usually when it's up, there's some kind of compromise as

  to what is best, you know serving the benefit of the

  children, the purpose of the children.  What can you do

  that serves the children in terms of different types of

  viewpoints.

                 Very often it's not one extreme or the

  other.  It's some type of balance.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well Mr. Weinstein, we

  thank you very much.  In fact we're going to call up now

  your President and I'm sure he will fill in whatever

  things you may have missed.  Although I don't think you

  missed too much, Mr. Weinstein.  Thank you very much for

  being here.

                 Before I call Mr. Cordell Schachter, let

  me just -- just so the folks will know they're on deck.

  We're going to have a Panel of four individuals after Mr.

  Schachter from the Parent Organizing Consortium

  consisting of Francis Calderon, Silky Martinez, Oswald

  White and Jessie MacDonald.  So you want to just be ready

  to come up in a moment.

                  And now we will hear from Cordell

  Schachter, who is the President of Community School Board

  10.

                 MR. SCHACHTER:  Thank you very much.

  Greetings from Community School Board 10, Co-Chair

  Assemblyman Sanders, Assemblyman Rivera and other

  distinguished members of the Panel.

                 It gives me great pleasure to address you

  tonight and to describe our vision of reforms to current

  Community School Board election and practices that we

  believe will improve the quality of education in New York

  City.

                 Our District, as you know, is the largest

  in the city, one of the largest in New York State,

  educating over      44,000 students in 53 schools from

  Pre-Kindergarten through high school.

                 Most community school districts do not

  over see high schools.  Among Community School Board 10's

  recent reforms and initiatives were the creation of two

  middle school high schools to serve grades six through

  twelve.

                 Tonight I'd like to share with you our

  process recommendations for improving the election of

  Community School Board to New York City.  We believe

  these procedures will improve the quality of Community

  School Boards by increasing their accountability to

  parents and their local communities.  I'll read the

  resolution of the board that we passed at our November

  21st public meeting that followed a public hearing at

  which members of the public overwhelming supported

  popularly elected Community School Boards.

                 I'll then concludes with three important

  reasons to preserve popular elected Community School

  Boards in New York City.  Our resolution is entitled No

  Public Education Without Elected Representation.

  Maintain Elected Community School Boards in New York

  City.

                 Whereas the community served by Community

  School Board 10 spoke at a public hearing on October 24,

  2002 on the subject of the future of parent and community

  participation in the creation of policy and plans for

  public education in New York City, and

                 WHEREAS, the speakers at this hearing

  overwhelmingly supported the continuation of elected

  representation int he creation of policy and plans in New

  York City public education, and

                 WHEREAS, Community School Board 10 has

  shown that an elected community school board can made

  significant positive contributions to educational policy

  making and planning within its district, and

                 WHEREAS, the members of Community School

  Board 10 understand that changes must be made to improve

  the functioning of elected community representation in

  New York City public education, and

                 WHEREAS, Community School District 10 is

  the largest in the city and its size makes it more

  difficult for individual parents or parent associations

  to impact district policy, and

                 WHEREAS, Community School Board 10

  believes that school boards overseeing smaller districts

  with boundaries that match groups of existing

  neighborhoods would provide more effective representation

  to their constituent, now therefore

                 BE IT RESOLVED, that Community School

  board 10 adopts the following recommendations for future

  goals and structure for community school boards in New

  York City and urges the New York Sate Legislature to

  adopt them as well:

                 1.)  The currently eligible voters with a

  community school district would popularly elect Community

  School Board members in a non-partisan manner in November

  every two years, concurrent with elections for New York

  State Legislature.  The Community School Board candidates

  with the nine great numbers of votes should comprise the

  Community School Board for the following two years.

                 2.)  There should be one Community School

  Board and one Community Superintendent in each community

  school district.  Community School Board 10 urges the

  Chancellor, Mayor, and state legislature to reduce the

  size of District 10 and also equalize the size of all New

  York City community school districts.

                 3.)  Community School Boards should have

  the responsibility of setting local district educational

  zoning, and new construction/leasing policy consistent

  with current New York State law and should continue with

  the current practice of contributing to and approving the

  District Comprehensive Educational Plan.

                 4.)  Community School Boards should

  participate in the process that decides to retain or

  recruit new community superintendents.  Community School

  Boards should make recommendations to the chancellor who

  now has sole authority over the community superintendents

  according to the new New York State law.

                 5.)  Community School Boards should meet

  at least monthly, be governed by open meeting laws, and

  provide the general public the opportunity to participate

  in, view, debate and discuss the establishment or

  changing of district educational policy consistent with

  current law and practice.

                 Our explanation.  Past proportional voting

  every three years in May has produced Community School

  Boards comprised in many cases of members representing

  special interests instead of the general interest and the

  common good.  Broadly conducted popular elections held in

  November along with state legislative elections should

  confer an additional degree of legitimacy on Community

  School Boards and increase public interest and

  participation including that from minority communities

  proportional voting was meant to facilitate.  These

  changes and the preservation of the Community School

  Boards policy making responsibilities should improve

  public participation in the process of education New York

  City's 1,000,000 school children.

                 In conclusion, I'd like to summarize three

  important reasons to preserve elected Community School

  Boards in New York City.  They fist nicely into the

  acronym:  AIM.

                 First, preserving elected community school

  boards preserves Accountability to Parents.  Children now

  in our system have no time to wait for grand plans to be

  formed and implemented.  Direct popular election of

  community school board members presents the most

  effective means of parents influencing the plans,

  policies and practices that impact their children now.

                 Second, preserving elected community

  school boards preserved Involvement with the Local

  Community.  Public education needs broad based support to

  achieve priority treatment among other competing civic

  interests.  Since on 20 percent of the population has

  children in the public system at any given time, direct

  public election of community school board members

  supports the participation of local community members and

  keeps the system engaged in providing students ready for

  higher education and careers.

                 Third, preserving elected community school

  boards preserves an educational Marketplace of Ideas.  No

  mayor, chancellor, board or department of education will

  ever have all the answers to satisfying all the needs of

  New York City's 1 million school children in over 1,000

  schools.  A vibrant exchange of information and rigorous

  debate is absolutely necessary to ensure that the system

  implements only the bet ideas, policies, and practices.

  The need for an educational Marketplace of Ideas is now

  especially acute to balance the Mayor's new, broad powers

  to control public education in New York City.

                 Thank you very much for this opportunity

  to present our resolution and my views supporting the

  preservation of popularly elected community school boards

  in New York City.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. Schachter we

  certainly thank you and your other colleagues from

  District 10 who have been here today and tonight.  Let me

  see if we may have a question or two for you.

                 I think between you and Mr. Weinstein in

  the last few minutes you've covered the area very well.

  I would only observe that I find it very interesting,

  something you may already know.  That the next largest

  school district in the entire state after Community

  School District 10, is in fact the entire New York City

  school district and the third largest district, the one

  just smaller than yours, is Buffalo.

                 MR. SCHACHTER:  Right.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  So you have managed a

  very large responsibility and obviously we understand why

  your testimony will suggest we ought to make the school

  districts smaller in New York City and a little more

  equal.

                 Thank you very much.

                 MR. SCHACHTER:  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  I'd like to mention I

  was remiss a few minutes ago.  We were joined a little

  while ago by Assemblywoman Audrey Pheffer from Queens.

  She was here for all of the day and returned this

  evening.  Welcome back Audrey and just for all of your

  edification, the Co-Chair of this Task Force, Terri

  Thomson who had some shoulder surgery yesterday has been

  listening to these proceedings.  We have her hooked up by

  telephone right to her bedside.  So she is listening to

  this testimony, even though she is taking some Motrin, I

  imagine.  She's a trooper.

                 We have four individuals that I will now

  call up from the Parent Organizing Consortium, Francis

  Calderon, Silky Martinez, Oswald White, Jessie MacDonald.

  I will ask you to testify in whatever order you would

  like to.  Just try to confine your individual remarks to

  no more than five minutes and as you begin your

  testimony, just identify yourself so our reporter will

  know who is speaking and when.

                 MS. MARTINEZ:  Okay, good evening.  First

  I would like to introduce the Parent Organizing

  Consortium and the POC as a citywide coalition of

  community organizations that work in low performing and

  low income schools in districts in New York City.  We are

  representatives of the Bronx based POC groups including

  Mothers on the Move, Neighbors in Highbridge, New

  Settlement Apartments, and the Northwest Bronx Community

  and Clergy Coalition.

                 My name is Silky Martinez from Mothers on

  the Move, and Parent Organizing Consortium.

                 MS. CALDERON:  Good evening.  My name is

  Francis Calderon.  I'm a member of Neighbors in

  Highbridge and also part of POC.  Basically I have

  written what I'm going to read off to the Panel.  It's

  our Principals in Action, a proposal based on School

  Leadership Teams with real democracy and accountability

  and power.

                 Parent Participation:  School Leadership

  Teams meetings must be well publicized and open to the

  public.  The meeting schedules should be sent by mail to

  all parents with children in the schools.

                 The SLT's should continue to create and

  approve the Comprehensive Education Plan (the CEP) and

  school budget.  The SLT's should also approve all Title I

  expenditures.

                 CEP's and school budgets must be readily

  available for all parents with children in the school.

                 Parents should have a voting majority on

  SLT's.

                 And at least one seat on the SLT's should

  be reserved for representative from the community.

                 SLT meetings should be held after 6:00

  P.M. so that working parents are able to attend.

                 A part time staff person should be

  assigned to each SLT to ensure communication and parent

  participation.

                 Also Elections:  All parents with children

  in the school must be sent information by mail about how

  to run for a seat ont he SLT at least 90 days before the

  election.

                 SLT elections should be held annually.

                 SLT elections must be widely publicized by

  mail at least 30 days in advance.

                 Once selected, all SLT members should be

  required to attend SLT trainings.

                 Holding the Principal Accountable:  All

  candidates for principal must be approved by the SLT.

                 The SLT should conduct an annual

  evaluation of the principal, actively soliciting input

  from all parents with children in the school.

                 SLT's should have the power to hire or

  fire the principals of the schools.

                 Holding the SLT's Accountable:  An

  independent oversight mechanism with parent

  representation should be implemented to ensure that SLT's

  are established and run in accordance with regulations.

                 The superintendent should hold monthly

  public meetings in the district to provide parents and

  community members with a public forum for school related

  concerns that are not being addressed by the SLT's.

                 Also, from the Principles of School

  Governance Reforms, point three where there must be a

  decisive parent and community role in hiring and firing

  schools superintendents and principals.  Thank you.

                 MS. MARTINEZ:  Good evening ladies and

  gentlemen.  Once again, my name is Silky Martinez and I

  will be presenting my testimony this evening.

                 My name is Silky Martinez and I am a

  member of Mothers on the Move.  Mothers on the Move is a

  membership based social justice community group in the

  South Bronx and it is a member organization of the Parent

  Organizing Consortium.  Our members come from Districts

  7, 8, 9, and 12, where 52 of our schools are failing

  thousands of children.  I've lived int he Bronx for 18

  years, and I was educated in District 12 in the Bronx.

  My daughter will be old enough to go to school in 2005 in

  the South Bronx and that's why I'm involved now to

  improve schools.  Back when I was in school, parents were

  welcomed into schools.  This was good for the schools

  because parents were able to help supervise the kids'

  activities and help teachers, since the schools were

  overcrowded.  Back then, the principals were more

  accepting of releasing information to parents about the

  schools.

                 But now true parent involvement is

  discouraged by the schools now, especially in low income

  communities of color where we're not being allowed to sit

  at the table to make governance decisions.  As a member

  of Mothers on the Move for the past two years, I've seen

  the struggle of the MOMs members who have kids in public

  schools who are near us.  In our own neighborhood, where

  the schools are failing, parents are being kept out of

  the schools and not being given information on how the

  schools are doing, and what opportunities are open to

  parents for being involved in improving their schools.

  With Mothers on the Move, I visited other schools to

  compare them to schools in our neighborhood.  We were

  actually surprised to see that these good schools

  actually welcomed parents.

                 That's why as members of the Parent

  Organizing Consortium we have a proposal to strengthen

  parent leadership on the School Leadership Teams.  The

  School Leadership Teams where the parent leadership is

  strong and are able to bring meaningful changes to their

  schools, because they're at the school and they get to

  make decisions about the school's educational plan and

  its budget.  However, most School Leadership Teams in our

  area are governed by the principal and staff because they

  pick and choose parents they want on the leadership team

  and they're obligated to say yes to their decisions and

  proposals.  Parents on the School Leadership Teams are

  not being informed that they have the right to say no to

  the proposals and to speak their mind about problems at

  the school.

                 That's why we're calling for these two now

  powers of parents and community members that will

  counterbalance the power of our school staff.  Our

  proposals call for making parents the voting majority on

  School Leadership Teams.  Our proposal also --

                 MS. MARTINEZ:  -- calls for giving School

  Leadership Teams the power to hire and fire and evaluate

  the principal.  We are also calling for a role for

  community members on the School Leadership Teams.  I have

  a two year old daughter who will be entering school in a

  couple of years, and what's going on in the schools is my

  business too.  There's no reason why I shouldn't be

  involved.  I want the schools to improve Now so that my

  daughter can have a fair chance when they enters school.

                 As I said, I am struggling with the system

  because I am worried that there won't be too much

  improvement in the schools when my daughter enters school

  in two years, unless you take the advantage of this

  opportunity to create a new school governing structure

  that gives parents and community members decision making

  power.  That way parents and concerned community members

  like me are committed to improving schools, can have the

  powers to work in our local schools to find ways to make

  them better.

                 We parents are tired of being told to be

  involved and then we don't have the power or information

  to make decisions about our children's schools and we

  want to be heard now.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.

                 MR. WHITE:  Good evening ladies and

  gentlemen.  My name is Oswald White.  I'm a member of the

  Parent Action Committee, the collaboration to improve the

  schools in District 9 and the PLC, a few other

  organizations which I don't think I should have to name.

                 I'm here tonight to make a little

  testimony from personal observations and personal

  dealings, and I hope nobody will become offended.

                 My subject is principals.  I've had a lot

  of dealings with principals.  I've had a lot of good

  things, a lot of bad things.  The bad things out number

  the good.

                 I've sat here tonight and listened to

  people blow their horns, which is okay.  Everybody wants

  to get their thing across.  But principals are the key to

  all good schools.  All good schools.  This is a proven

  fact verified by personal observation, research and what

  statistics show.

                 During the years that I have been working

  with children and working in the capacity of a child

  educational advocate, I have observed that those schools

  with good leadership that show accountability are those

  schools that work well from the top down, especially in

  the instances where there is no outside interference.  My

  reason for this last statement is based on personal

  observation as I said before, having to do with my own

  children in more than one school in the Bronx, in

  District 9.  Not wanting to embarrass anybody, I want to

  leave the names of the schools unannounced.  Unless it

  becomes extremely necessary for me to name them.

                 Having on occasion questioned principals

  as to why teachers were not in their classroom as they

  ought to have been or to have questioned why teachers

  were arguing loudly in the halls pointing out that they

  are not setting a good example, on those instances there

  seem to have been a stock answer.  And that answer was

  things aren't what they used to be.  We can't do what we

  want to do.

                 There's a message in there.  I hope

  everybody gets it.  And when I pointed out that this is

  your school and you set the tone, the answer was we still

  cannot do what we want to do.  We still have to follow

  orders.

                 Well what kind of order is it that keeps a

  principal from being innovative, from keeping order in

  his school, and keeping his teachers in line?  What kind

  of orders are these?  Where do they come from?

                 I have never forgotten it and I won't

  forget it.  This told me that the principals were not the

  true leaders of their schools.  Now I don't know about

  every school, because I can't speak for every school, but

  I could speak for those schools that I have dealt with,

  and they all seem to be in District 9.

                 They are not allowed to run the schools in

  the manner that would maintain order both among pupils

  and the teaching staff, but are stymied by some higher

  force.

                 What we propose here today, is that those

  higher forces work with the parents to help the

  principals, because the parents know what they want for

  their children.  They want a sensitive principal.

  Principals being the key to all good schools as I stated

  earlier should be monitored, well chosen, and principals

  should be evaluated, mentored and given the proper tools,

  whether they be in writing, oral, or mechanical to do

  their job properly.

                 Distributed through out the audience is a

  proposal gathered by the POC, based on things that are

  known to work throughout the country and other

  communities.  This proposal calls for parents to have the

  voting majority in School Leadership Teams that all

  candidates for principals be approved by the School

  Leadership Teams.  That School Leadership Teams conduct

  an annual evaluation of the principal, actively influence

  the hiring, or the firing of the principals of any school

  since the new School Leadership Teams will be made up of

  parents and concerned community members.

                 I will end this little short testimony by

  stating that in the future or even starting now, let us

  no longer settle for good.  For good is not enough.  It's

  not good enough, when there's better, better, best and

  excellent to be had.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.

                 MS. MC DONALD:  Good evening.  My name is

  Jessie McDonald and I'm from Mothers on the Move and I'm

  here as a parent also.  And I'm just going to like

  conclude what every parent has said here tonight.  And

  that's about parents today, we want some type of

  stakehold, some type of power in decision making for our

  children.

                 Now everything you hear tonight is team

  leadership.  And I'm for team leadership also.  Because

  that's all we have.  That's the only thing parents have

  that you have some type of stakehold that you feel you

  have.  I know in the team leadership that I was in, that

  made me feel like I was a stakeholder in my child's

  school.  And the reason because of that, it was a great

  school team leadership.  The principal allocated the

  budget.  We was a part of the budget.  For each parent,

  there was a staff.  Then also there was a high school so

  we had students there also who made the greatest

  decisions.  Because they knew what they wanted and we

  listened to them.  And money that was in the budget was

  allocated to some of those things that the students

  bought out, such as like -- it was a portfolio school.

  And the children needed time to help to get portfolios

  and how to write portfolios because they wasn't really

  used to this type of curriculum.

                 The principal wrote a grant.  We got the

  money.  We got three hundred thousand and what we did, we

  set up after school, but we had to share it with another

  school.  We set up the after school program that it was

  recommended through the students though.  But I'm saying

  if you have a good team leadership, it would work

  perfect, because it did.

                 But then at the same time, you could have

  a team leadership coming out of the PTA that's hand

  picked and information just given to the principal and

  parents don't have no clue.  Because I heard one person

  testimony said that the first year that he was there, he

  was just going along with what the principal say, which

  is true.  You do go along with what the principal say.

                 They send you letters to come to team

  leadership workshops which is down at Long Island City,

  which is hard for parents that are working, parents that

  are single, for that time of night to travel from the

  Bronx, Brooklyn, or Queens to get to these places for

  these workshops.  So that's like left information for the

  parents.

                 I think in order to get more parents to

  cooperate with these programs and team leadership is to

  give us more information.  Most parents here tonight say

  they research their own information, which is sad.  That

  as a parent we have to go out and research information

  that should be a given to us and our children.

                 So I'm trying to express that we want

  power.  I heard tonight that the principals, we should be

  able to evaluate the principals and have a part in that

  firing process is there's one.  It don't make any sense

  to have a principal -- we set up this evaluation program

  and once we evaluate them, they stay there.

                 We have failing schools in South Bronx for

  years.  Schools have been SURR schools for five, six,

  seven years and they changed the school, they changed the

  principal and the business is usual.

                 Therefore parents need -- because we know

  what we need in our school.  And I think if you give

  parents the power, you know, if you give parents power,

  that we can bring other parents in.  Parents are so

  intimidating.  This is years of intimidation that these

  parents has taken, so they're afraid to go in the

  schools.  I heard someone mention tonight we have a lot

  of immigrants.  If they don't do what some of these

  teachers, they threaten them with the BCW and things for

  their children.  So this draws parents away from the

  schools.

                 In stead of bringing parents to school, we

  have to set it up to get parents real power, voting

  power.  We had the School Board election.  We knew the

  School Board election didn't work, as the way -- like one

  of your members mentioned earlier about the School Board

  election and the School Board itself and the way it was

  ran.  We have actually parents witness School Board

  meetings and try to ask the other why are our schools

  failing and the school in another apartment, same

  district that's doing so well, everybody would have

  probably got up, walked out and laughed at us.

                 How do we feel as parents?  How many

  parents did we lose because they said we're not going to

  get nowhere.  So I'm here tonight to express the only

  thing why you head so much team leadership, team

  leadership, that's all we have.  That's all we have that

  what we see we have power.  PTA is no power.  PTA is

  selling cookies, doing what the principal allocate us to

  do.

                 So we come tonight and I'm stressing this,

  and I think that if it's going to be a new school

  governance, parents must be involved.  You must give us

  power, some type of power so we could feel like we have

  investment in our children's school.  Like I said, I felt

  like that.  And I work hard in the school.  And my

  daughter work hard and she moved on.  She graduated and

  she moved on to college now.

                 And then give them an insight.  If they

  could see their parents are people really interested,

  because so many of our children is lost, because they

  think no one's interested.

                 But if you go in a school land you get

  turned out, how could we?  So we ask them please, let

  want more voting power.  We want accountability of these

  principals and superintendents.  We want to be able to be

  in voting power.  And if they not doing their job right,

  they shouldn't stay in that position.  They shouldn't

  fail our kids for no longer.  They failed for years.

  That's long enough.  That's it.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we thank you very

  much.  Before I ask if there are any questions, I just

  want to briefly observe that in my time and capacity as

  Chairman of the Assembly Education Committee, I've had a

  number of opportunities to talk with members of the

  Parent Organizing Consortium on many occasions, both in

  New York City and at times when you've been gracious

  enough to come up to Albany and talk to myself and

  Assemblyman Rivera and Audrey Pheffer.  And as always, I

  have found your ideas to be very well rooted in important

  experiences that really only parents can understand as

  they try to navigate through the education system.

                 So we appreciate you all being here this

  evening and giving us the benefit of your insight.

                 Let me see if we may have a question or

  two.  Ms. Brown?

                 MS. BROWN:  You mentioned that you were a

  part of your School Leadership Team.  We you elected

  through your P.A.?

                 MS. MC DONALD:  Yes, I was already in a

  PTA and that's basically what happens.  I'm sorry, let me

  elaborate on that.  Basically the reason that happened

  because parents really don't have no clue what team

  leadership is.  So basically through the PTA, that's

  usually where they pull their people out of.  Now if they

  gave more parents information, maybe they might be

  interested.  Because you don't have to be a PTA member to

  join the team leadership.

                 MS. BROWN:  But you were elected from a

  PTA membership meeting to sit on a School Leadership

  Teams?

                 MS. MC DONALD:  I was appointed.  Not

  elected.

                 MS. BROWN:  Oh, you were appointed to your

  school --

                 MS. MC DONALD:  Yes.

                 MS. CALDERON:  That's why we're here.  We

  don't want that to happen again.

                 MS. BROWN:  Okay.  And then you mentioned

  that the schools are low performing.  Is that a function

  of people just not knowing what to do to move children

  forward?  Or is it a function of School Board not

  monitoring the superintend and the plan the

  superintendent had for the district?

                 MS. MC DONALD:  That's it.  That's it.

  That's what I believe it is.  Because it couldn't be the

  parents, because the parents -- if we don't know the

  information, how could be -- if we can't get in the

  school door, if we can't even go to the District and get

  the information, how are we going to hep our children.

  We can't get there.  It seems like a cliche but it's the

  truth.

                 You go in some schools you're not passing

  the door, and especially if they found out you're a

  community organizing groups.  Forget about it.

                 MS. BROWN:  Just one final question.  Did

  you also think that maybe the School Board was not

  equipped with the information that they needed to ask?

                 MS. MC DONALD:  Yes, they had it.  They

  just didn't give it out.  And if they give it out, they

  give it out the last minute.

                 MR. WHITE:  Like the day before the event.

                 MS. MARTINEZ:  Exactly the day before the

  event.   If we're luck maybe four hours before.  If they

  really want to be gracious and just even let us know.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Miss Wylde and the Mr.

  DeLeon.

                 MS. WYLDE:  If you thought your children

  were getting a good education, would you still want this

  power?

                 MS. MC DONALD:  Yes, of course.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Mr. DeLeon?

                 MR. DE LEON:  Mr. White, you illuded to

  something about outside power interfering with principals

  doing their job.  Do you want to elaborate a little more

  on that?

                 MR. WHITE:  Why sure.  First of all you

  don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what

  somebody tells you.  Okay?  If I told you --

                 MR. DE LEON:  Well I'm not a rocket

  scientist.

                 MR. WHITE:  Hold it.  If I told you that I

  no longer speak English from now until next week, you

  would have to accept what I told you.  Well this is what

  the principals are telling me, that they cannot do what

  they want to do.  They are not -- we have that every day.

  Why do you think principals don't call the police when

  they have incidents in their school?  Why do you think

  that happens?

                 MR. DE LEON:  Well if that's a rhetorical

  question, then I won't answer it.  But if you're asking

  me directly for a number of reasons that we both know.

  They don't want that kind of attention.  But I'm curious

  because --

                 MR. WHITE:  No, because they are told to

  call the Board first and the Board will decide whether

  you call the police.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Okay, so are you saying that

  the elected School Board instructs the principals not to

  --

                 MR. WHITE:  Thank you.

                 MR. DE LEON:  All right, but is it the --

  see now I'm curious.  Because what I heard in different

  occasions, it's just the Superintendent that tells.  So

  which is it?  Is it the School Board or the --

                 MR. WHITE:  Well it's the superintendent

  or the School Board, it's the same thing.  He cannot do

  what or she cannot do what they want to do because they

  are not permitted to do it directly.

                 MR. DE LEON:  Okay.

                 MR. WHITE:  Come on.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay.  I think we

  understand each other here.  I think we do.  We thank you

  very much for your time and your patience with us in

  sharing your experiences and your valuable

  recommendations, thank you.

                 MR. WHITE:  Thank you for having us.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Our next speaker is the

  President of the PTA of P.S. 60, Altagracia Cruz.  Is Ms.

  Cruz here?

                 THE INTERPRETER:  She's going to read

  something in Spanish and I'll translate.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay.

                 THE INTERPRETER:  She says that she wants

  to read it in Spanish because that way she will be able

  to express herself better.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Gracias

  THE INTERPRETER:  My name is Altagracia Cruz.  I want to

  thank you very much for taking your time in hearing my

  testimony.  And I am very glad that you guys are here in

  the Bronx listening to the commentary of all the

  different entities that are here tonight.

                 I represent the Leadership Team and I am

  President of the PTA of P.S. 60.  And I also am involved

  in the Leadership Team and the PTA of the satellite high

  school.   In the satellite high school in the bronx, the

  School Leadership Teams is very efficient because

  teachers and workers respect the parents and keep us

  informed and give us the truth to express our own

  opinions.

                 I believe the parents have the right to

  decide representing our kids in our schools.  I think we

  have the obligation of work together to build a better

  community.  That's why parents need to have more control

  over the decisions that affect our kids.

                 I think parents deserve to have the

  freedom to express their ideas and the ideas of their

  children about their education.  The majority of the

  parents, she believes need more training to learn how to

  claim the rights that they have.  I am going through a

  similar process right now, but not only me.  There are a

  lot of parents who feel the same.

                 I have a problem right now with my school

  which is P.S. 60, because I open my mind and I claim my

  rights.  Giving information to other mothers and parents.

  Okay, and I was trying to help other parents giving them

  information about what's going on in the school.  I've

  been representing my community for 20 years and right now

  because I was brave enough to air some irregularities

  that were going on in our school, there are qualifying me

  as a liar.  And I am really offended by that.

                 And I am here to let you know that we need

  to work together for a better community.  And I give all

  my support to the POC and to the parents and I hope that

  we can get the power that we need to keep moving forward.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you.  Muchos

  grasias.  And before I just ask if there are any brief

  questions, I just want to express our appreciation for

  you coming down tonight and I can assure you that there

  is no language barrier.  We understood exactly what you

  were saying to us and we listened and we heard.

                 THE INTERPRETER:  She understand.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay.  Thank you.  We

  thank you you again.

                 Yolanda Gonzales?  Yolanda Gonzales is

  also a parent advocate from I.S. 174 and P.S. 182, is

  that correct?

                 MS. GONZALES:  Correct.  GoOd evening Task

  Force.  My name is Yolanda Gonzales and I'm here not only

  as a mother to my children, not only as a parent, but an

  advocate for children.

                 All of us on this side of the table and on

  that side of the table, we are all parents first.  So

  it's very hard to see that our rights have been taken

  away of a P.A. or a leadership or anything else on that

  forthcoming.  The School Board are needed.  I understand

  that they need to be revamped, updated, but not taken

  away.  We need this as an avenue in order to come forth

  as a group, as a community to make sure that we have a

  say so and a right for our children.

                 What are we going to bestow to our

  children as for education?  It's not enough to have

  updated books because it's desperately needed, updated

  tools just as computers, literacy, the Internet, but we

  have to upgrade the teachers as well in order to have a

  bioduct for the children to learn.

                 We, as parents, are the first teachers of

  our children.  But we are also the last teachers of our

  children and they look at us for guidance.  It's not

  enough to say well we're going to do it this way and

  we're going to do it that way.  And we're going to make

  more rules and regulations.  And by the time we learn the

  old rules and regulations, we have news ones posed on us.

                 What is left to say that we as parents

  forgo all our rights.  You're a parent as well.  And

  you're going to stay and sit there and say, boy are we

  going to let that happen?  It's impossible.

                 We have students that are learning in the

  hallways because we don't have enough schools, because

  the Planning Systems and the Planning Boards keep

  building family homes, but they do not build schools,

  they do not build enough schools for these children to

  learn.

                 The monies that are appropriated for

  houses outweigh the money that's appropriated for

  schools.  They don't even build new schools.  They can't

  even -- they cannot update the schools that they're in

  now.  They're not quality and quality issues that

  healthwise, we need all of these issues addressed to.

  We, as parents are guardians to our children.  We have

  to, as our God given right to defend these little

  children, even if they are in high school, because they

  cannot defend themselves.

                 We have to teach them how to progress in

  life, because at the end, they're going to take care of

  us.  So we have to take care of them so they can take

  care of us.  Give them the education.  Give them the

  powers and the tools in order to make a better life for

  everyone involved.

                 We as tax payers pay for education.  But

  our children bring it back to the school system because

  they do have value.  We need as parents, as guardians,

  and I can't emphasize this enough in order to evolve as

  humans, as humanity, we have to teach our children the

  ways that we've been taught not only to be an island to

  themselves, because that's impossible to do.  Because

  they're not only part of a family, part of a community,

  but part of a nation.  And as a nation, as Americans, we

  have to give this to our children.

                 If Japan and China can educate their

  children at the age of three, starting at the age of

  three, we can do the same with our children.  It's very

  important, because education starts at the house, but it

  goes within the schools.  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Well we thank you very

  much, Ms. Gonzales.  And I think that your children and

  the children that you look after in the larger school

  community are very lucky to have you as their parent

  advocate.

                 Does anybody have any questions?  We thank

  you so very much for being here with us tonight.

                 We have four individuals who arrived this

  evening and asked at the time to testify and I will see

  if those individuals are still here.  Anna Lopez?

  Richelle Braithwaite?  Was I close?  Oh, good.  New York

  Youth At Risk, Inc.

                 MS. BRAITHWAITE:  Good evening everyone.

  Actually this is my first time ever coming to one of

  these things.  I am what's called a course leader for New

  York Youth At Risk and today I went to a patenting high

  school here in the Bronx, and the main reason why I said

  I would come is because there's a lot of talk about

  cutting the funding for those schools.  And patenting

  team moms are some of the most -- what can I say about

  them?  They really need our help.  They are very much

  like the babies that when they have them, which is of

  course ahead of time, and not being very skilled, they

  need help.  And if we cut funding and if we don't

  prepare, one of the major complaints I keep hearing in

  these patenting schools is that the way that they're

  designed, does not really serve the population that

  they're serving.

                 So I'm here basically just to let you know

  how in danger these young people are.  Because just like

  the babies that they raise, that every time they see them

  attempting to walk, they reach out their arms to them and

  say come on.  You can do it.  You can do it.  These young

  ladies are at a very, very delicate point in their lives

  where they are -- they have brought other lives onto the

  planet and they need someone to say to them, come on, you

  can do it.  Let's hold your hands and let you continue

  your education and become the person that when that baby

  looks up to, that baby wants to be like you.

                 I'm not even a parent.  I mean I don't

  really go to schools or anything.  I'm basically a hair

  dresser.  But I really have a feeling in my heart for all

  of these young people who are attempting to be students

  and the thing that I recognize, even when I was a kid and

  I'd have to say I grew up in parochial schools.  But what

  I hear young people saying is that they don't have a lot

  of faith in what they're seeing as schools and I'm

  concerned about that, because they're next.

                 They're the ones who are going to put

  their children in schools and they need to have people

  who they are looking forward to interacting with.  And I

  have no idea of how a deconstruction of community boards

  are going to reconstruct themselves.  I don't know what

  the process is.  I know this is part of the process.

                 But what I'm beginning to find myself

  interested in is basically how do we cooperate to make

  sure that the outcome of this breaking down of something

  that people have said doesn't work, how do we come

  together so that the construction of the next thing that

  happens for our children, for the parents, for the

  democracy that we say we are.  And democracy means --

  there are a lot of different people who have got to

  cooperate, even if we don't agree with one another.

                  So how do we create a working system for

  teachers, for principals, the children, the parents, the

  Board, the Chancellor especially.  I know the Chancellor

  has a very daunting job to get numbers and get these

  children's educations on par.  There is something that --

  I don't know what it is that occurs in my head when we

  talk about failing schools.  To me a failing school is

  like -- what does that mean?  What does that mean for the

  process that's happening in education.

                 Is it the students that are failing?  Are

  the teachers failing?  Are the principals failing?  Is

  the curriculum failing?  What's failing?  What is going

  on here and how can we, as citizens of this particular

  city which we have continually said is the greatest in

  the world.  I mean our crime rate is down.  We have

  everything really seeming tow work for us and yet we have

  failing schools, that fail over a long period of time.

                 And the people who they're failing are the

  people who we want to climb up in society and be our next

  group of people who are giving their all to the city,

  participating, making it a wonderful place to live,

  having wonderful lives.  So, to say that we have failing

  schools that have been failing for a long time is, I

  don't know how to wrap my mind around that.

                 Because it seems that it's allowable and

  it's okay somewhere.  And that what we fight is for not

  to make that an outmoded thing, but we fight for some

  kind of control over it.  I would rather control -- you

  know, if the deconstruction is going to give us schools

  that work, and curriculums that work and teachers and

  parents and chancellors that work together, go right

  ahead.  Please deconstruct so we can hear new words when

  we talk about our children.

                 So we can have new feeling about how this

  city is and how it places in the rest of the  world.  And

  I think it gives people who may say that they're on the

  lower edges of society, it doesn't mean that they don't

  want to move up.  And it doesn't mean that their children

  don't want to move up.  What is means is that helping

  hand out there.

                 And we're not talking about money.

  Participatory democracy means that there's something that

  you've got to learn.  You're not born knowing how to be

  democratic.  And my request is that whatever the next

  construction is for communities to participate in their

  School Board and their children's learning, in the cross

  cultural melange that happens when people come together

  who are different.  Whatever that's going to be, have it

  not entail the fact that we fail our children in their

  education, no matter where that failure comes up.

                 So I thank you very much for being here.

  For having this space and this forum for us to speak.

  And I'm going to stay interested.  Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  We

  appreciate your being here.  Thank you very much.

                 Our next speaker is Gwendolyn Primus.

  With our apologies, I understand that you were here.  We

  must have overlooked the fact that you were here.  And

  that's probably my fault.  So I apologize to you and Ms.

  Primus is the President of Community Schools Board 9, so

  it was a major oversight on my part.

                 Thank you for waiting.

                 MS. PRIMUS:  Thank you.  Good evening

  Panel and Panelists.  I thank you for coming to the Bronx

  and listening to us this evening.  First I want to start

  off by thanking many of my peers who spoke earlier today

  about continuing Community School Board in the manner

  that it should be.

                 But I got the news earlier today from my

  elected official that it would be a waste of breathe,

  that they're looking for something new.  So being the

  good leaders that we are in District 9, we always have a

  contingency plan.

                 Therefore, we are here tonight in support

  of our Borough President, Adolofo Carrion's plan, which

  constitutes parents from the ground root, not from the

  top down, but from the bottom up.  And that's what the

  Parents Association, School Leadership Teams which will

  then elect parents to a district parent council who will

  then move on and be elected to a Borough Board, which

  will consist of 21 members, 12 of them being parents, one

  being a Borough President, three of them being

  superintendents of an elementary, middle school and high

  school, and five others appointed by the Borough

  President.  And this particular board will be aligned

  with Community Planning Board, which will then -- this

  person will be selected by the Borough President and move

  onto the city board.

                 And there's no need to give you any

  testimony because Adolofo gave it this morning and I'm

  quite sure that you have it.  But in closing, I would

  just like to say to all the parents, they can't give you

  what you already possess, and that is power.

                 If you don't already acknowledge that you

  as parents have the power, you're already starting behind

  the eight ball.  And some of the rights and

  responsibility that you're sitting before the Panelists

  asking for tonight, you already have and it already

  exists.  You just need to know where it is and how to

  utilize it better.  And whatever comes out of the

  parents, whatever decisions that you make, you need to

  know that you need to fund it because then you'll have a

  mess on your hand again, like you did before 1996, before

  the new governance with Community School Board.

                 I'm one of the new Community School Boards

  who came after the governance.  Who had to really define

  our roles as Community School Boards who used it to the

  next to try to improve the quality of education of our

  kids in District 9.

                 But I have to say for the record, that it

  was allowed for so long for our schools to fail before we

  got a hold of it.  And just let me say also for the

  record that it was at that time that we decided as P.A.

  President to run for Community School Board because I did

  serve as a P.A. President elementary, junior high and

  high school, President of President's Council for six

  consecutive years in District 9 before we decided that we

  were going to take over the School Board and let me let

  you know that they did try to oust us, but we ran as

  write ins and we won.

                 MS. PRIMUS:  And this is why we kept our

  notes and stayed focus for the past seven years on

  Community School Board 9, children was first, remained

  first and we're proud of that.  And I don't know what

  Community School Board have done in the past six to seven

  years that resulted in this decision, but it really looks

  like it has been a design from 1996 to dismantle school

  board.  But I do understand because I do stay abreast of

  the decisions that our elected officials made.  And I do

  know that it was part of the negotiating factor that

  budgets would not be cut from city schools.

                 I hope you know that you were really

  bamboozled, because we are really undergoing some bad

  cuts in the district now.  People are receiving pink

  slips as we speak.  Children would not have Christmas

  because of the Governor not keeping his promise not to

  cut the budget in New York City public schools.

                 So I ask whatever decisions you make, it

  needs to be funded.  It needs not to be just in words and

  in paper, and give it to people to put in effect.  But

  you need to put the money behind it.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you very much.

  We are so appreciative that you waited for us.  Again I

  apologize for the oversight in not calling you a little

  bit earlier in the evening.  But we so much appreciate

  your advice and your counsel to us and we take it to

  heart.  Thank you.

                 Our next witness is David Francis, Member

  of Community School Board 10.  Thank you for waiting.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Thank you Members of the

  Panel for hearing my brief testimony.  I'm a Member of

  Community School Board 10.  I'm one of the newest members

  of Community School Board 10.  I was appointed in

  September.  And although I'm not a parent, I'm a

  community person in the Bronx.  I've grown up in the

  Bronx.  I went to all Community School Board 10 schools.

  I graduated from a public high school, Kennedy High

  School and graduated from a public university.

                 Unfortunately I went to a private law

  school and I'm now looking for a job.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  That will teach you.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  I joined the Community

  School Board 10 mainly because I wanted to give something

  back to the community and I thought this would be a great

  way to do it.  I  believe that education is very

  important and the community should have more involvement

  in knowing what their -- not their children but in fact

  all of their children are learning and how they're going

  about doing it in where they go to school and how they go

  to school and under what conditions they go to school in.

                 I've been a member for a couple of months.

  One of the great things I like about the School Board is

  that every one has their say.  And anyone can come up to

  a public meeting and say what they dislike or like about

  a school or a policy or anything like that.  The members

  of the Board led by the President Cordell Schachter and

  Vice President Ted Weinstein, everyone on the Board is

  very -- listens very well and we try our best to honor

  those people that come to speak to us.

                 And I'll keep my comments pretty short.

  There's three things that I would like to see, if not a

  School Board but whatever replaces a School Board

  happens.  I'd like to see more community involvement.

  I'd like to see more people come out in support of their

  schools, their public schools, even if they're not a

  parent.  Recently we had a transit strike -- recently we

  almost had a transit strike, excuse me.  And everyone was

  on the same boat and everyone tried to do a contingency

  plan.  I think that that same ideas of having contingency

  plans should be done with education.  Everyone should get

  involved and say look, our schools really need our help

  and we should all get together and try to help our

  schools out.

                 A second thing I would like to see is more

  student involvement.  It is their education.  I would

  like to hear what they have to say and hear where they

  would like to be teached, what works for them, what

  doesn't work for them.  It would be pretty hard to go

  through each grade by grade, but a brief comment by

  students that come together would be pretty helpful in

  trying to improve education.

                 And third, would probably be based on

  population.  It's been noted many times that School Board

  10 is a very big School Board and in something that

  limits the population, I don't know how that would work

  out.  Whether a 10 school limit or a population limit,

  that would really help out in terms of being able to

  pinpoint ideas and to be more responsive to everyone that

  goes to these schools.  And that's basically it and I

  hope that something that is going to replace School Board

  will have everyone able to come out and say their peace

  and all lead to the better education for our children.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you very much,

  Mr. Francis.  Let me just observe that I think Community

  School Board 10 has been very well represented here

  today.  We heard from your President, Mr. Schachter, and

  we heard from Mr. Weinstein a little earlier and during

  the morning session, Dorothea Marcus was here and I can

  understand why you are all very proud of the work that

  School Board 10 does.  You've had very, very good

  representation on the board.  And we thank you for being

  here tonight.

                 MR. FRANCIS:  Thank you very much.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  The last

  witness that we have, having signed up either previously

  today or during the day today is Neyda Franco.

                 MS. FRANCO:  Good evening.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Good evening.

                 MS. FRANCO:  I just signed up because

  after listening to some of the testimony I felt I needed

  to speak.

  One of the most important things before I go into what

  the subject and the purpose that we're here for, as you

  stated, representation.  District 10 was very well

  represented.  I'm sure, where are all the districts?

  Where is the involvement?  How many people were informed

  that these hearings were out?

                 The only reason I found out was because I

  work for a community based organization and they got an

  invitation.  But I, as a parent, did not get an

  invitation.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  I should just let you

  know that every -- as far as we know, every parent

  association in the city received a notice about ten days

  ago.  So we tried very hard to disseminate this

  information as best we could.  We're very glad that you

  found out.

                 MS. FRANCO:  PTA's and P.A.'s do not get

  all their information out.  Because if they don't get

  their meetings out, how do they get out what's happening

  in the community.  Okay?  Good?  I mean District 10, like

  I said, I see all they were here, but District 7, we're

  right here.  This is our community.  Walking distance.

  This place should have been packed with District 7

  people, and it's not.  I'm going to repeat again, because

  the communication is not there.  Representation and this

  is what happens with the parents.  We do not get the

  information.  We do not get the representation.  But I'm

  going to go back and say why we should not have community

  school boards.  I'm one of the biggest fighters.  And

  I've been on the Board.  I was appointed trustee to the

  Community School Board in District 7, and I fought to get

  the School Boards out.  Because in this district, it's

  all politics.  It's not about children's education.

                 And yes, the parents do have the power.

  We have the power of parents.  These are our children and

  we must be educated to the point where we will be able to

  make decision making policies for our children.  Not that

  there aren't some of us that have been here for a long

  time.  For instance, I've been here for 25 years in the

  education field.

                 School Boards have been used as stepping

  stones for politics.  This district they were removed and

  brought back.  In order for our children to continue or

  to start getting what's right for them, we have to have

  people that have vested interests in the education field.

  Parents have the biggest vested interest, their children.

  Their best commodity is their children.

                 So when you set up a panel or whatever is

  going to replace the School Boards it has to be parental

  involvement.  But again, it's a matter of interpretation

  of what is parental involvement.  Do you want us to bake

  cookies?  Do you want us to do bulletin boards?  Or do

  you want us to actually sit down with budgets and know

  how to calculate budgets and how to move the money around

  to help the CP plans.  That has to be taken for.

                 It's not about having people appointed or

  elected.  It's about having people that have vested

  interest. If it's not a vested interest that you don't

  have a political or job motive, it's not going to work.

  We'll continue to reinvent the wheels and you will still

  be failing.  Our children are the ones that are failing.

  It's about making sure that the children not just one,

  not just one district, it's all the children in New York

  City.  So this Panel or whatever you do, please make sure

  that the recommendation is that the parents are totally

  involved.

                 You may have a few but this appointment by

  politicians is not going to help, because there will

  always be politics in education. That is the stepping

  stones to politics, education.  That's where everybody

  starts off with these Community School Boards.  We have

  to stop that, make sure that it's about the education of

  the children and that the people that are appointed to

  this Panel, whatever you decide to do are parents or

  vested interests.

                 It could be grandmothers, Godmothers.  I

  represent everything.  I'm a grandmother.  I'm a

  Godmother.  I'm an aunt.  A cousin, I have every field.

  But you know what, I look at them all as one.  It's about

  education.  Educating our children, making the best for

  our children and anybody that's in this Panel or wherever

  they are, make sure that these people, education is their

  first priority to our children, not politics.

                 Thank you.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Thank you.  We thank

  you very much.  Just for the record I should make mention

  the fact that there were four members from Community

  School Board 7 who had pre-registered to be here and

  unfortunately they did not attend.  But they did know

  about it because they did indicate last week that they

  wanted to testify but they were unable to make it.

                 There was one additional person who came

  in.  I think she's in the back.  Debra, come on up. I

  can't quite make out your last name.

                 MS. YOUNG:  The last name is Young.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  Okay.  Debra Young,

  Vice President of the PTA from MS-142.

                 MS. YOUNG:  District 11.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  District 11.

                 MS. YOUNG:  Yes, good night.  I came to

  observe the meeting on behalf of my colleagues.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  I will have to ask you

  to make it as brief as you can.  We were supposed to be

  out of here at nine.

                 MS. YOUNG:  It's going to be quite brief.

  And after hearing my peers speak and the different

  districts that was represented, I sat down there and I'm

  twiddling and I said I need to represent my district.

  Now my peers, I'm telling you lack of communication says

  a whole lot for the parents.  Because a well informed

  parent is going to be an effective parent.  And we know

  what child or children need.  And that's where we do not

  get the respect from the school system as a parent.  They

  do not respect us as parents.

                 And when we confront them with what the

  child needs, we are questioned, instead of helping us to

  maneuver our way to better the system.  We are questioned

  about what the child needs.

                 If I come to you and I say the river is

  running straight.  But if you want it to go this way, you

  have to build a duct and then it turns.  You know you

  follow suit, because the river is not going to go this

  way, not unless it's over flooded.

                 But it's lack of communication, sir.  And

  we need the majority of parent involvement, because

  without the parents our system will never get great.  It

  will still stay.  Our children will be falling behind and

  failing behind continuously.

                 To be a super power nation, we have to

  educate our children, each and every one to that super

  power level so they can be decisive people, making

  worldwide decisions when they grow up.

                 And we are parents.  The children have to

  be involved.  Administrations have to be involved,

  teachers and parents.  We all, four sets have to be on

  the table making the decisions over what goes on in the

  Department of Education and in their school districts.

  Without that we are imbalanced.

                 That's all I have to say.  Good night.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you very much,

  Ms. Young.  And although I did mention a moment ago that

  we were supposed to be out at nine, we promised Hostos

  that we would, there is still yet one more person who I

  will ask if she can make her remarks very brief.  And

  that is Almada Tramel, from the President -- Vice

  President of the President Council for District 7.

                 MS. TRAMEL:  I'm going to make it brief.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you.

                 MS. TRAMEL:  Basically I just want to say

  that when we talk about parent involvement -- well first

  let me introduce myself.  My name is Almada Tramel.  I

  represent District 7.  I am a newly elected Vice

  President for the President Council.  I'm also PTA

  President of P.S. 29.  I wasn't planning on speaking, but

  I have to represent for my district.

                 I think that when we started talking about

  community board, we must remember we're talking about

  parent involvement.  One of the things that must be kept

  in mind is that parents need to understand their key

  role.  That is speaking and understand what they're

  speaking about.  So it's a lot of training that must come

  forth so when the community board is redeveloped, instead

  of taking away, that's what we need to look at.  Because

  I speak to my members.  I'm not afraid to say what I want

  of my community board members.

                 We have to be in touch with one another.

  We have to understand it works in a circle.  Community

  Board, which is basically about community partnership.

  Parent involvement we're talking about parent

  association.  And then we have to involve the principals

  and the staffing and everyone else.

                 But parents must first realize their role.

  We must not be afraid to speak up.  So we have to keep

  that in mind that if we are not afraid to step out, even

  if it's a little scary at first, research all the

  knowledge you have to.  It's better to seek knowledge

  than to sit back and say well whatever.  And that's what

  we need to stop doing in these communities, stop saying

  well they're just going to do what they want.

                 No, they're not.  If you don't vote, if

  you don't get involved, then nobody will hear your voice.

  So that's why sometime parents have to suffer and

  represent for a few parents or a few schools and that's

  what the community board does.  It step up and it

  represent for the parents.

                 Because sometime the parents feel that

  they don't have a voice, but they do.  But with the

  community board, that board can be parallel to other

  levels with the superintendent, within the community,

  because sometime let's face it.  People are more able to

  hear something from a community board member than they

  are from just a parent.

                 And I'm paraphrasing that just a parent,

  because sometime I think that we disillusion ourselves I

  think and parents don't know what they know.  But they

  do.  We have highly qualified educational parents that

  are out here doing a job and we do it for free.  We have

  to bear that in mind.

                 Sometime the community board might go

  array but that's because the parents didn't stay

  involved.  So when we re-enact the community board,

  parents must be there, attend all of the meetings, even

  those meetings where we don't get to speak.  And attend

  all the information and readily pass it out instead of

  just holding onto it for yourself.

                 So I want to thank you for letting me

  speak today and have a nice night.

                 CHAIRMAN SANDERS:  We thank you for being

  here with us so late.  Let me conclude by making just a

  couple of very brief observations.

                 First of all, I want to express my

  appreciation to all the Task Force members.  We have 20

  members, 19 are including Terri Thomsom by telephone were

  here during most of the day, certainly during parts of

  the day.

                 Our next public hearing will be on Staten

  Island on Monday, January the 16th and that will be

  followed -- excuse me, thank you, on Monday, January the

  6th and that will be followed by our last public hearing

  in Brooklyn on Thursday, January the 16th.  The Task

  Force expresses its appreciation to all the staff people

  who helped make this happen.  Not only the staff people

  who helped the Task Force, but the staff people from

  Hostos College who provided these very nice -- this very

  nice room for us to hold this event and this hearing and

  really did a terrific job in setting up and making sure

  that the Task Force members, as well as the community

  were so welcomed into their facility, a beautiful

  facility it is.

                 And mostly, we want to express we, the

  members of the Task Force want to express our

  appreciation to the men and women, the parents, the

  residents of the great county of the Bronx, led by your

  Borough President Adolfo Carrion.  We heard from many

  people from the Bronx today.  We listened.  I think those

  of you who were here a lot during the day know that we

  listened intently.

                 We engaged in some questions.  But we have

  been advised by you about what you feel that your

  community, your borough, our city needs in terms of

  community representation as we go forward.

                 So I want you to know that we will be very

  mindful of all that we have heard during this very long

  day today.

  We will be making our recommendations to the State

  Legislature and the Governor as the law requires on

  February the 15th.  We'll make sure that those

  recommendations are accessible to everybody.

                 I also want to thank, I know she's left,

  but I want to thank Nancy who was here as our translator

  and of course, Eddie who wishes I would stop already.

  And that seems to be a popular decision.  But thank you

  Eddie for taking down all of the wisdom that was spoken

  by the residents of the Bronx today.

                 And again, we will reconvene in Staten

  Island, on Staten Island January the 6th.  Thank you very

  much.

                 The hearing is adjourned.

                   (Time noted:  9:20 p.m.)

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

                      C E R T I F I C A T E



     I, EDWARD LETO, do hereby state that I attended at the

time and place above-mentioned and took a stenographic record

of the proceedings in the above-entitled matter, and that the

foregoing is a true and correct copy of the same and the whole

thereof, according to the best of my ability and belief.





________________________________________

     EDWARD LETO - Hearing Reporter





   Dated:  January 14, 2003

 
			

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