1

           1

           2                 TASK FORCE ON COMMUNITY SCHOOL

           3                   DISTRICT GOVERNANCE REFORM

           4                                

           5                                

           6                                

           7            Task Force on Community School District 

           8         Governance Reform Developing recommendations 

           9        regarding the powers and duties of the New York 

          10                  City community school boards

          11                                

          12                                

          13                                

          14                                

          15                 Queens Borough Hall, Room 213

          16                    120-55 Queens Boulevard

          17                        Queens, New York

          18                                

          19                  Thursday, December 12, 2002

          20                           10:25 a.m.

          21       

          22       

          23       

          24       

          25       





                                                                 2

           1

           2       MEMBERS OF THE TASK FORCE 

           3       

           4       ASSEMBLYMAN STEVE SANDERS, Co-Chair

           5       TERRI THOMSON, Co-Chairman,  

           6       ROBERT DELEON 

           7       C. BUNNY REDDINGTON 

           8       ASSEMBLYMAN ROGER GREEN 

           9       ASSEMBLYWOMAN AUDREY PHEFFER


          10       EARNEST CLAYTON

          11       ASSEMBLYMAN PETER RIVERA 

          12       GERALD LEVIN

          13       ASSEMBLYMAN JOHN LAVELLE

          14       JANE ARCE-BELLO 

          15       YANGHE HAHN

          16       CASSANDRA MULLEN 

          17       RENEE HILL 

          18       PENELOPE KREITZER 

          19       VIRGINIA KEE 

          20       KATHRYN WYLDE 

          21       ROBIN BROWN

          22       

          23       

          24       

          25       




 


                                                                 3

           1

           2                       LIST OF WITNESSES


           3                                                    PAGE

           4       COUNCILMAN JOHN LIU                            13

           5         Council Member, New York City Council

           6       KENNETH COHEN                                  36

           7         President, Northeast Queens Branch of NAACP

           8       DOROTHY WILLNER                                48

           9         Member, Community School Board 30

          10       GERTRUDE GONISH                                60

          11         Block Association President, District 29 

          12       DR. GLORIA BLACK                               70

          13         Chairperson of the Education Committee of         

          14         Assemblyman Bill Scarborough in Assembly

          15         District 29 

          16       RONNIE ROGERS                                  85

          17         Parent, Member of Assemblyman Scarborough's

          18         Task Force in District 29

          19       HELEN MARSHALL                                112

          20         Queens Borough President

          21       MARGE KOLB CORRIDAN                           152

          22         PTA President IS 73 Q

          23       LU MING LI                                    170

          24         Asian American Coalition for Education

          25         District 26





                                                                 4

           1

           2                 LIST OF WITNESSES (cont'd)

           3                                                    PAGE 

           4       REVEREND CHARLES NORRIS                       178

           5         Executive Secretary of Southeast Queens Clergy 

           6       BASIR MCHAWI                                  191

           7         Executive Member, International African

           8         Arts Festival

           9       MEG BAKER                                     217

          10         PTA President, P.S. 129 

          11       SANDRA SMITH                                  223

          12         Parent

          13       DR. DELOIS BLAKELY                            230

          14         Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. High School

          15       DEBRA JACKSON                                 238

          16         District 29 School Leadership Team  

          17       MARIA DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY                      257

          18         Co-President, PTA P.S. 2 

          19       COUNCILMAN LEROY COMRY                        269

          20       LISA BOOTH                                    286

          21         Co-President PTA of M.S. 202 

          22       NORMA PAUPAW                                  289

          23         Co-Chair, District Council of Presidents

          24       

          25       







                                                                 5

           1

           2                    LIST OF WITNESSES (cont'd)

           3                                                    PAGE 

           4       LEW SIMON                                     296

           5         Democratic District Leader, 23rd A.D.

           6       ROBERT CERMELI                                302

           7         Member, Community School Board 24

           8       SHARON MAURER                                 310

           9         President, Community School Board 26             

          10       ASSEMBLY MEMBER BARBARA CLARK                 318


          11       PATRICIA CRUZ                                 332

          12         President, President's Council, District 75

          13       MICHELLE DUDLEY                               333

          14         PTA President, District 75, P.S. 177 

          15       ERNEST BROWN                                  337

          16         Member, Community School Board 27 

          17       MS. DOLORES BEVILACQUA                        347

          18         2nd Vice President, 

          19         Community School Board 27

          20       FRANCES BRYANT                                353

          21         Community Activist 

          22       

          23       

          24       

          25       




 


                                                                 6

           1

           2                     LIST OF WITNESSES (cont'd)

           3                                                    PAGE

           4       ROWENA V. SCHWAB                              360

           5         Community School Board 27 

           6       DAVID HOOKS, JR.                              365

           7         Community School Board 27

           8       DEBRA FALCONE                                 370

           9         Parent, P.S. 146, Howard Beach

          10       DORY FIGLEOLA                                 373

          11         Vice President, I.S. 119 in Queens

          12       ASSEMBLYMAN WILLIAM SCARBOROUGH               378  

          13       NAT WASHINGTON                                386 

          14         Parent, District 29 

          15       TOM LOWENHAF                                  393

          16         Vice Chair, Community Board 3, Queens

          17       DORIS DESTOSO                                 397

          18         Vice President of P.S. 177, District 75 

          19       KAREN BLANDING                                401

          20          President, NAACP, Corona/East 

          21          Elmhurst Branch

          22       

          23       

          24       

          25       




 


                                                                 7

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   If everyone 

           3       would begin to find their seats and get ready for 

           4       what will be a long but interesting day.  Good 

           5       morning everybody.  My name is Steve Sanders.  I 

           6       am Co-Chair of this task force, The Task Force on 

           7       Community School District Governance Reform.  To 

           8       my left is Terri Thomson, a daughter of Queens 

           9       and also Co-Chair of this task force.  In a 

          10       moment we will have all of the members of the 

          11       task force who are here this morning introduce

          12       themselves.

          13                    I just want to spend a moment or two 

          14       explaining the whys and the wherefore's for this 

          15       task force and a little bit about the road map 

          16       for today's proceedings and what people can 

          17       expect over the next couple of months.

          18                    This task force was created in a law 

          19       that was passed by the State Legislature in June.  

          20       That law is, most people know I think in this 

          21       room, changed a lot of the decision making and 

          22       the powers that are exercised in the New York 

          23       City School District and the 32 community, local 

          24       community school districts as well.  That law 

          25       gave a substantial, a new authority to the Mayor 




 


                                                                 8

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       and to the Chancellor and to the District 

           3       Superintendents.  The law also did a number of 

           4       other things I won't discuss this morning, but 

           5       the law also abolishes local community school 

           6       boards as of the end of this school year on June 

           7       30th.  It doesn't abolish them, however, without 

           8       replacing the school boards with some form of 

           9       school district governance and in it's place this 

          10       task force was appointed to find a substitute for 

          11       the local community school boards. 

          12                    The task force was comprised, the 

          13       members were appointed on October the 31st.  It 

          14       is our responsibility to hold at least 5 public 

          15       hearings,  one in every borough, to make a 

          16       progress report on December 15th and then to 

          17       issue a final report with recommendations as to 

          18       how this task force, based on the public input, 

          19       how this task force believes that we ought to 

          20       proceed in having a school district 

          21       representation and what we want to do to replace 

          22       the local community school boards that will be 

          23       going out of existence.

          24                    So that is what we are doing.  We 

          25       have had two task force meetings and we had a 




 


                                                                 9

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       hearing in Manhattan on Tuesday.  This is our 

           3       second hearing.  We will be having our third 

           4       hearing in the Bronx next Thursday, followed by a 

           5       hearing on Staten Island on Monday, January the 

           6       6th and concluding with a hearing in Brooklyn on 

           7       Thursday, January the 16th.  We are very 

           8       interested to be informed by as many citizens 

           9       from around the city who wish to participate in 

          10       these hearings.  I know that in some cases, the 

          11       hearing notice was a little bit of a short 

          12       notice, but we are doing our very best to inform 

          13       as many people as we can about the activities of 

          14       this task force.  Let me now introduce again to 

          15       you the other Co-Chair of this task force, Terri 

          16       Thomson and then we will, you will have 

          17       identified for you the other members of the task

          18       force who are sitting here today. 

          19                    MS. THOMSON:   Good morning.  

          20       Welcome to Queens for those who are visiting 

          21       today.  I just want to say to everyone here that 

          22       this task force is taking this responsibility 

          23       very seriously and we see this as a very 

          24       important responsibility, determining what needs 

          25       to be put in place to assure that there's 




 


                                                                 10

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       meaningful parental and community input and 

           3       involvement in our schools that will make our 

           4       schools better.  We had a wonderful hearing on 

           5       Tuesday.  A great dialogue, a great testimony, 

           6       very thoughtful testimony and a wonderful 

           7       dialogue between our task force members and the 

           8       community and we will do the same today.  So, let 

           9       me assure you that we're here to hear your voice 

          10       and hear what you have to say and we will take 

          11       this very seriously.

          12                    Why don't we start on my far right, 

          13       Mr. DeLeon. 

          14                    MR. DELEON:   Robert DeLeon, welcome 

          15       everyone and thank you for inviting us. 

          16                    MS. REDDINGTON:   Bunny Reddington 

          17       from Staten Island. 

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   State 

          19       Assemblyman Roger Green from Brooklyn. 

          20                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN:   State Assemblywoman 

          21       Audrey Pheffer representing Queens County on this 

          22       task force. 

          23                    MR. CLAYTON:   Earnest Clayton, 

          24       President of the United Parents Association for 

          25       New York City. 




 


                                                                 11

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   Assemblyman 

           3       Peter Rivera from the Bronx. 

           4                    MR. LEVIN:   Gerald Levin, retired 

           5       CEO, AOL/Timewarner and with a family that's 

           6       committed to education in the City of New York. 

           7                    ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:   Member of the

           8       Assembly, John LaVelle from Staten Island. 

           9                    MS. ARCE-BELLO:   Jane Arce-Bello, 

          10       Community Activist from the Bronx. 

          11                    MS. HAHN:   Yanghe Hahn, Vice 

          12       President of the Korean-American Association of 

          13       Flushing. 

          14                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   And during 

          15       the course of the day, undoubtedly, there will be 

          16       a few other task force members who will be 

          17       joining us.  Some may have to leave to fulfill 

          18       other responsibilities.  Each of these hearings, 

          19       incidently, have been divided into two sessions.  

          20       A daytime session from about ten in the morning 

          21       till about four in the afternoon and then an 

          22       evening session that begins at six o'clock in the 

          23       evening.  Obviously we are attempting to adjust 

          24       the schedule so that people, especially working 

          25       men and women and parents who are looking after 




 


                                                                 12

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       their kids, will have an opportunity, a time that 

           3       will be convenient for them.  We will schedule a 

           4       short lunch break probably in the twelve thirty 

           5       vicinity so that the task force members and the 

           6       members of the audience get some sustenance and 

           7       not have to keel over and faint during the day 

           8       for lack of food.  We actually tried to work 

           9       right through on Tuesday and that just didn't 

          10       work out very well, so.  We know that there are a 

          11       lot of people.  We know there's a lot to say and 

          12       a lot to hear and we'll try to do all of that as 

          13       expeditiously and as civilly as we possibly can. 

          14                    I am going to ask people who are 

          15       testifying as we indicated on our hearing notice 

          16       to try very hard to confine their remarks to 

          17       about five minutes.  That is primarily so that we 

          18       can hear as many people as possible and also it 

          19       will give the task force members a little bit of 

          20       an opportunity to ask some questions where there 

          21       are some questions that need to be asked and 

          22       still be able to get through our schedule.  We 

          23       have a witness list.  These are people who have 

          24       signed up in advance, but we will also try our 

          25       very, very best to accommodate people who arrived 




 


                                                                 13

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       without having signed up.  But before, 

           3       beforehand, that was the case on Tuesday.  We 

           4       heard from many people, some who had not signed 

           5       up earlier in the day. 

           6                    MS. THOMSON:  I want to acknowledge 

           7       that Assemblyman Mike Generas was here earlier to 

           8       wish us well.  And we'll begin with our first 

           9       speaker Councilman John Liu. 

          10                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   Good morning 

          11       Co-Chair, Honorable Steve Sanders the Assemblyman 

          12       and Terri Thomson, one of our favorite daughters 

          13       from Queens and good morning to all of the most 

          14       distinguished members of this task force.  I'm 

          15       happy to be here this morning particularly to 

          16       warm up for Helen Marshall who you will find no 

          17       greater an advocate for public education.

          18                    I am here to talk about the 

          19       governance issue, especially with respect to our 

          20       school boards and how we can maximize parental 

          21       input, parental and community input.  But before 

          22       I talk about those issues, I want to emphasize 

          23       that I have always made to believe that 

          24       governance is important with respect to our 

          25       schools, but without the adequate resources, 




 


                                                                 14

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       there's only so much we can do with governance 

           3       and so for a city that spends on average about 

           4       nine thousand dollars per student as compared to 

           5       a state-wide average of thirteen thousand dollars 

           6       per student and even surrounding suburbs in the 

           7       New York City area spending seventeen thousand 

           8       dollars a student, we will only go so far with 

           9       governance reform if we do not provide the 

          10       adequate resources and I would remind everybody 

          11       that there is a campaign for fiscal equity that I 

          12       strongly believe in and I hope that that will, 

          13       that the outcome of that campaign and lawsuit 

          14       will ultimately come out in everybody's interest 

          15       in this state and give adequate and equitable 

          16       funding to the schools of New York City.                

          17                    I am proud to be a product of New 

          18       York City schools from Kindergarten through 12th 

          19       grade and going on to public university and more 

          20       importantly, I am proud to be a parent of someone 

          21       who will be attending public schools.  He's only 

          22       two years old now, but if you ask him what he 

          23       wants to do, he will tell you with a straight 

          24       face right away, "I want to go to school".  And 

          25       if you ask him which school, he'll tell you, 




 


                                                                 15

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       "P.S. 21 in Queens".  And, so, I think that as a 

           3       parent of a student who will be in school and 

           4       certainly when he is in school, I will be very 

           5       involved in what my local school is doing and I 

           6       think that parents do need the opportunity to 

           7       have strong input into the schools.  I think that 

           8       in the past, school boards, local school boards, 

           9       have worked well.  I think that they have been a 

          10       channel for parents to have meaningful input into 

          11       how their local schools are run, how the school 

          12       district is run and how the, even in terms of 

          13       setting curriculum issues as well as budgetary 

          14       issues, finding the right people, the best people 

          15       to run the schools as well as the district.  I 

          16       think that local school boards have worked in 

          17       many ways.

          18                    They have also provided new 

          19       Americans an opportunity to be part of the 

          20       democracy that this country is so favorable on.  

          21       I think that in the school board elections, that 

          22       is actually one, the only place in this city or 

          23       state where people who are not citizens of the 

          24       United States actually have a voting voice.  I 

          25       will remind everybody that citizenship has not 




 


                                                                 16

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       always been a requirement for a voting in this 

           3       country.  In the 1800's it was actually not part 

           4       of the requirements for voting and I think that 

           5       that is really one way that new Americans have 

           6       been allowed to participate in the democracy we 

           7       have.

           8                    What I'm here to talk about is, I 

           9       want to urge and advocate for the need to look at 

          10       this city, not in an across the board method, but 

          11       to try to look at areas of the city where things 

          12       have worked and things haven't worked.  I think 

          13       if you read all the reports that have been 

          14       published and the press that has discussed the 

          15       school boards and how they've worked over the 

          16       last ten years or so, you will read about some of 

          17       the failures where school boards have not lived 

          18       up to their promise, decentralization has not 

          19       worked as well as was hoped in the 1970's.  But, 

          20       there are also places in the city where school 

          21       boards have done a good job.  I think in Queens, 

          22       right here, we have a number of school boards 

          23       that have worked out very well from the top 

          24       ranked school district 26 in Bayside, in Bay 

          25       Terrace in Whitestone, to other well performing 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       districts like the one we have in Flushing, 

           3       District 25, District 30 in Woodside.  

           4                    Other districts, I don't mean in any 

           5       way to say that those are the only well 

           6       performing school districts.  We even have a 

           7       school district, District 24, that is by far the 

           8       most overcrowded in the city and yet, has done 

           9       well even through very contentious discussions 

          10       about what the curriculum should be.  The parents 

          11       got involved, the local elected school board 

          12       members got involved in that very heated 

          13       discussion and in the end, I think it worked out 

          14       well because people's input were reflected.  Not 

          15       everybody was happy about the outcome, 

          16       nonetheless, there was a democratic process in 

          17       what happened in District 24.  So there are 

          18       examples where school boards have worked well and 

          19       in deliberating the different options that we 

          20       have to, in terms of a system to succeed the 

          21       decentralized school board system that was done 

          22       away with this past spring, I think it, we should 

          23       look at structures that are similar to the local 

          24       school boards where in places that they did work.  

          25       They were not failures throughout the whole city.




 


                                                                 18

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    It's a big city and though it 

           3       requires more thought and more work to figure out 

           4       a system, perhaps a two prong system where one 

           5       method will work better in some parts of the city 

           6       and another method will work in another part of 

           7       the city.  I think the city is very diverse, 

           8       that's almost become a clique, but the fact is 

           9       the city behaves differently in different parts 

          10       of the area, in different parts of the boroughs 

          11       and so it does warrant thoughtful consideration 

          12       and I would advocate that in many parts of New 

          13       York particularly here in Queens.  We do have 

          14       areas that have been well served by local school 

          15       boards and a system that's somewhat similar to 

          16       the way school board members were elected by 

          17       parents, parents who didn't have to be citizens, 

          18       but simply had to have a kid in the school.  That 

          19       has worked well to represent the concerns of the 

          20       parents and the school board members have 

          21       generally been accessible. 

          22                    I have been to many of the school 

          23       board meetings in my two districts, 25 and 26, 

          24       and the parents have never feared yelling and 

          25       screaming at the school boards members during the 




 


                                                                 19

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       meetings and the school board members have always 

           3       been very conscientious in trying to address, 

           4       really sincerely addressing the concerns of the 

           5       parents.  So, that kind of structure has worked 

           6       and I caution all of us against changing a system 

           7       across the board when in fact there are areas 

           8       where the current or the old system did work and 

           9       by changing that system, while you may improve 

          10       the situations in other parts of the city, you 

          11       may actually experience a deterioration in the 

          12       places where the current system worked. 

          13                    Thank you very much and I'd be happy 

          14       if there are any questions to answer to the best 

          15       of my abilities. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          17       very much Councilman for your very thoughtful 

          18       remarks.  I think we probably have a few 

          19       questions, but I just want to acknowledge, before 

          20       I go to questions, I just want to acknowledge 

          21       that Virginia Key, a member of the task force, 

          22       has also arrived. Ms. Reddington. 

          23                    MS. REDDINGTON:   Do you have any 

          24       suggestions?  Could you tell us how you would, 

          25       how the new unit that we're to recommend would be 




 


                                                                 20

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       established?  Would it be through elections or 

           3       appointments?  What would, how do you see this 

           4       coming?

           5                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   Well, I wouldn't 

           6       pretend to be able to do the work of the task 

           7       force, so my input is to --

           8                    MS. REDDINGTON:   What would you 

           9       recommend to us?

          10                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   I would recommend 

          11       that in areas of the city where school boards 

          12       have worked, and I think if you look at the 

          13       documentation, both at the central board and 

          14       through reports in the media, as well as the work 

          15       papers and proceedings of the individual school 

          16       districts.  I think it wouldn't be impossible.  

          17       It certainly, it wouldn't even be difficult to 

          18       ascertain districts that have worked, the 

          19       districts where local school boards have been 

          20       effective and in those areas, I would advocate as 

          21       extreme a measure as continuing the local school 

          22       boards in an elected capacity.  There have been 

          23       people, including our current Mayor, who have 

          24       talked about the low participation rates in 

          25       school board elections, but there again, don't 




 


                                                                 21

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       apply that kind of principal to the entire city.

           3                    You will find that some school 

           4       boards do have much higher voting rates whereas 

           5       in other school boards you may have very, very 

           6       low voting rates.  I think that the elected 

           7       capacity of local school board members in Queens, 

           8       in many, not every single district in Queens, but 

           9       in most of the school districts in Queens, has 

          10       worked well. 

          11                    MS. REDDINGTON:   Thank you. 

          12                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   And unlike, and I 

          13       certainly don't mean to be critical of colleagues 

          14       in government, but unlike other bodies, I believe 

          15       the school boards have experienced a higher 

          16       turnover then other bodies may have. Sorry. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Let me also 

          18       recognize the arrival of Catherine Wild from the 

          19       New York City Partnership.  Thank you for being 

          20       here Catherine.   Gerry Levin. 

          21                    MR. LEVIN:   Councilman, it's not 

          22       necessarily in our purview, but I wanted to get 

          23       your perspective on the districts in Queens.  

          24       Do they represent, in your view, the adequate 

          25       geography for the differences in various parts of 




 


                                                                 22

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Queens and then maybe you could talk about, since 

           3       you represent two districts, how much diversity 

           4       is there in Queens and how do we recognize that 

           5       community diversity?

           6                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   Well there's 

           7       plenty of diversity in the people of Queens, in 

           8       the school children of Queens.  If you're talking 

           9       about the diversity on the school boards, 

          10       District 25 and 26 and a few other school boards 

          11       in Queens are very diverse and in fact, if you 

          12       look at the one, one segment of the population 

          13       that is actually about a fifth of Queens, the 

          14       Asian-American population, there aren't too many 

          15       elected Asian-Americans.  In fact, in the City, 

          16       we just have one in the Legislature.  No one in 

          17       the executive or a few in the judicial branch, 

          18       but many in the school boards, especially in 

          19       Queens. 

          20                    We have Korean-Americans, we have 

          21       Chinese-Americans, we have Bangladesh-Americans, 

          22       Indian- Americans, Filipinos who are serving on 

          23       local school boards and in fact, in those areas 

          24       the voting rate has been pretty substantial, not 

          25       approaching eighty or ninety percent, but 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       certainly much more substantial then the single 

           3       digits that may be experienced city-wide and so 

           4       there is afforded an opportunity for these new 

           5       Americans to participate in a democratic process, 

           6       but more importantly, the parents, regardless of 

           7       how new they've been in this country, if you have 

           8       a kid in school, you have a voice in a vote. 

           9                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Virginia Kee. 

          10                    MS. KEE:   Councilman John Liu, 

          11       we're truly proud of the work that you're doing 


          12       at City Council.  We thank you.  I thank you for 

          13       your recommendation to look at the school boards 

          14       that really work.  Do you think that if we had 

          15       such a board that does not have the power of the 

          16       purse to decide budget items and things like 

          17       that, we can still have the same type of track 

          18       record?

          19                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   I think the  power 

          20       of the purse, going back to our founding fathers, 

          21       is certainly one of their most legislative powers 

          22       any legislative body can have.  At the same time, 

          23       I don't think that's the only power.  I don't 

          24       think that's the only place you can have an 

          25       impact and even having a pulpit to speak from, 




 


                                                                 24

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       school board members even without the power of 

           3       the purse can have an impact on educational 

           4       policy, can have an impact in terms of how 

           5       parents and students are communicated with and I 

           6       think that should not be minimized. 

           7                    MS. KEE:   Thank you. 

           8                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 

           9       Green. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   You've 

          11       essentially said that we need to look at the best 


          12       practices in the different school boards.  One of 

          13       the things that some of us are looking at also is 

          14       the existence of the community boards, the former 

          15       community planning boards, community boards of 

          16       which you as a City Council person would have 

          17       some relationship with because I think City 

          18       Council members appoint some of the members to 

          19       these community boards.  Do you think that these 

          20       community boards might serve as the best practice 

          21       example of a new alternative for how local school 

          22       boards might be run?

          23                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   If we're not able 

          24       to stick with an elected form of school boards I 

          25       think that having the Borough President have a 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       great deal of input in the school system is a way 

           3       to go.  I have, in the past, been an advocate of 

           4       borough boards of education because I think there 

           5       are a lot of commonalities within boroughs.  Less 

           6       commonality when you go across boroughs.  Here in 

           7       Queens we have, probably the biggest issue is 

           8       overcrowding, whereas that particular issue 

           9       doesn't effect other boroughs.  Certainly not as 

          10       much as it effects us in Queens and so there are 

          11       certain common themes that really are restricted 

          12       within a borough and will span school districts 

          13       so that I think it makes sense to have the 

          14       Borough President have a very strong voice in 

          15       selecting these people.  In the absence of an 

          16       elected form of a school board or a school 

          17       commission or a parental input board or whatever 

          18       you call it.  I think the, I don't think we 

          19       should do this through the current community 

          20       boards though. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   I understand 

          22       that.  Would, I guess what I'm asking also, is 

          23       the possible role of the City Council in 

          24       appointment of members, particularly given one of 

          25       the arguments that was made about the need for 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       changing the structure of the school system was 

           3       the issue of political accountability and so, on 

           4       one hand folks argue that the Mayor should be 

           5       held accountable for the school system, but some 

           6       of us believe that in addition to the Mayor there 

           7       are two other legislative bodies or at least one 

           8       definitely legislative body that has some 

           9       responsibility which is the City Council because 

          10       you contribute to the decision about how much 

          11       money will be given to the school system.  And so 

          12       the question is, do you think it would be 

          13       appropriate to look at the City Council also 

          14       having a role in appointment of members to school 

          15       boards?

          16                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   I think there 

          17       would be a clear line of accountability and 

          18       therefore that certainly is a very viable and 

          19       preferred method, but in my opinion, less 

          20       preferred then a directly elected board, directly 

          21       elected by parents.  And let me just, and I 

          22       certainly agree with you Assemblyman Green, that 

          23       we're looking for best practices and the best 

          24       practice in one part of the city may not be the 

          25       best practice in another part of the city and so 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       I think we should look at multiple pronged 

           3       approaches that can be applied in different parts 

           4       of the city.  And let me also say, I neglected to 

           5       mention before, that the best part, in my 

           6       opinion, the best part of the change in school 

           7       governments that we have experienced this past 

           8       Spring in terms of giving the Mayor and the 

           9       Chancellor the control, but therefor, the 

          10       accountability, is that part of that agreement 

          11       was that the city would never reduce it's, the 

          12       proportion of it's city budget that is used for 

          13       schools and I think that really was the most 

          14       positive aspect of that.  I hope we can increase 

          15       the ratios, but certainly not decrease the 

          16       ratios. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 

          18       Rivera. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   Councilman, 

          20       thank you very much for your testimony and I'm 

          21       particularly interested in what you said about 

          22       having looked at what works in Queens and what 

          23       makes a successful community school board.  In 

          24       your opinion, where does diversity fit in in make 

          25       a school board successful?




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   Diversity fits, a 

           3       diverse representation on a school board is, 

           4       makes that school board more effective as it 

           5       would any other governmental body.  As an 

           6       example, in Flushing we have many new immigrants, 

           7       many new immigrants who are in need of bilingual 

           8       education and while in other parts of the city 

           9       where fewer new Americans may be arriving and 

          10       entering the schools, in Flushing we do have a 

          11       tremendous need for bilingual education.  

          12       Bilingual education happens to be one of those 

          13       things that I think is very poorly  understood.  

          14       I think that in parts of the city where there are 

          15       fewer new Americans, bilingual education is often 

          16       considered a crutch that immigrant students rely 

          17       upon, perhaps for too long, and that we should 

          18       speed up the instruction of their English 

          19       abilities whereas, in Flushing, people would 

          20       generally understand that while a four or five 

          21       year old who is entering Kindergarten may not 

          22       need bilingual education, you do have to make 

          23       some accommodation for a junior high school 

          24       student that is coming from a different country, 

          25       is very limited English proficient and therefore, 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       you certainly want to speed up the instruction in 

           3       their ability to speak and read and write in 

           4       English, but at the same time fi their not, if 

           5       their simply not able to use English as the 

           6       medium of instruction, you don't want them to 

           7       slip in the areas of Science and Math and History 

           8       either because their simply not able to use those 

           9       English text books. 

          10                    And so, that's an area where 

          11       bilingual education is sorely needed and in a 

          12       diverse district like Flushing that has many new 

          13       immigrants, new Americans, that is understood 

          14       better because the school board there is diverse.  

          15       It is representative of the local community and 

          16       that makes it different from other school boards 

          17       in the city where there is less diversity and 

          18       therefore, less of a need for issues, less of a 

          19       need to understand issues such as bilingual 

          20       education. That is just one example of, I 

          21       believe,  many.

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   In the Bronx, 

          23       we have some school boards that have been 

          24       criticized for not being diverse even though the 

          25       student body may be eighty to ninety percent 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       African-American and Latino.  Getting back to the 

           3       same question, is it essential, in your eyes, 

           4       that a school board be diverse and be truly 

           5       representative of the parents and the students 

           6       that are going there or would you say that there 

           7       are other things that are more important then the 

           8       diversity issue like an understanding of some of 

           9       the other issues that effect, understanding of 

          10       curriculum and the understanding of some of the 

          11       other issues that effect the quality of education 

          12       that goes on in our schools?

          13                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   I think 

          14       understanding the quality of education and the 

          15       effectiveness of the delivery of that educational 

          16       process to the students is a lot more importance.  

          17       That's certainly more important then the make-up 

          18       of school boards or even the whole, my opinion, 

          19       even the whole school governance question itself.  

          20       The bottom line is we're trying to effectively 

          21       educate every single kid in this city, all 1.1 

          22       million of them at a time.  I don't think that 

          23       we're looking for quotas.  I don't think that you 

          24       have to look at every single school board and 

          25       judge whether the school board is racially and 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       ethnically in proportion to the population to the 

           3       students.  I don't think that's necessary.  It's 

           4       certainly one of the measures you can look at, 

           5       but there are so many other measures.  You can 

           6       look at how the schools are performing, how many 

           7       of the schools are on the sur list, the turnover 

           8       of the principals, the turnover of the teachers.  

           9       You can look at a lot of different measures, but 

          10       that should be one of the measures you look at. 

          11                    MS. THOMSON:   Councilman, as we 

          12       grapple with what should be this new structure 

          13       that replaces community school boards, how 

          14       important do you think it is that parents be part 

          15       of that structure?

          16                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   It's very 

          17       important.  I think that parents, parents have to 

          18       retain the ability to have significant input into 

          19       their kids education.  There's been some 

          20       criticism that some parents don't care and I 

          21       don't think that's true for anybody.  I think 

          22       that we live in a different age, and I think 

          23       everybody understands this, where parents are 

          24       working longer hours, we have both parents 

          25       working or in many cases, you only have one 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       parent in the family and that person is working.  

           3       And so, they certainly have a huge stake in the 

           4       educational process of their students and they 

           5       should be.  The onus should mainly remain on the 

           6       parents, but if you cut them out of the school 

           7       system, well then, it's going to be the 

           8       responsibility of the government and even if the 

           9       parents wanted to get involved, they wouldn't 

          10       have a very strong say.  I think they have the 

          11       strongest say in an elected form, such as the 

          12       school boards, in the absence of that, something 

          13       that's a combination of appointees from the 

          14       Borough President and the City Council members or 

          15       other elected officials.  As long as the line of 


          16       accountability is clear.  I think that provides 

          17       parents with a strong and sufficient form of 

          18       input. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assembly 

          20       member Pheffer. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Thank you.  

          22       I guess along the same line as my colleague are 

          23       asking, the school board or similar to a 

          24       community board, but we've had a lot of testimony 

          25       on Tuesday about the leadership team, about 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       parent councils and maybe that should be a forum.  

           3       In your involvement through the communities, what 

           4       do you hear about the leadership team and is that 

           5       a way or the Parent's Association setting up a 

           6       parent council representative of the parents 

           7       instead of or the community school board?

           8                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   I think the school 

           9       leadership teams have been effective and I know 

          10       of some of my constituents who are running for 

          11       the school leadership team so that is an elected 

          12       process and I think that's something that we can 

          13       build upon.  I don't think that 32 school 

          14       districts as currently drawn necessarily need to 

          15       be intact.  I think that should be looked at as 

          16       well.  They haven't been looked at for a very, 

          17       very long time and communities have changed and 

          18       I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, 

          19       but I don't think, I think we're looking to think 

          20       outside the box and if the lines have to be 

          21       changed or the number of school districts within 

          22       this New York City school district have to be 

          23       changed, then so be it. 

          24                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Thank you 

          25       and by the way, good luck, he's Chair of 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Transportation for the City Council so we wish 

           3       you good luck. 

           4                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   Yes, my phone been 

           5       continually vibrating in my pocket. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. DeLeon. 

           7                    MR. DELEON:   Councilman whatever 

           8       the structure is, how would the parents enforce 

           9       whatever their views are in light of the 

          10       legislation that in effect took away the power 

          11       for the school boards to enforce anything?

          12                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   Well, there's 

          13       always a question of how much actual authority, 

          14       how much actual power any kind of body or 

          15       structure would have.  In an elected capacity, a 

          16       school board or whatever you call it, that body 

          17       would have more of a say --  In the City Council, 

          18       it worked deliberating any bills or we're going 

          19       through the budget process, if these school 

          20       elected school bodies representing parents are 

          21       able to be unified and voice certain positions on 

          22       certain positions, we would give a lot of weight 

          23       to that.  The school leadership teams, I think 

          24       they're very effective at the individual school 

          25       level, but we have, we have a couple of thousand 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       schools in this school, in this city and so the 

           3       voice there would be somewhat more diluted.  It 

           4       would be much more difficult to really reflect 

           5       the concerns of individual schools. 

           6                    MR. DELEON:   But you're saying that 

           7       an avenue would be at City Council hearings, if I 

           8       understood you?

           9                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   An avenue 

          10       currently exists at City Council hearings as well 

          11       as State Legislature hearings, but the voice from 

          12       single parents, not single parents, individual 

          13       parents, that is certainly heard.  The voice from 

          14       a unif --  The voice representing the unified 

          15       position of a school leadership would be heard as 

          16       well.  But, the school, if there was an elected 

          17       school body representing parents, if they made 

          18       their position heard in a City Council or any 

          19       other kind of legislative hearing, their voice 

          20       would be heard much more loudly.  Not to diminish 

          21       the importance of individual parents or schools, 

          22       but that's the nature, there is significance in 

          23       numbers. 

          24                    MR. DELEON:   Thank you. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well Council 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       member, we very much appreciate your testimony 

           3       this morning and I think all of us congratulate 

           4       you on your historical action a year ago and 

           5       we're expecting great things from you over the 

           6       next few days and over the next few years.  So, 

           7       thank you very, very much. 

           8                    COUNCILMAN LIU:   Thank you all very 

           9       much and thank you for your endurance in this 

          10       process. 

          11                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you. 

          12                    MS. THOMSON:   Our next speaker is 

          13       Norma PauPaw, Co-Chair of District Council of 

          14       Presidents.  She's not here.  Our next speaker 

          15       Kenneth Cohen, President of the Northeast Queens 

          16       NAACP.  I'd also like to acknowledge that Evita 

          17       Belmonte, the Queens representative for the Panel 

          18       for Education Policy is here.  Evita, wave your 

          19       hand so everyone can see you.  Thanks for joining 

          20       us. 

          21                    MR. COHEN:   Yes, good morning to 

          22       Co-Chairs, Honorable Steven Sanders and Terri 

          23       Thomson and the distinguished panel.  My name is 

          24       Ken Cohen.  I am President of the NAACP 

          25       Northeast/Queens Branch.  As an activist a parent 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       who has served on PTA's in almost every capacity 

           3       including President on the 100.11 Team, School 

           4       Leadership Team, and currently a Community School 

           5       Board member of District 25 and President of a 

           6       branch of the oldest civil rights organization 

           7       the NAACP which has a call to action plan on 

           8       education of which, I believe, the Honorable 

           9       Steve Sanders and many of the panel do have and 

          10       in fact, we will forward copies to this 

          11       distinguished panel.

          12                    I come to speak on the governance of 

          13       our school system here in New York City District 

          14       One.  I will state from the beginning the need 

          15       for some group to support, represent and advocate 

          16       for all children, parents and communities is 

          17       necessary.  Through the years, we have 

          18       experienced some benefits of community school 

          19       boards and experienced many reasons for drastic 

          20       change.  Never should we have no representation 

          21       from outside the realm of government or the 

          22       educational system.  As you know, the NAACP has a 

          23       long standing history and has maintained a 

          24       commitment to the successful and completion of a 

          25       quality education for all students throughout 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       this city and the nation and in particular to 

           3       those schools that are failing.

           4                    To this extent, the New York State 

           5       Conference of NAACP branches has developed and 

           6       adopted, and adopt a school program which has met 

           7       with success in some districts right here in New 

           8       York City and across the state.  However, there 

           9       are those skeptics who have mistaken the idea of 

          10       partnership in trying to solve a problem as a 

          11       desire to take over.  I do believe that this task 

          12       force should consider developing a format 

          13       inclusive of youth, parents, community and 

          14       business representatives that would reflect and 

          15       give input on curriculum, funding and mediate on 

          16       issues pertaining to the schools within the 

          17       jurisdiction while meeting with Superintendents 

          18       on a monthly basis for periodic updates.

          19                    In the youth category, young people 

          20       from High Schools or the CUNY system, selected by 

          21       their peers as they do in local school, or in 

          22       their school government which would add fresh 

          23       views to needed education as well as providing 

          24       valuable experience towards the indoctrination of 

          25       their leadership skills.




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    Parents would be selected by a 

           3       district's PTA's and President's Councils or by 

           4       demonstration of an outstanding educational 

           5       involvement. Community representation should come 

           6       from active organizations that have demonstrated 

           7       a history of involvement in education, be it in 

           8       the day program or through after-school 

           9       involvement.  The business would be the most 

          10       difficult though, but by developing a program 

          11       similar to SCOR, we are sure their knowledge 

          12       could be used with these bodies serving for a 

          13       period of one year.

          14                    The time for reform is evident and 

          15       necessary for the productive future of education 

          16       in New York City.  Accountability is the key to 

          17       success of those young people that one day will 

          18       fill this room in the future as we do today. No 

          19       matter which direction this task force should 

          20       take, the road to educational success must be one 

          21       actively considering the inclusive involvement of 

          22       youth, parents, community and business which will 

          23       facilitate true accountability. 

          24                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, 

          25       Mr. Cohen I just want to say at the outset to how 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       much we appreciate the fact that you are here.  

           3       We are all mindful of the very involved and 

           4       effective track record of the NAACP for so many 

           5       years, 50 years ago almost, was a Brown v. Board 

           6       of Education and another very distinguished 

           7       representative by the name of Thurgood Marshall 

           8       led the charge to make a public schools a better 

           9       place for all children, so we are absolutely 

          10       delighted to have your presence here and your 

          11       testimony and I suspect that maybe a question or 

          12       two.  Mr. Levin. 

          13                    MR. LEVIN:   Thank you Chairman 

          14       Sanders and I support the remarks you made about 

          15       the NAACP.  If I could ask you and appreciate 

          16       your testimony, you referred to community 

          17       involvement, but with respect to the business 

          18       community that that might be more difficult and 

          19       I'd like you to at least expand on that and 

          20       indeed, your own history with the NAACP with 

          21       getting business involved because some of us 

          22       believe that that may be very important going 

          23       forward. 

          24                    MR. COHEN:   Well, I will relate to 

          25       my past seven years as a community school board 




 


                                                                 41

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       member in District 25 where I don't really see 

           3       the immediate involvement from business.  At 

           4       public hearings where the business doesn't 

           5       provide input and yet, they reap the benefits of 

           6       those parents and children that go into the 

           7       different stores, be it clothing stores, food 

           8       stores and I believe they are an essential part.  

           9       Not only that, they have the experience of 

          10       dealing with cash, cash that is so needed in 

          11       individual schools and I'm not talking about the 

          12       donations that come through, the hard work of our 

          13       parents, through the different funding processes, 

          14       I'm talking about the kind of money that provides 

          15       the books and the other pieces of education that 

          16       aren't being provided in the system currently 

          17       today. 

          18                    MR. LEVIN:   To the extent that 

          19       every business leader is also a parent, I hope, 

          20       there may be some way of getting that kind of 

          21       activity because I agree with you there is much 


          22       to contribute. 

          23                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Ms. Kee. 

          24                    MS. KEE:   You mentioned a program, 

          25       SCOR, could you explain what that program is?




 


                                                                 42

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    MR. COHEN:   Well, there are several 

           3       programs including one in Borough Hall here and I 

           4       believe the Office for Queens SCOR is right here 

           5       in Borough Hall.  These are retired executives 

           6       that lend their expertise to young people 

           7       starting out or even just new people starting out 

           8       in business and they also, in some cases, lend 

           9       their expertise to non- profit organizations.  

          10       This could be something that is much needed if 

          11       we're looking at, and I am very much in favor of 

          12       parental involvement, as we look for them to 

          13       manage financially in the budget system.  The 

          14       school boards have not been a part of voting on 

          15       the budget system for the past six years, as of 

          16       the first change in the governance.  So, 

          17       therefore, this would be something new that we're

          18       reintroducing to parents and could use, in some 

          19       cases, assistance and as Mr. Levin said, there 

          20       are parents of all walks of life in public 

          21       schools and that's why parents are very important 

          22       to this system. 

          23                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

          24                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes, I want to thank 

          25       you for coming here today and there were a few 




 


                                                                 43

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       things you said that were very especially 

           3       appreciative of my organization, the United 

           4       Parent Association, because we do feel that 

           5       parents are a crucial part of the system and they 

           6       should have a huge stake in the saying so of the 

           7       direction of their children.  Now in your 

           8       testimony, you also ring a theme that we heard a 

           9       lot Tuesday, that you feel that this new body 

          10       should have responsibility of curriculum and 

          11       budget, I read that somewhere, curriculum and 

          12       budget and you also said that you feel students 

          13       should also have a say and you even went as far 

          14       as to say students, for instance, like in the 

          15       CUNY system, so that brings me to higher ed.  Do 

          16       you think that these new bodies, that possibly 

          17       will be created, governing bodies, should have a 

          18       connection to higher education, do you think 

          19       there should be a bridge there?

          20                    MR. COHEN:   I think from the first 

          21       day a child steps in school there should be a 

          22       constant link to education.  We're never to old 

          23       to learn.  I do believe that our whole life span 


          24       is based on a learning process, therefore we 

          25       should constantly have our children experienced 




 


                                                                 44

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       in interaction with all facets of education be it 

           3       from the pre- school age through to the graduate 

           4       age where young people, as I was, sort of given a 

           5       momentum, a lust for education.  I think it's 

           6       very important that young people interact.  The 

           7       NAACP, through their youth councils, provide such 

           8       an activity and I'm quite sure there are other 

           9       organizations that do the same.  We need, as in 

          10       our public schools, in our public system, 

          11       constantly encourage to develop our new leaders 

          12       because, as I said, I don't want to be wheeled up 

          13       to this podium 20 years from now when I think a 

          14       young person can forcefully deliver the message. 

          15                    MS. THOMSON:   Mr. Cohen, you come 

          16       to us with a wealth of experience as a parent, as 

          17       a member of a school leadership team, as a 

          18       current school board member and certainly as 

          19       President of the local chapter of the NAACP.  

          20       You're suggesting a different model.  You're 

          21       suggesting a model that is inclusive of the 

          22       community of the young people, of the parents and 

          23       of the business community.  What would be the 

          24       responsibilities of this group that are different 

          25       or the same then your role as a community school 





 


                                                                 45

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       board member?

           3                    MR. COHEN:   Well, as I said, there 

           4       are several things that were removed in the 

           5       1996/97 governance process.  I think those pieces 

           6       should be brought back to the table for those 

           7       this new body.  I also believe that because of 

           8       the community and the diversity, I bring that 

           9       word back into the picture, of New York City that 

          10       these groups should only serve for one year.  

          11       You're adding a rotation to the process.  I think 

          12       the three year process is a little bit too long, 

          13       (extensus), and I do believe that we constantly 

          14       need a fresh turnover of people, thoughts and 

          15       ideas.  So, therefore it is a must that we 

          16       introduce something new to the idea of revamping 

          17       a much needed education system. 


          18                    MS. THOMSON:   Okay. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Green.  

          20       Assemblyman Green. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   Yes, I'm glad 

          22       to see you here as well.  The NAACP, it's history 

          23       is really rooted in two major causes.  One was 

          24       the plight to end segregated and to enhance 

          25       educational opportunity and the other the fight 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       for the right to vote.  What would be your 

           3       response to a new governance model that 

           4       essentially would not enable or empower citizens 

           5       to vote for elected members to school boards or 

           6       some body, some local governance body?

           7                    MR. COHEN:   In the testimony I do 

           8       state that we would consider a voting process 

           9       through the different categories.  I would, not 

          10       wanting to give up the voting process because 

          11       everybody has the right to vote, but there are 

          12       also those individuals not involved in the 

          13       process that wind up in the voting system for the 

          14       current community school board process which 

          15       involves and develops into a political being 

          16       which takes away from the education process 

          17       which, in my own personal feeling, has destroyed 

          18       some of the true meaning of what community 

          19       schools boards were meant in 1972 through that 

          20       long battle to get to this decentralization 

          21       process. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   So what you're 

          23       saying is a wiser approach should be developed 

          24       with respect to how elections might be run to 

          25       ensure that the right people are on these boards. 




 


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           2                    MR. COHEN:   Most definitely, that 

           3       we do have people that are currently active and 

           4       involved and it doesn't mean there's an age 

           5       barrier because those people that are sincere to 

           6       quality education, whether they're very young or 

           7       very old and we have some very young intelligent 

           8       shining stars that are on the horizon, that are 

           9       still participating in public high school that 

          10       are very worthy to sit on any panel and have 

          11       discussion and we have some brilliant seniors 

          12       with the experience that would educate even this 

          13       panel and myself that would be worthy also.  So, 

          14       therefore, you're opening a door of total 

          15       involvement on all levels by adding in from youth 

          16       to community and the business community. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, 

          18       Mr. Cohen, we thank you so much for being here 

          19       this morning and congratulate you on your very 

          20       distinguished career both in education and civil 

          21       rights.  Thank you so much. 

          22                    MS. THOMSON:   Did Norma PauPaw 

          23       arrive?  No. How about Mattie Cruz?  No.  Dorothy 

          24       Willner, Secretary, Community School Board 30. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I have an 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       announcement to make.  There is a gray colored 

           3       Jeep, a four by four, parked in front of Borough 

           4       Hall.  If anyone is the owner of that vehicle, 

           5       the message is, "Move the car as soon as 

           6       possible". Okay. 

           7                    MS. THOMSON:   Good morning. 

           8                    MS. WILLNER:   Good morning.  My 

           9       name is Dorothy Willner.  Thank you for coming to 

          10       Queens to hear our concerns and suggestions for a 

          11       new governing structure for our community's 

          12       schools.

          13                    As a member of Community School 

          14       board 20 since 1983, I have spent these 20 years 

          15       since my retirement from teaching in District 20 

          16       schools taking an active role in the governance 

          17       of our district's 31 schools.  Having been a 

          18       member of the New York Coalition for Educational 

          19       Reform, as well as a member of the citywide 

          20       monitoring task force on Special Education, 

          21       having represented my school board at Central's 

          22       Consultative Council for most of these years, and 

          23       as the Co-Chair currently of the Education 

          24       Committee of the Women's City Club of New York, I 

          25       have devoted much of my adult life to the field 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       of education, and specifically, to the community 

           3       of Western Queens in which I have lived and 

           4       worked for more than 50 years.  My opinions are 

           5       therefor colored by my experiences in this area.

           6                    Because the very existence of school 

           7       districts appears to be in doubt, and because the 

           8       air is rife with speculation that the school 

           9       system may be restructured in way that we have no 

          10       knowledge of, I think it may be premature to 

          11       postulate a governance before we know what the 

          12       system itself will look like.  However, I do 

          13       offer some thoughts on this matter that I hope 

          14       you will consider when you formulate your

          15       recommendations to the State Legislature.

          16                    I believe there should be some body 

          17       of residents of a district, or region, or area, 

          18       that will have oversight of the educational 

          19       system of that area.  Much like the newly created 

          20       Panel on Educational Policy which replaced the 

          21       former citywide Board of Education, these bodies 

          22       should be composed of people who have an interest 

          23       in education and are willing to devote time to 

          24       monitoring the schools.  Whether they are 

          25       appointed, or recommended by that area's




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Superintendent, much as the May appoints the 

           3       Chancellor, who appoints the Superintendent, who 

           4       appoints the Principals, or are elected, as the 

           5       school boards have been since 1970, is not a 

           6       major issue.  I believe these panels should have 

           7       specific functions, be trained on how to work in 

           8       a group, and be familiar with the population of 

           9       their community and the culture of that 

          10       community's schools.

          11                    I differ with the people who are 

          12       recommending that parent leadership teams take on 

          13       this role for a variety of reasons.  This is not 

          14       to deny parents the right to participate in these 

          15       bodies, but only to assure that parenthood in and 

          16       of itself not be the determining factor of who 

          17       may be a member.

          18                    District 30 is an excellent district 

          19       which initiated school leadership teams when they 

          20       were first proposed more than six years ago.  

          21       Currently, each of our 31 schools has a school 


          22       leadership team, fifty percent of whose 

          23       membership are parents.  As the district with the 

          24       largest number of immigrants in the country (one 

          25       quarter of our children live in households where 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       the native language is not English), where some 

           3       of our schools have children speaking forty 

           4       different languages, and where a majority of 

           5       mothers, especially those in single parent 

           6       families are working full- time, it has been an 

           7       ongoing struggle for many parents to participate 

           8       in the work that is required of functioning 

           9       teams. Despite the fact that training has been 

          10       offered to these teams, and that we have had more 

          11       years of experience with teams than many other 

          12       districts, their mission of monitoring the 

          13       implementation of their school's comprehensive 

          14       education plan and of signing off on how their 

          15       school's budget is allocated is still as much as 

          16       any can manage.

          17                    Philosophically, too, I believe that 

          18       the education of our children is the concern not 

          19       only of parents, but of the whole community.  

          20       Where schools fail, the community fails, and 

          21       where schools succeed, the community succeeds.  

          22       As the chairperson of my district's zoning 

          23       committee and a member of its advisory 

          24       committees, I have found that decisions based on 

          25       equity for all the schools are more easily 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       arrived at by members who are impartial and do no 

           3       have a vested interest in one school but are 

           4       committed to the success of all schools.  

           5       Preventing special education classes from being 

           6       assigned to a school when there is space for them 

           7       or attempting to keep gifted students from 

           8       leaving a school for the gifted academy when 

           9       schools are unfortunately fudged entirely on the 

          10       scores achieved on standardized tests is not a 

          11       temptation for the disinterested community 

          12       member.

          13                    Whatever the governance, whoever 

          14       participates in policy decisions, monitoring, and 

          15       oversight of the schools, must receive 

          16       appropriate training for their tasks.  Their 

          17       functions must be clearly defined and the 

          18       parameters of their responsibilities clearly 

          19       understood.  The perks and the salaries that are 

          20       not given to the Panel on Educational Policy 

          21       which were given to the former members of the 

          22       Board of Education should also be denied to 

          23       members of the district panels.  Those 

          24       perspective members who have the knowledge, time 

          25       and willingness to serve should be public 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       servants whose only incentive should be the 

           3       satisfaction of knowing that they will be helping 

           4       schools achieve their mission.

           5                    A final recommendation for a 

           6       function these governing bodies should undertake, 

           7       I believe, is to act as a two-way funnel of 

           8       information from the community to the educational 

           9       establishment and from the educational 

          10       establishment to the schools.  As the editor of 

          11       my cooperative housing development's newsletter, 

          12       I write a regular report on what our schools are 

          13       doing which is carefully read by the 730 

          14       shareholders, I speak before our senior group, 

          15       many of whom are retired educators, and give a 

          16       yearly talk to our nursery school's parents who 

          17       look for guidance on choosing which school to 

          18       enroll their five year olds at the semester's 

          19       end.  Other members of my school board are 

          20       liaisons to our local precinct advisory boards 

          21       and community planning boards.  These are the 

          22       services they and I will miss performing when our 

          23       term ends next June, but which can and should be 

          24       picked up by members of the new group.

          25                    I wish you well in your difficult 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       task of organizing the many different suggestions 

           3       that have come before you into a coherent body of 

           4       recommendations and again thank you for 

           5       undertaking this job. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   And we thank 

           7       you for your testimony Ms. Willner.  Let me just 

           8       make mention the fact that to your right, several 

           9       more members of the task force have arrived.  

          10       Mr. Jack Friedman and Ms. Cassandra Mullen have 

          11       both arrived.  Mr. Levin. 

          12                    MR. LEVIN:   Thank you Ms. Willner.  

          13       It's always a pleasure to hear such an articulate 

          14       presentation.  Your journalistic credentials are 

          15       probably equal to your teaching credentials.  

          16       Since you have so much institutional experience 

          17       and you made reference to why you thought parents 

          18       should be understood in composing this new body, 

          19       could you define for us what you think the ideal 

          20       characteristics would be of the kinds of 

          21       individuals who should serve on the new structure 

          22       that we're empowered to design?

          23                    MS. WILLNER:   You know, this may 

          24       sound stupid, integrity has to come first and 

          25       having worked for 20 years on a school board with 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       people who did and did not have integrity having 

           3       been a person who almost single handedly got a 

           4       district superintendent thrown out because of his 

           5       corruption, I can tell you that, for me, 

           6       integrity is the most important.  As I said to 

           7       our current Superintendent, who has been there 

           8       for the past 15 years and is a wonderful 

           9       Superintendent, I said what you don't know you 

          10       can learn.  You know a lot now already, but 

          11       nobody can teach you to be honest. Are you 

          12       honest?  And, of course, he said I am honest and 

          13       you can believe that.  So, that would be the 

          14       primary thing.  If you have a background in 

          15       education, that's great, but I have known people 

          16       who were on our school board who were principals 

          17       who were dishonest, so it's not who you are, 

          18       rather, you know what I mean, it's a character. 

          19                    MR. LEVIN:   So, let's focus in on 

          20       parents because a lot of our discussion is try to 

          21       encourage parental involvement.  So, what kind of 

          22       parent would be an ideal candidate to be on this 

          23       new board?

          24                    MS. WILLNER:   I think a parent that 

          25       shows a commitment to helping her own child and 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       other people's children.  Parents, I have been 

           3       involved recently in a study of charter schools 

           4       which some of you may have received from the 

           5       Women's City Club, and one of the things that we 

           6       found in charter schools was that the parents who 

           7       send their children to charter schools had a 

           8       commitment to look for the best school for their 

           9       child.  So, I would look for a parent who want's 

          10       the best and who is willing to go out and search 

          11       for the best and if she or he doesn't find the 

          12       best, to work in his or her own community to make 

          13       a school into a better school and we have such 

          14       parents in District 30.  There are not many of 

          15       them because many of them, most of them are so 

          16       involved with the issues of daily life.  As a 


          17       district with an enormous number of single parent 

          18       families who are working full time, many of them 

          19       have enough to put bread on the table and to see 

          20       that their own little child is being taken care 

          21       of.  So, it should be a parent that has the 

          22       willingness, the ability and the time to serve.  

          23       You've got to have the time. 

          24                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 

          25       Rivera. 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   Thank you also 

           3       Ms. Willner.  I have a question on what role 

           4       should local business people play on a 

           5       reconstituted school board?  Should it be just 

           6       limited to parents or should there be a search 

           7       for parents and other kinds of individuals to 

           8       serve on a school board?

           9                    MS. WILLNER:   I think there should 

          10       be a search for anybody willing to devote himself 

          11       to this task.  One of the things that we found 

          12       wonderfully effective was what Pencil initiated a 

          13       couple of years ago and that is the principal in 

          14       a school and once you get one of these people to 

          15       come into a school, they have done enormous 

          16       things.  They have painted murals, they have 

          17       brought in money, they have given grants, they 

          18       have given resources, so once you form some kind 

          19       of connection with any one of these organizations 

          20       they will do marvelous things and I would not 

          21       hold back any group from running for an elective 

          22       office if it is elective or from serving as a 

          23       volunteer.  We have Citicorp in Long Island City 

          24       that for years has been sending mentors to a 

          25       school that serves the largest low-income housing 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       project in the entire country.  That's the 

           3       Queensbridge houses and Citicorp has been taking 

           4       a group of children every week for years, 

           5       bringing them to the big Citicorp building in 

           6       Long Island City and working with these children 

           7       and with their parents. 

           8                    We have Mr. Friedman who started the 

           9       I Have A Dream for the children in the Long 

          10       Island City area.  To our great dismay, when I 

          11       learned a majority of those children and their 

          12       parents have opted out from this marvelous 

          13       program after a couple of years, I was 

          14       devastated.  Our Deputy Superintendent, 

          15       Dr. Phillip Composto, right here, was the 

          16       Principal of the school that the I Have A Dream 

          17       children were working in.  So, anybody who is 

          18       willing to give, we want you and we'll help you 

          19       if and you'll help us. 

          20                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

          21                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes, thank you for 

          22       coming here today and giving us your testimony.  

          23       I'd just like to jump back on the parent aspect 

          24       of this.  Last year when the task force was 

          25       studying the governance through the Mayoral 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       control and one of the issues was that we wanted 

           3       parents to have a meaningful role and what did 

           4       not happen was we did not set a parameter or any 

           5       sort of criteria of what type of parent that 

           6       should be and so in the spirit we were thinking 

           7       like you said that they should be committed and 

           8       they should have children in the system and this 

           9       was just all in the spirit.  But as it turned out 

          10       when the five parents were finally selected there 


          11       was some disagreements across the city on some of 

          12       the Borough President selection.  They felt it 

          13       was not in the spirit of what the board really 

          14       wanted.  So now, with that said, with this new 

          15       governance structure that we're trying to see how 

          16       it would look and you were saying that parents 

          17       should be committed, should have children in the 

          18       system, would let's say a parent who served for X 

          19       amount of years on their Executive Council, would 

          20       that be a candidate, sort of a candidate you 

          21       would be talking about for a role on this new 

          22       governance body?

          23                    MS. WILLNER:   Yes, yes.  Why not.  

          24       When I was on the Executive Board, years ago, of 

          25       my children's public schools, most of the parents 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       at that time were not working and were very 

           3       involved in being in the schools all the time.  

           4       Now, you know, we have the C-30 process where the 

           5       parents are involved in helping to choose the 

           6       supervisors.  It is very difficult to get five 

           7       parents to be on these boards.  Why?  Because 

           8       they're busy working and taking care of their 

           9       families.  That's the reality. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, 

          11       Ms. Willner, we thank you so much for joining us 

          12       this morning.  We appreciate the work that you've 

          13       done for so many years on the Local Board 30 and 

          14       of course your work with the New York City 

          15       Women's Club is very well-known to all of us.  We 

          16       thank you for your advocacy. 

          17                    MS. THOMSON:   I don't believe I see 

          18       Reverend Norris here yet.  Has Norma PauPaw or 

          19       Mattie Cruz arrived yet?  No.  Debra Falcone?  

          20       No.  Marge Coridan I don't see.  Gertrude Gonish, 

          21       Block Association President (inaudible). We can 

          22       xerox them for you. 

          23                    MS. GONISH:   Good morning 

          24       distinguished panel.  I am going to present it 

          25       from the grass roots.  I used to live in 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       community school board 30 and I moved over to 

           3       community school board 29.  My name is Gertrude 

           4       Gonish, for the record, President of the Nemmis 

           5       Street, National Boulevard, Montauk Street Block 

           6       Association and a very active community person.  

           7       I've heard the word parent.  A parent doesn't 

           8       mean that you gave birth because in my 

           9       neighborhood I have about 20 to 30 children and 

          10       they look upon me as a mother because I give them 

          11       guidance.

          12                    My concern today is the voting 

          13       aspect of this because I am in a troubled 

          14       District 29 and many of you are familiar with it.  

          15       I look at the voting because too many of my 

          16       people died for the right to vote and I am 

          17       concerned from the aspect that when I moved into 

          18       District 29 many of my older people would take me 

          19       by the hand and say, "C'mon, let's go", taught me 

          20       how to be active in my community.  And the only 

          21       reason why I'm speaking, I'm not reading from the 

          22       paper because I heard many of the things that 

          23       were said by some of my former speakers.  

          24       Activity, the school boards and the voting.

          25                    Now if you take this away from us 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       what are we going to have in it's place?  I 

           3       remember in District 29, we couldn't even get 

           4       anything from the Board of Education because 

           5       there was no one to represent us.  We walked, we 

           6       marched, we did everything until we had some 

           7       representation.  I'm not saying every school 

           8       board is functional.  But I'm saying the one's 

           9       that are working and on this paper I have quite 

          10       about, how many, about four or five suggestions 

          11       for the non- functional boards.  We really and 

          12       truly need our rights back to vote because if you 

          13       take this away from us, what about the general 

          14       election voting?  What about the other voting?  

          15       And we need to clean up our district, so please, 

          16       and I'm going to read.

          17                    The civil rights of the people 

          18       within New York City are being violated by the 

          19       powers that be.  I cannot speak for those that 


          20       have a different hue then me, but I do know that 

          21       they have always had and still have privileges 

          22       that I cannot enjoy.  President Bush is preaching 

          23       to the people abroad of these United States about 

          24       the cruel and inhumane living conditions they 

          25       endure in other parts of the world.  If this is a 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       democratic society and we have been given the 

           3       right to vote for the people we want to represent 

           4       us, why do we illegally do with the sch --  Why 

           5       do you want to do illegally do so with the school 

           6       boards of New York City.  We all know that many 

           7       of the school boards do not function properly.  

           8       What have the powers to be done to correct it?                 

           9                    Hundreds of years ago many people 

          10       died who were beaten, named, just so I could have 

          11       this opportunity to voice my opinion for my 

          12       choice to represent me.  Let us not return to the 

          13       era where only certain members of society could 

          14       vote or voice their likes or dislikes or 

          15       important issues. If you really are serious about 

          16       improving this school boards performances try 

          17       these suggestions. 

          18                    Number one:  Survey all of the 

          19       successes of the functioning school boards; 

          20                    Number two:  Compare the 

          21       relationships between the Superintendents and the 

          22       school boards; 

          23                    Number three:  Do not allow working 

          24       individuals in political office to run and serve 

          25       on local school boards; Have successful school 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       district boards work with the dysfunctional 

           3       school boards; 

           4                    Number five:  Have the voting of the 

           5       school board members during the election time of 

           6       minor offices voting; If the local school boards 

           7       do not improve, have a special team work with 

           8       them until they know how to function as a unit;                  

           9       School boards were created to give each 

          10       member of the community their say of who should 

          11       represent them, so their offsprings would obtain 

          12       a decent education.  We forgot a long and 

          13       difficult battle to achieve this right.  Please 

          14       do not cheat us of this right and as some of them 

          15       have stated that the younger people being 

          16       involved in the school boards.  I learned how to 

          17       become an activist at a young age because 


          18       somebody took me by the hand and taught me and if 

          19       we do this to the younger generation I can assure 

          20       you success. Thank you. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Ms. Gonish, 

          22       we thank you very much for being here and as a 

          23       President of your Block Association, I think I 

          24       envy the people who live on your block. I can see 

          25       why they consider you their leader, you're 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       remarks were both passionate and very well 

           3       delivered.  Do we have any questions?  Ms. Kee. 

           4                    MS. KEE:   Ms. Gonish, thank you so 

           5       much for your passion and your caring about 

           6       school boards.  We really do appreciate it.  Do 

           7       you assess, as we do, minority people in trying 

           8       to get people out to vote that there is a 

           9       difference in today's climate of 1960 versus 2002 

          10       that the whether it's better now or less so?

          11                    MS. GONISH:   Today, trust me, it is 

          12       so difficult.  With me, I don't think, no see, 

          13       I'm older then some of the people in this room 

          14       but we did not pass something down to them.  We 

          15       did not take them by the hand the way the older 

          16       generation took me by the hand and it's like 

          17       pulling a good tooth out of your head to get them 

          18       out.  They have every excuse in the world why 

          19       they cannot attend, but the faithful one's that 

          20       come, they work.  So it is difficult today. 

          21                    MS. KEE:   Thank you. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

          23                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes, thank you for 

          24       your passion as well.  My mother always taught me 

          25       to respect and always remember what the rights 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       that people have fought for and died for and one 

           3       of my objectives, being on this task force, is to 

           4       try to make sure that our rights are not 

           5       infringed upon and I just want to assure you that 

           6       also the Justice Department has a hand in this so 

           7       whatever comes out of this, they have to also 

           8       make sure that the people's rights, voting 

           9       rights, isn't infringed on.  So, you could rest 

          10       assured that we don't want to move backwards, 

          11       that is totally for sure.  We want to move 


          12       forward in a more progressive and a governing 

          13       body that will work and I'm sure we will look at 

          14       those school districts that are functioning well 

          15       and try to distract or take from whatever they 

          16       have that we can put into some sort of new 

          17       governing body.  But I just wanted to assure you, 

          18       as far as the voting rights, that it is being 

          19       reviewed and any recommendation will be reviewed 

          20       just for that purpose.

          21                    MS. GONISH:   Thank you. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. DeLeon. 

          23                    MR. DELEON:   Ms. Gonish, thank you 

          24       for being here.  I was very moved by what I heard 

          25       you say.  In terms of functioning school boards 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       helping dysfunctioning school boards, am I 

           3       hearing you say that there should be money 

           4       appropriated for that?

           5                    MS. GONISH:   No.  You don't need 

           6       money to help each other because we in District 

           7       29, see I'm going to be honest, anybody in here 

           8       who knows me, I get into trouble for honesty.  We 

           9       in District 29, no leadership team working, we 

          10       don't have a curriculum, we don't have a budget, 

          11       we don't have a lot of things in District 29 and, 

          12       trust me when I tell you, every week the Mayor 

          13       and the Chancellor they get a letter from me and 

          14       if the school board is working, what is your 

          15       success?  You know the word sharing?  Help us.  

          16       We learn from each other.  And this is what we 

          17       need to do.  Stop being selfish.  Forget the name 

          18       that is attached to you.  Help me and in helping 

          19       me I can help others and make my community more 

          20       liveable and attractive and my house that I own, 

          21       to be of good value on the market.  That's what 

          22       we're looking for. 

          23                    MR. DELEON:   Thank you very much. 

          24                    MS. GONISH:   Your welcome. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblywoman 




 


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           2       Pheffer.

           3                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Thank you.  

           4       Some of the comments have been that the school 

           5       boards are not representative of the students 

           6       going to school and the system we have now, of 

           7       the way we're voting and everything, I mean, do 

           8       you have any thoughts about that.  Is it 

           9       representative of the students attending, do you 

          10       feel that there should --  I don't want to say 

          11       quotas, but should it be in some way that through 

          12       appointment or through election, some way in 

          13       making sure it's, the community school boards is 

          14       distributed throughout the community as far as 

          15       representation?

          16                    MS. GONISH:   I think the community 

          17       school board members should be a representation 

          18       of the community.  I have heard the first speaker 

          19       spoke about the number of immigrants or different 

          20       people.  He needs to come to Southeast Queens.  

          21       We are much richer then he is and they have no 


          22       representation.  So I really and truly think that 

          23       it should represent the population.  This is 

          24       what, this is only my opinion.  Okay?  Yes. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Thank you. 




 


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           2                    MS. GONISH:   Your welcome. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, I want 

           4       to thank you very much for being here and Terri 

           5       Thomson still has a comment.  Let me thank you 

           6       again. 

           7                    MS. GONISH:   Your welcome, thank 

           8       you.

           9                    MS. THOMSON:   Ms. Gonish, nope, 

          10       don't sit down.  Thank you for coming and thank 

          11       you for your voice on education and for your 

          12       passion for your district and I for one have been 

          13       one of the people in your sights who have 

          14       received correspondence from you for a lot of 

          15       years and I've always appreciated that.  And I've 

          16       always appreciated your honesty. 

          17                    MS. GONISH:   Thank you. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   District 29, as you 

          19       said, if I can quote you, is a district that 

          20       isn't performing well, it's not working, it's a 

          21       very troubled district.  If you were to wipe the 

          22       slate clean, if you were to start anew, if there 

          23       was no school board, there was no leadership 

          24       team, nothing was there, what would you build to 

          25       make that district better?





 


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           2                    MS. GONISH:   A leader.  A leader 

           3       that can relate to everybody in the district and 

           4       I don't care what you look like as long as you 

           5       are knowledgeable and you have the people skills 

           6       and you know how to deal with every faction in 

           7       the neighborhood.  This is what District 29 

           8       needs, alright.  We are troubled Ms. Thomson.  We 

           9       really and truly are.  We really, you have no 

          10       idea what's going on in this district, okay and a 

          11       lot of people have blinders on their eyes, but I 

          12       look at it from the truth, from the perspective, 

          13       okay.  So, your welcome. 

          14                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Again, Ms. 

          15       Gonish, we thank you very much.  I acknowledge 

          16       that District 29 has a lot of difficulties, but 

          17       they're lucky to have you as a springfield 

          18       gardens.  Thank you for being here today. 

          19                    MS. THOMSON:   Ronnie Rogers, 

          20       parent, Assemblyman Scarborough Task Force on 

          21       Education in District 29.  Dr. Gloria Black, 

          22       Chairperson of the Education Committee of 

          23       Assemblyman Bill Scarborough in Assembly District 

          24       29.

          25                    DR. BLACK:   Thank you very much 




 


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           2       Ronnie for having yielded to me and good morning 

           3       to you distinguished people, the forum of the 

           4       task force for the State of New York. As was 

           5       said, I am Gloria Black, B-L-A-C-K, and I might 

           6       say to you that I come from a long history with 

           7       three characteristics.  One, I'm a parent, a 

           8       parent of two girls who were educated in District 

           9       29 and who are professionals.  One a lawyer and 

          10       one an Administrator in Norfolk, Virginia.  

          11       Secondly, I have been an advocate for children 

          12       two-thirds of my life and you detect possibly a 

          13       southern accent.  I hail North Carolina where I 

          14       tediously worked with Martin Luther King in the 

          15       Civil Rights Movement and that leads me to the 

          16       focus where we are now having worked very hard in 

          17       the late '60's and 70's with Roll McCoy for the 

          18       expressed purpose of doing what?  Establishing 

          19       community control and of course what happened?  

          20       We do get a version of that in decentralization 

          21       which I question.  I wanted to say this from the 

          22       onset and didn't do it, that's screwy again.

          23                    When I look at the panel, and I've 

          24       worked with you Honorable Sanders.  When I look 

          25       at this panel, I have the understanding that you 




 


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           2       were created in terms of membership, ten from the 

           3       Senate and ten from the Assembly.  When I think 

           4       in terms of making an assessment in terms of the 

           5       representative for Queens, it's a large 

           6       geographical area and has been stated to you 

           7       prior with the individual who has just spoken, we 

           8       do have problems over there.  I'm not so sure 

           9       that they're all in District 29.  My assessment 

          10       is a little different.  However, I question the 

          11       viability and the functional well being of South 

          12       Queens being represented.  No offense to you Mrs. 

          13       Pheffer, Honorable Pheffer because that's not 

          14       yours, but having been appointed, only one person 

          15       from the Assembly to represent all of Cent 

          16       Queens.  What happened to Southeast Queens, a 

          17       large district?

          18                    Okay, now with that, to continue.  

          19       As I said before I have worked as a teacher, I 

          20       have worked as a counselor and I have worked as 

          21       an Assistant Principal.  I have 39 years and 

          22       seven months in the field of education.  I have 

          23       worked in public school system in Brooklyn and 

          24       believe it or not, the silk stocking district, 

          25       Lawrence High School, and I'm able to make a 




 


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           2       comparative analysis of what's happening here in 

           3       our school district and it's deplorable and 

           4       unconscionable and I can't go into that now, all 

           5       of it, because it's not necessary but you can 

           6       talk to me personally, okay.

           7                    I know the classic struggles and 

           8       high points of success in the academic arena that 

           9       we have experienced and I can tell you that the 

          10       projected centralization of the functions of 

          11       public education might be looked upon me as a 

          12       total disconnect.  A total disconnect in support 

          13       of the local school districts, if you follow what 

          14       I'm saying.  It is my intent to bring to you my 

          15       thoughts, my insights on the two areas.  First of 

          16       which is the legislative governments.  And by the 

          17       way, I was a part of that, but we get no credit 

          18       in our district.  I worked with you in Albany 

          19       just for this structure.  The law was designed 

          20       for inclusion of parents in policy and decision 

          21       making in our system.  PTA Presidents who are 

          22       parents with a respected school districts were to 

          23       be appointed to leadership teams and let me tell 

          24       you about that. 

          25                    Nothing wrong with that concept in 




 


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           2       theory, it's excellent.  But I can assure you as 

           3       I go around in District 29, 27 and 28, it's not 

           4       happening realistically.  Why is it not happening 

           5       realistically?  Because years and years and 

           6       generations, there is a classic struggle between 

           7       those of us who are not as intellectually astute 

           8       and who else?  Administration, faculty and the 

           9       more elite and that's what's happening.  We have 

          10       parents, yes, we have given them the right to be 

          11       on that team, but most of our parents, and I have 

          12       to use the modular of the districts with which I 

          13       work, or assist as a volunteer, and by the way, 

          14       my life has taken on volunteer-ism since '92.  I 

          15       retired in 1992 from the system.  What happens?  

          16       We find that the parents who have been appointed 

          17       or elected, whatever the animal, that so often 

          18       these parents, classically, are intimidated, 

          19       highly intimidated, so therefore when one is 

          20       intimidated what happens?  You are not likely to 

          21       come out with the truth of how you truly feel for 

          22       the good of the student.  That's what we're all 

          23       about.

          24                    The other weakness of the leadership 

          25       team as I perceive them, perceive it is the fact 




 


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           2       that the parent who happens to stand up and be 

           3       counted, usually the President, can only serve as 

           4       long as, and if I'm in error correct me please 

           5       later, as long as his or her child or children 

           6       are in that (inaudible).  She or he cannot 

           7       succeed himself or herself.  What happens to that 

           8       type of skill, that type of experience?  We have 

           9       nowhere built in this system to move on or to 

          10       link with the need-ness that's up the road.

          11                    In terms of also governance, we find 

          12       that the parents are not truly represented if 

          13       they have any representation at all.  The faculty 

          14       represented by UFT.  The Administration or 

          15       Principals by who?  The supervisory, what is it, 

          16       SEA.  But where do the parents turn.  You see we 

          17       didn't think in terms of that.  If you want the 

          18       parents voice to be made, and they are to be 

          19       viable agents then they to must have a protective 

          20       device and we don't have that.

          21                    Secondly, there's another piece 

          22       here.  I'm probably skipping around.  And that is 

          23       the local school board. I want to share with you, 

          24       and this is personal but I have to tell you like 

          25       it is.  I ran for our board on three different 




 


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           2       occasions because at that time we had not, we had 

           3       only one educator on that board and that 

           4       individual happened not to have been and 

           5       Afro-American educated person as much respect as 

           6       I have for that individual.  I was turned down.  

           7       Alright, to add to what I'm saying, we fought 

           8       hard, we meaning those of us who go back to the 

           9       '60's and the '70's, for some kind of community 

          10       control and as I said before, we had 

          11       decentralization and now we are faced with the 

          12       dilemma of losing our enfranchisement and I don't 

          13       think that's going to happen because we worked to 

          14       hard for it.  But, there has to be a change in 

          15       terms of the structure, in terms of the 

          16       functioning. 

          17                    Why?  Number one:  Because the 

          18       boards as they exist, no all on behalf of what 


          19       you said, the boards are markedly, and that's a 

          20       generalization, some of the boards are markedly 

          21       how politically influenced.  Also if the boards 

          22       so happen they may be used as stepping stones for 

          23       just this, the Council, and that happens.  And by 

          24       the way, I serve as Vice President of Community 

          25       Board 12 so I know about this networking.  Not 




 


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           2       only that, there's a lot of nepotism on those 

           3       boards.  If I have an aunt whose a counselor or 

           4       what have you, then I'm likely to get an 

           5       appointment.  I'll get the support anyway.  And 

           6       those others of us who are truly children 

           7       advocates and parental advocates for quality of 

           8       education of our youngsters we don't have a 

           9       chance.  But I don't say throw out the boards.  

          10       There must be another way for our voting rights.  

          11       We're here offering, and I'm quoting on it wasn't 

          12       Bush's original idea, it was of a lady.  I can't 

          13       remember her name, but she says leave no child 

          14       behind, is that right?  We talk about 

          15       accountability.  We talk about safe schools and 

          16       we can go on and on with the educative processes 

          17       or the concepts. What do they mean to any of you 

          18       or to any of us?  When the structure and the 

          19       functioning of, I think it's the largest 

          20       educational system in this country, is on it's 

          21       knees, you've got to wake up to see what is truly 

          22       going on.

          23                    Alright, what do I recommend for the 

          24       two concepts of the two structures.  Number one, 

          25       in theory the leadership teams, leadership teams 




 


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           2       are excellent, however, need to be overhauled.  

           3       What do I recommend?  I would recommend that: 

           4                    One: That we would, that you would, 

           5       whoever the powers might be, you would institute 

           6       regular in service training like we do for 

           7       teachers and we pay the teachers or we give them 

           8       credit and I know that because I teach teachers, 

           9       okay, who are elected to leadership teams for 

          10       parents and eligible community leaders.  An 

          11       ongoing type of a training because education is 

          12       changing everyday, the needs are changed.

          13                   Two:  PTA Presidents who serve on 

          14       leadership teams and who cannot succeed 

          15       themselves on the team structure themselves be 

          16       used as mentors.  I would facilitate mentoring 

          17       for hopefully some type of a board member 

          18       structure to be newly established.                   

          19       Three:  That we create a vehicle whereby parents 

          20       with training to serve as evaluators of district 

          21       administrators and faculty members because you 

          22       can't do it now.  Someone has to evaluate them 

          23       too, other then City Hall as we have it now. 

          24                    Four:  In terms of involvement of 

          25       parents in the district.  I would recommend that 




 


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           2       we rate principals according to the number of 

           3       parents involved in the design and policy making 

           4       in their respected schools.  Teachers are.  You 

           5       should see the books that they're using now in 

           6       the district to evaluate teachers and their 

           7       performance with students. 

           8                    And Five:  Superintendents should 

           9       hold principals accountable for the same. 

          10                    Recommendations for community school 

          11       boards.  And I say that for lack of another 

          12       concept.  I would refer to that board and I'm 

          13       recommending that we continue that kind of an 

          14       entity, that we might call it, and I heard that 

          15       before, Borough Boards where in lieu of community 

          16       school boards.  That we restore significant 

          17       authority to the members of that board in terms 

          18       of budgeting, in terms of curriculum development, 

          19       however, they too need training.  It's not that 

          20       simple in terms of --  I developed curriculum 

          21       development.  I did it for Social Studies in the 

          22       State of New York so I know about it. 

          23                    Okay, and I also say that these 

          24       individuals, if you were to use that type of a 

          25       design, that these individuals would be 




 


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           2       accountable to, if it is a borough, to the 

           3       Borough President and then the linkage would be 

           4       with the Central Board and I guess it's in New 

           5       York City at this time. So you have a linkage, a 

           6       lining. What's the composition?

           7                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I'm going to 

           8       have to ask you to begin --

           9                    DR. BLACK:   Alright, but you gave 

          10       the other 32 minutes, initially you went to long.  

          11       Okay, one more point and I'm finished. 

          12                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Just for the 

          13       edification of everyone in the audience.  We're 

          14       going to try, we try to limit the presentation to 


          15       five minutes and then we have time for questions 

          16       and answers that's the reason why we run so long.  

          17       But please complete your remarks ma'am.  Thank 

          18       you. 

          19                    DR. BLACK:   In conclusion, how 

          20       would I structure it?  I would say five trained 

          21       parents, we're talking about community school 

          22       boards.  Five trained parents, two retired 

          23       educators, two civic leaders and it could be 

          24       business as you mentioned before, that the 

          25       criteria and requirements for candidates be 




 


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           2       overhauled, that you search them carefully and 

           3       finally that the retired leadership team, our 

           4       teams, serve and you heard me say that before, as 

           5       mentors to school board members.  And I conclude 

           6       by saying even though I did have the time that an 

           7       initial individual had first, leave no child 

           8       behind, but I also say leave no community out of 

           9       the mix. Thank you. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you Ms. 

          11       Black. Do we have any questions? 

          12                    MS. THOMSON:   I have one question.  

          13       Thank you so much for your testimony and for your 

          14       passion for your district.  You're suggesting a 

          15       model with, if I have it right, strengthens 

          16       school leadership teams --

          17                    DR. BLACK:   Yes. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   And then a Borough 

          19       Board. 

          20                    DR. BLACK:   Yes. 

          21                    MS. THOMSON:   Is there anything in 

          22       between?

          23                    DR. BLACK:   I had not thought about 

          24       it. That's projection.  I'd have to think about 

          25       it.




 


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           2                    MS. THOMSON:   Okay.  If you give 

           3       some thought to it and want to provide feedback 

           4       to us we can provide you with the address. 

           5                    DR. BLACK:   Thank you very much. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assembly 

           7       member Pheffer. 

           8                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   

           9       Clarification.  The Borough Board, maybe I missed 

          10       it and I apologize, was that going to be 

          11       appointed or elected. 

          12                    DR. BLACK:   Okay, that's --  He 

          13       asked me to move on and I guess I left that 

          14       requirement off.  The Borough Board participants 

          15       or members should be elected.  That's the power 

          16       of the people. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

          18                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes, I have a short 

          19       one.  You said that this new governance 

          20       structure, in your opinion, should be five 

          21       parents, two retired educators and two civic 

          22       leaders --

          23                    DR. BLACK:   That's if it's what we 

          24       setting up a model in terms of the board.  Yes.  

          25       Yes. 




 


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           2                    MR. CLAYTON:   My point was, 

           3       so you're saying that the majority should be 

           4       parents --

           5                    DR. BLACK:   Yes, but qualified, I 

           6       qualitated it, right?  Okay.  Not just any of us. 

           7                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well we thank 

           8       you very much for your.  Excuse me.  Another 

           9       question.  Mr. Levin. 

          10                    MR. LEVIN:   Dr. Black, I'd like to 

          11       learn from  your experience in a historical 

          12       connection starting with Dr. Martin Luther King.  

          13       So circumstances at that time led to this 

          14       structure that we currently have.  How would you 

          15       define or describe the circumstances in Queens 

          16       today that would help us think about the 

          17       structure that's appropriate today?

          18                    DR. BLACK:   Okay.  You use the 

          19       concept of geographically Queens.  That's all of 

          20       Queens, right?  When I worked with Dr. King, 

          21       there were only, as we perceived at that time, 

          22       two variables, two strong factors.  The minority 

          23       and the minority at that time happened to have 

          24       been us and of course the majority in terms of 

          25       power.  So that's what we were trying to 




 


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           2       establish, equality, justice among the races, if 

           3       I have to use that concept.  Today in Queens 

           4       there is a different type of a mix alright.  

           5       Ethnicity and it's growing wider and wider. You 

           6       see, if I may were to make a comparative analysis 

           7       the problems are largely the same. 

           8                    Each group, each of us wishes to 

           9       have a voice or we wish to have our expectations 

          10       for our civil rights, and in this case, educative 

          11       process for our children to be the same as those 

          12       in control.  If that answers your question.  

          13       Thank you. 

          14                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Once again we 

          15       thank you very much.  I have had an opportunity, 

          16       I think, to work with Assemblyman Scarborough and 

          17       I was going to say, I understand why he's so 

          18       knowledgeable because the task force of men and 

          19       women who he has appointed to advise him, and you 

          20       being one, offer up very insightful and very 

          21       thoughtful ideas. So, I was happy to work with 

          22       you some time ago and happy that you are here 

          23       again. 

          24                    DR. BLACK:   I met you in Albany.  I 

          25       was with my daughter. 




 


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           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Yes Ma'am.  

           3       That's correct.  Thank you very much. 

           4                    MS. THOMSON:   Ronnie Rogers.  

           5       Ronnie Rogers is a parent and also a member of 

           6       Assemblyman Scarborough's Task Force in District 

           7       29. 

           8                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Let me just 

           9       again say for the edification of people who came 

          10       in late.  I'm probably was remised not to repeat 

          11       this along the way.  We try as best we can to 

          12       confine the testimony to about five minutes to 

          13       allow as many people to speak and to allow the 

          14       members of the task force to ask questions.  I've 

          15       been provided with this timer.  I haven't 

          16       resorted to using it and so we just try to have 

          17       people confine their remarks to about five 

          18       minutes.  I know it's a short amount of time and 

          19       I know there is a lot to be said, but we try to 

          20       get as many folks in and hear from as many as we 

          21       can.  So, thank you very much. 

          22                    MS. ROGERS:   Good morning.  My name 

          23       is Ronnie Rogers and I have to, I won't be able 

          24       to continue if I don't say this.  I have a tape 

          25       recorder and I recorded what was being said and 




 


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           2       the first gentleman had thirty minutes to speak.  

           3       Wait.  When it came time, maybe you didn't 

           4       appreciate what was being said, that's my 

           5       opinion, you found a time, a clock to tell us 

           6       that we have five minutes to speak.  I take 

           7       offense to that because what I have to say is 

           8       just as important as what anyone else has to say.  

           9       I have a passion for children overall.

          10                    Now, with that out of the way.  I am 

          11       a mother of six children, five of which are 

          12       adults.  I'm a grandmother of twelve.  Three of 

          13       the adult children are Administrators, one adult 

          14       is a teacher, a certified teacher.  Now I have a 

          15       twelve year old.  Pardon me if I'm at the age now 

          16       where my memory fades from time to time. I am and 

          17       have been an active member of the PTA from the 

          18       beginning when my other children were in school.  

          19       I was PTA -- I've always been involved.  Work, 

          20       children and school.  I've been PTA President, 

          21       I've been on the President's Council, I've been 

          22       on the School Leadership Teams in their 

          23       inception.  I've been on the District Leadership 

          24       Team and I hail from District 29 and I'm proud of 

          25       it.  I've been on the District Advisory Council, 




 


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           2       I've been on the Citywide Advisory Council.  I'm 

           3       now on the State Advisory Council at 55 Hansen.  

           4       I've been on 100.11 Committee that's directed by 

           5       the state.  I'm saying all of this to say that 

           6       I'm not an educator, but I'm a parent and I'm an 

           7       informed parent.

           8                    I believe that the school boards 

           9       should remain because our rights are being 

          10       violated if they are taken away.  They are our 

          11       only avenue of representation.  In my plight as a 

          12       parent, whenever there was a problem there were 

          13       channels that you must go through to get the 

          14       problem resolved. Those channels have all been 

          15       dissolved.  There's no longer a Board of 

          16       Education as we know it.  If they get rid of the 

          17       school board, we have no avenue in which to state 

          18       our complaints and Ms. Evita Belmonte who is a 

          19       good friend of mine is our representative for 

          20       Queens, but Evita is one human being and she 

          21       cannot handle the whole borough of Queens 

          22       efficiently. It's just not logical.  It's not 

          23       feasible, so I suggest that we keep the school 

          24       boards in tact but that we have qualified people 

          25       on the school boards.  People that have to go 




 


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           2       through requirements just as when you need a 

           3       Superintendent or a Assistant Principal or 

           4       Principal, you have a C-30 Committee that's 

           5       formed by the parents and the school members to 

           6       screen people for Superintendent or for 


           7       administrative positions in the school system. 

           8                    Well, I think that we should develop 

           9       some kind of screening process for school board 

          10       members, not just that they are popular because 

          11       that's not what we're looking for.  We're looking 

          12       for qualified people to be on the school boards.  

          13       If that were the case and the schools boards 

          14       weren't being used as stepping stones for 

          15       politicians to go into the political realm, maybe 

          16       they wouldn't have as many problems as they have 

          17       had.  So if we could have a screening process 

          18       where people on the school board were first 

          19       screened, we would know that we have qualified, 

          20       educated people on the committees.

          21                    I would also suggest that we have 

          22       five parents, two civic people and two educators.  

          23       Five parents because it's our children whose 

          24       lives are in these school board's hands.  Now, 

          25       the other thing I want to say is school 




 


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           2       leadership.  I hear something that makes me 

           3       believe that you all are thinking of using school 

           4       leadership teams as the end all of end all, the 

           5       answer.  It's not the answer and I'll tell you 

           6       why.  School leadership teams are comprised of 

           7       parents, teachers, administrators and a UFT 

           8       person.  The only constant in school leadership 

           9       teams are the Principal, the teachers and the 

          10       UFT.  The parents are transients.  They're in and 

          11       out of the school.  The other components are 

          12       there for as long as they're in the school 

          13       system.  Not only are the parents transients 

          14       because their children are only in the school for 

          15       a short period of time, but they're transients 

          16       because they are only allowed to be on the school 

          17       leadership team for two terms and after that 

          18       they're gone. 

          19                    Secondly, about school leadership 

          20       teams, is that, I have to look because my memory 

          21       fails me, we have conflicting answers to some 

          22       questions about school leadership.  Now I said 

          23       I've been on the school leadership team from the 

          24       inception.  One area says, one mode says that 

          25       school leadership teams are developed by an 




 


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           2       election of the teacher by the teachers, by the 

           3       faculty and by the election of the parents by the 

           4       PTA.  Well I'm here to tell you that there are 

           5       two modes.  One is election and the other mode is 

           6       the PTA President appoints people to the school 

           7       leadership team.  And thirdly, and lastly, about 

           8       school leaderships, as I said, I've been on 

           9       committees citywide so I'm not talking just about 

          10       my own little world.  Parents don't have a voice 

          11       in school leadership for the most part.  In some 

          12       areas it works and fine.  I congratulate the 

          13       areas where it's working.  In some areas school 

          14       boards work, fine.  But in, but the gist of the 

          15       parents citywide is that they don't have a voice 

          16       on school leadership.  They're told when they go 

          17       into the room what's on the agenda, what's going 

          18       to be dealt with and they go from that point on.  

          19       If you have a difference, it's a situation on 

          20       school leadership where it's a general consensus.  

          21       What does that mean?  It doesn't mean that the 

          22       majority rules, it means that we all have to 

          23       agree. 

          24                    But if you happen to disagree 

          25       because you're knowledgeable, more knowledgeable 




 


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           2       then someone else, then you're hailed a trouble 

           3       maker which I can understand why you would view 

           4       me as such, but that's not right that we don't 

           5       have a real voice when it comes to school 

           6       leadership.

           7                    It's not working and anyone that 

           8       thinks that school leadership is going to be the 

           9       avenue in which we are represented as parents are 

          10       just fooling themselves and we're going to be the 

          11       losers.  And when I say we, I mean our children.  

          12       I don't have a lot at stake right now because my 

          13       grandchildren are out of state and they're fine 

          14       because I'm their grandmother and I believe in 

          15       education and all of my children have been to 

          16       college.  All didn't graduate, but they are 

          17       educated and they're all taking care of 

          18       themselves.  There's no one at home, thank God, 

          19       other then my twelve year old, so I don't have a 

          20       lot to lose, but I do have a lot to lose because 

          21       every child that I see is my child and that's the 

          22       way I see things.  So, I'm as passionate and as 

          23       upset at what's going on as all hell because I 

          24       know what's going down the tubes.

          25                    I said lastly, if this goes through 




 


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           2       and we have no more school boards we need very 

           3       much, before you vote on this, we need very much 

           4       to find an avenue to educate parents across the 

           5       city on what a school board really is because the 

           6       parents don't know and they don't know what 

           7       they're getting ready to lose and down the line 

           8       like with everything else, like when school 

           9       governments was put into place in '96 and the 

          10       school boards lost all of their power, now we sit 

          11       back and say well when did that happen? Why did 

          12       that happen?  That's going to happen to the 

          13       school board when a parent has a problem and he 

          14       has no place to go.  And it's only if --  I 

          15       believe the squeaky wheel gets the oil, if you 

          16       know somebody, maybe you have a chance of getting 

          17       some kind of resolution to a serious problem, but 

          18       in most cases the parents won't know where to go 

          19       and their children will be the losers. 

          20                    We have a whole lot of laws out 

          21       there against children like the safe law.  I 

          22       don't --  It's a state law where by teachers can 

          23       at their whim, decide that your child is not 

          24       behaving to their standards and they can suspend 

          25       them.  We have no avenue if we have nobody to go 




 


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           2       to.  And there's other laws.  It seems to me like 

           3       our children are being steered toward jail and 

           4       toward being slaves that are being paid at a 

           5       minimum salary because if you have no education 

           6       you cannot work anywhere and raise your family, 

           7       so you're lost.  Our children, there was an 

           8       article, I didn't bring it because I knew I 

           9       wouldn't be able to read it, but they say that 

          10       our children are going to be to have to --  You 

          11       state people know what it is.  They're going to 

          12       have to know physics, chemistry, what's the other 

          13       one, and trigonometry.  They're going to have to 

          14       take those regents to get out of high school.  

          15       Well, I'm going to ask you something? 

          16                    If they can't make it, if they're 

          17       not reading on grade level at grade 8, how in the 

          18       hell are they gonna pass chemistry, physics, 

          19       trigonometry.  They're not going to be able to do 

          20       that so what does that mean.  Our children are 

          21       not going to graduate from high school.  There 

          22       goes that slave state that I'm talking about.  

          23       Where are they going to be?  Where are they going 

          24       to work?

          25                    So, I, in case you didn't understand 




 


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           2       what I was saying, I think we should keep school 

           3       boards.  I think we should revamp them.  Educate 

           4       parents.  I think we should educate parents right 

           5       now because what you said the first thing is 

           6       supposed to go in on December 15th.  Today's the 

           7       12th.  How are the parents going to know what's 

           8       going on by the 15th.  They need to know what --  

           9       Before you take away something we need to know 

          10       what it actually is that is being taken away from 

          11       us and I think it's against the law and I'm going 

          12       to say this and I'm gonna leave.  I promise, it 

          13       doesn't mean anything until you tell me to go. 

          14                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I don't want 

          15       to have to do that. 

          16                    MS. ROGERS:   It's the same analysis 

          17       as you taking away the school boards.  First of 

          18       all, you say it's a done deal, June of 2003.  But 

          19       on the other hand you say but parents have a 

          20       right to voice their opinions.   So, is it a done 

          21       deal or do we have a right to voice our opinions 

          22       and will our opinions mean anything?  Now, here's 

          23       the thing.  If, when Bill Clinton was President 

          24       he was doing the same thing.  People didn't like 

          25       (inaudible) and we found  fault in him and on a 





 


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           2       whole if a group of people got together and said, 

           3       "you know what, that Clinton is no good as a 

           4       President, and as a matter of fact there hasn't 

           5       been a good President for the last 30 years, 

           6       let's get rid of Presidents".  That's what you're 

           7       saying by taking away the school board the way I 

           8       understand it because we elected the school board 

           9       and now you're saying well, it didn't work so 

          10       we're going to arbitrarily take it away from you 

          11       without us voting on it.  I got a problem with 

          12       all of this. 

          13                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, first 

          14       of all thank you for being here.  The remarks 

          15       that you had to make were not only very 

          16       passionate but I think resonated with all the 

          17       members of this task force.  Before I ask for 

          18       question, which I will in just a moment, let me 

          19       just very briefly make clearer what the status of 

          20       the law is and again what the purpose of the task 

          21       force is.  The State Legislature did vote and the 

          22       Governor did sign into law as part of the 

          23       governance reforms in June, the abolition of the 

          24       local community school boards as we know them at 

          25       the end of June, at the end of this school year.  




 


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           2       However, the purpose is not to eliminate local 

           3       representation at the district level.  It is to 

           4       replace it with we hope something better, 

           5       something more effective, something more 

           6       representative and something that I think I speak 

           7       for everyone in this room on the panel or not, 

           8       something that will actually improve because of 

           9       the existence of a new kind of board and better 

          10       input by parents and the community. 

          11                    Something that will improve public 

          12       education.  I don't know of anybody who was 

          13       satisfied, certainly no in Queens and certainly 

          14       no people from Southeast Queens.  If anybody was 

          15       satisfied with the academic results of students 

          16       by enlarge throughout the city in 1996 when the 

          17       Legislature made the first of the changes in 

          18       Governors.  I don't think anybody wanted to keep 

          19       the status quo because the status quo would have 

          20       meant 25 more years of inadequate education.  So, 

          21       what we want to do is as we change the status 

          22       quo, make it better.  Not leave the community 

          23       without representation.  Certainly not.  But to 

          24       ensure that whatever comes after the school 

          25       boards are phased out, whatever comes to replace 




 


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           2       them is better representation, is more effective 

           3       representation and hopefully will lead to more 


           4       effective education results on the part of the 

           5       students because ultimately that's really what 

           6       it's all about, I think.  It's not about who has 

           7       the power so much, it's about making sure that 

           8       education in New York City is of a quality and 

           9       that our children are learning and that the 

          10       teachers are teaching and we're looking for a 

          11       structure to that will help ensure that the 

          12       results in the next 30 years will be better then 

          13       the results that have been in the last 30 years.  

          14       So, having said that brief editorial, let me go 

          15       to some question.  Cassandra Mullen. 

          16                    MS. MULLEN:   Hi, how are you?  I 

          17       took to heart many of the remarks that you and 

          18       the speakers that came before you made and I 

          19       think I understand where you're going with it.  

          20       I'm just going to summarize it and then ask you a 

          21       question about it.  I too believe that you should 

          22       have elected members because the people do have a 

          23       right to choose whose in there but I take to 

          24       heart your statement that there needs to be some 

          25       kind of a screening process so that the people 




 


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           2       who are elected aren't just politically ambitious 

           3       and don't just use it as a stepping stone for 

           4       something else.  How do you reconcile or how 

           5       should we reconcile some kind of a screening 

           6       process to make sure that these board members 

           7       truly have the children's interests at heart with 

           8       the idea of open election?  I mean, how do you --  

           9       Do you screen people prior to them running, do 

          10       you somehow have a screening process afterwards 

          11       or maybe do you have some sort of governing body, 

          12       state wide, district wide, however wide, that 

          13       maybe handles complaints or grievances in that 

          14       fashion to make sure that everything is as it 

          15       should while preserving people's right to elect 

          16       their community leaders?  How do you --

          17                    MS. ROGERS:   I would suggest that 

          18       you have, they be screened before they're even 

          19       allowed to put in an application.  Not after the 

          20       cow is out of the barn.  Ideally there used to be 

          21       a situation where PTA's, I'm trying to keep my 

          22       train of thought where you could not be a PTA 

          23       President without having been on the board.  

          24       That's not the case anymore.  But the reason, 

          25       which was a good one, why you couldn't be a PTA 




 


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           2       President before being on the board is because 

           3       you needed time to learn.  Well, with that being 

           4       the case, I don't say that you have to have an 

           5       education because I don't have one.  You can be 

           6       educated without having traditional education 

           7       because I only thought of telling you what I did 

           8       when I heard other people talking about what they 

           9       did and when I look at what I did, it looks good, 

          10       you know.  So if parents, if the people that are 

          11       trying to get on the school board, put in a what 

          12       do you call it? 

          13                    MS. MULLEN:   A resume?

          14                    MS. ROGERS:   Right, right, right 

          15       and show what, I'm not talking about education, 

          16       I'm talking about you can tell from what a person 

          17       has done whether they're --  I'm sure I'm not, I 

          18       can't be on the school board, but I'm sure I 

          19       would be viable candidate if I put down all of 

          20       this stuff.  That's the way you would have to go 

          21       about doing it to make sure that there are people 

          22       that are really seriously interested in doing the 

          23       job because people volunteer to be on for power, 

          24       just to have it on their resume. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. DeLeon. 




 


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           2                    MR. DELEON:   Ms. Rogers, thank you 

           3       for being here.  Thank you for your candidness.  

           4       I have two questions for you.  One, you mentioned 

           5       that, if I heard you correctly, you mentioned 

           6       that parents were restricted to two terms on the 

           7       leadership teams.  Did I hear you correctly?

           8                    MS. ROGERS:   Yes. 

           9                    MR. DELEON:   Would you also 

          10       restrict the terms of the other people that are 

          11       on there, on the teachers and the Principal and 

          12       the UFT?  I'm saying that right now, if I heard 

          13       you correctly --

          14                    MS. ROGERS:   Yes, you did. 

          15                    MR. DELEON:   Term limitations are 

          16       just for parents and so my question is should it 

          17       be universal for everybody on that team?

          18                    MS. ROGERS:   No.  What I would 

          19       suggest is that parents are not limited to two 

          20       terms and surely don't take away the expertise 

          21       that's on the committee.  The teachers also put 

          22       in their time and they're learning right along 

          23       with us, so let them stay for as long as they 

          24       possibly can and then after their children are 

          25       out of the school, for instance my child is out 




 


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           2       of elementary school now, he's now in the seventh 

           3       grade, I have no problems and I do it anyway with 

           4       being a mentor.  I go back to my child's PTA the 

           5       school that he came from, PS 195 and I give what 

           6       I've learned back to the school because my grown 

           7       children range in age from 28 to 34, so these are 

           8       like children to me.  These are the future. 

           9                    These mothers that came here from 

          10       District twenty --  They're the future.  If we 

          11       don't depart the knowledge that we have in them, 

          12       it's a lost cause, so I propose that through the 

          13       state's, I don't know who because I don't know 

          14       what the thing is now with the Board of Education 

          15       not being the same.  Whoever formulated school 

          16       boards, I mean school leadership teams, I propose 

          17       that they have some avenue where there's a 

          18       mentoring program going on in the elders of the 

          19       clan if you will.  Have a position to help the 

          20       youth. 

          21                    MR. DELEON:   My second question is 

          22       what role does, what functional roles did the UFT 

          23       rep?

          24                    MS. ROGERS:   I am not a UFT person, 

          25       I can't tell you.  I guess --




 


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           2                    MR. DELEON:   Well, from your 

           3       experience what function roles has the UFT member 

           4       been on the leadership team?

           5                    MS. ROGERS:   Well, on a school 

           6       leadership team ideally, when I was on the 

           7       leadership team, we talked about curriculum.  We 

           8       talked about programs.  We talked about programs, 

           9       after school programs and what not and no, he 

          10       want's to know where the UFT fits in.  Well the 

          11       teachers in that forum, they need to make sure 

          12       that they're being protected as far as if we 

          13       thought of an after school program then they 

          14       would have to make sure they're getting paid and 

          15       they have to be protected so the UFT person is 

          16       there to make sure that their --

          17                    MR. DELEON:   That their contractual 

          18       rights are protected, is that?

          19                    MS. ROGERS:   Yes. 

          20                    MR. DELEON:   How do we protect the 

          21       childrens' rights?

          22                    MS. ROGERS:   That's what I'm asking 

          23       you. 

          24                    MR. DELEON:   Thank you very much. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Friedman. 




 


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           2                    MR. FRIEDMAN:   Ms. Rogers I want to 

           3       thank you for your testimony.  Your resume is not 

           4       good, it's great.  If you're a trouble maker I 

           5       like you because we're the only advocates our 

           6       children have and people who are trouble makers 

           7       and considered pains in the necks are the one's 

           8       who are most important to our children's future.  

           9       You bring up some great points.  I loved your 

          10       analogy about the President and I love your idea 

          11       about a screening committee like the C-30 

          12       Committee to set up a pool of candidates for 

          13       whatever council or body is going to be 

          14       established.  What I want to touch on is your 

          15       wealth of experience sitting on a district 

          16       leadership team, being involved with school 

          17       boards when they had more authority and 

          18       responsibilities compared to post 1996, the

          19       responsibilities and authority they have now.  

          20       Speaking as a member of a school leadership team 

          21       and knowing what works and what doesn't work you 

          22       discuss structure, what the body might look like, 

          23       but what about the functions they would have, the 

          24       responsibilities they would have?  Have you 

          25       thought about specifically are there any 




 


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           2       responsible powers of former school boards that 

           3       you'd like to see returned or new things brought 

           4       into the picture to make a better body for the 

           5       community?

           6                    MS. ROGERS:   Well, if I even knew 

           7       the answer to that question, I can't remember, 

           8       but one of the things that I would like to see 

           9       returned to the school board members is the right 

          10       of hiring of the Superintendents.  There has to 

          11       be some form of accountability as far as school 

          12       Superintendents and school board and what I've 

          13       seen is a total disrespect and the school board 

          14       Superintendents treat, and I'm not just talking 

          15       about one specific Superintendent, I'm 

          16       generalizing, they treat the school board member 

          17       as if they're not important at all.  They don't 

          18       follow the rules.  No one is following the rules.  

          19       What they say school board members, (inaudible), 

          20       I've spoken to a school board member and they 

          21       didn't have the information, like I said, I go to 

          22       citywide meetings, state wide meetings, and they 

          23       don't have any of the information that I have as 

          24       a parent and what's that about.  Because, I don't 

          25       know.  Does that answer the question?




 


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           2                    MR. DELEON:   Thank you very much. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assembly 

           4       member Pheffer. 

           5                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Thank you.  

           6       Thank you for your testimony.  I know you've 

           7       given this a lot of thought and I just want to 

           8       finish.  The school board that you recommend 

           9       after it's screens that's going to run for 

          10       election, we've been having the rollover system 

          11       or whatever it's called, do you have any thoughts 

          12       about that?  I mean, we're now going to have 15 

          13       people up for election and you're going to vote.  

          14       Did you feel comfortable with the vote with the 

          15       way you had it before?

          16                    MS. ROGERS:   No.  They need to vote 

          17       for school board people when they're voting for 

          18       the lower officials.  Not in mid-year --

          19                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   You mean in 

          20       September or November with the general election. 

          21                    MS. ROGERS:   Yeah, when everything 

          22       is going on and that way you would only have to 

          23       come out one time to vote. 


          24                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Yeah, no, I 

          25       just knew you had some thoughts about that.  I 




 


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           2       wanted to hear it. Thank you. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton 

           4       and then Assemblyman Green. 

           5                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes Ms. Rogers.  I 

           6       want to thank you for coming here today and for 

           7       giving us your testimony and I also want to 

           8       congratulate you on guiding six of your children 

           9       through the system, moving them out of your house 

          10       and now they are productive citizens.  I mean, 

          11       that shows us time after time after time what an 


          12       involved parent, the effect they have on their 

          13       children.  There's no doubt about it.  The data 

          14       can't be refuted on that.  Now I also heard you 

          15       say something that, I'm starting to warm up to a 

          16       little bit and that's that you feel if the new 

          17       body is created that again like Ms. Black said, 

          18       that is should have two educators.  Like 

          19       Ms. Black said, two retired educators. 

          20                    You know,  I feel good retired 

          21       because now they don't have that union connection 

          22       but clearly their expertise, clearly their 

          23       expertise is needed if you're talking about the 

          24       responsibility of curriculum, guiding curriculum 

          25       and things like that and it would keep Ms. Black 




 


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           2       in the mix of things because we'd hate to lose 

           3       such a knowledgeable person.  Now that brings me 

           4       also to yourself being that your kids are out of 

           5       the system and most of the speakers we've been 

           6       hearing were saying that this new paradigm should 

           7       be created with parents who have children in the 

           8       school system.  Now, I tend to differ when it 

           9       comes to a parent of your caliber because we 

          10       wouldn't want parents who have been through the 

          11       maze, know the system, fought in the trenches, we 

          12       want to keep them, keep that experience and 

          13       expertise on a new governance structure.  How 

          14       could we keep a parent like you in a new 

          15       structure? 

          16                    MS. ROGERS:   Well the reason I'm 

          17       not in --  I'll tell you what the reason is that 

          18       I'm not in the structure and then you can come 

          19       with some ideas as to how to keep parents in the 

          20       structure.  You notice that I'm very outspoken 

          21       and very knowledgeable of certain things.  Why 

          22       I'm not involved is because the powers that be 

          23       don't want parents like myself involved so it 

          24       would be your charge to find a way to make, put 

          25       in writing parents like myself must have a part 




 


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           2       in this struggle that we're in because right now 

           3       I feel somewhat disillusioned because you got all 

           4       of this information and you're dying to give it 

           5       to the Principal and I'm not talking about any 

           6       particular Principal, but their problem is they 

           7       don't want to appear that you know more then they 

           8       do, okay.  Personality (inaudibly).  So, we have 

           9       to put something in writing that will allow us to 

          10       be a part of it without being turned away at the 

          11       door even though they say parental involvement is 

          12       welcome.  When you get to that door, and you're 

          13       not around, we're not welcome.  So you have to 

          14       put it in writing where we can say well, here. 

          15                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Green. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   I'd like to, 

          17       Ms. Rogers, one of the things that a number of us 

          18       have been struggling with is the, we know that 

          19       parents are the most important advocate for 

          20       children, in most important social capital for 

          21       children.  I think most folks understand that.  

          22       The real challenge that a number of folks have 

          23       had is particularly looked at  the school 

          24       leadership teams as an example.  The issue of 

          25       what should be the essential role that parents 




 


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           2       should have in a school building as an example, 

           3       how do you create a mechanism that at the end of 

           4       the day essentially empowers an educational ethic 

           5       between the home and the school and do, what are 

           6       the powers that a parent should have in doing 

           7       that?  Is it essential that the parent have the 


           8       power to select a Principal or is it more 

           9       important that the parents have at least an 

          10       advisory role?  On the question of the budget, 

          11       should parents have complete control of the 

          12       budget or maybe a part of the budget?  What 

          13       you're thinking in terms of that?

          14                    MS. ROGERS:   I'm saying this 

          15       because I'm not trying to take anything away from 

          16       parents.  I'm one.  When I went through the 

          17       training for the comprehensive plan, trying to 

          18       manage a seven million dollar budget is crazy for 

          19       a housewife, okay.  I'm not saying that we're 

          20       not, there are parents that are accountants and 

          21       educated to do things like that but for the most 

          22       part, I'm a housewife and I can't deal with those 

          23       big numbers.  I think a parents part to play in 

          24       that is yes, they should be able to decide what 

          25       monies are spent on as far as whether we get math 




 


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           2       books or tools for learning.  We should be able 

           3       to be able to choose the Principal for our 

           4       school, yes we should and we should be able to be 

           5       on a committee to choose the teachers for our 

           6       schools because often times once the Principal is 

           7       in school, they bring their friends in and we as 

           8       parents want certified, qualified teachers 

           9       teaching our children, but we have no part in 

          10       that.  That's where the UFT comes in and they 

          11       protect their own.  So, I think our plight is to 

          12       be able to choose through a process the teachers 

          13       on a committee with the Principal, to choose a 

          14       Principal for our schools, to work with the 

          15       Principal on the budget but in the areas where I 

          16       said.  Like if we need a --  We have to decide, 

          17       which we had to do, decide on whether to have an 

          18       after school program or a piano.  Things of that 

          19       nature, but by far, we can't dilute ourselves 

          20       into thinking that we're capable of running.  

          21       That's what we have administrators for, to work 

          22       that seven million dollar budget. 

          23                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   One last 

          24       question.  You alluded to, I guess, the Safe 

          25       Schools Act, right.  Did the parents on the 




 


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           2       school leadership team have any involvement in 

           3       defining student code of conduct?

           4                    MS. ROGERS:   No.  No. 

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   Do you think 

           6       that's a role that parents should be empowered to 

           7       have?

           8                    MS. ROGERS:   I think that the code 

           9       of conduct that's already in place is good 

          10       enough.  I think that the Safe Act gave teachers 

          11       the ability to get rid of the problems in their 

          12       class as opposed to dealing with it and, let me 

          13       just say this, I think that parents' 


          14       responsibility is to deal with the situation as 

          15       my child is having a problem and they want to 

          16       suspend my child.  I think that it's the 

          17       responsibility of the parent to step up, but 

          18       that's ideal, really, but we know that that's not 

          19       working so there should be an avenue in place, 

          20       not that Safe Act.  There should be an avenue in 

          21       place where we, I just thought of this, where we 

          22       have a committee of parents in the school to deal 

          23       with the problems of these problems as opposed to 

          24       going through the law and starting a record for 

          25       these children.  In other words, if a parent is 




 


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           2       not able to step up to the plate and discipline 

           3       their child for whatever reason, there should out 

           4       of the PTA, I would even say, there would be an 

           5       avenue where that committee out of the PTA would 

           6       come together, this is biased, but I would call 

           7       all the grandmothers in on this, and we would 

           8       work with the parent and the child that's the 

           9       problem as opposed to putting them through the 

          10       system to give them somewhat of a record.  Makes 

          11       sense. 

          12                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well 

          13       Ms. Rogers, you make sense and we thank you very 

          14       much for your insight and for your many years of 

          15       wisdom that you took time to share with us this 

          16       morning. 

          17                    MS. ROGERS:   Thank you. 

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you. 

          19                    MS. ROGERS:   Thank you very much. 

          20                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you. 

          21                    MS. ROGERS:   You all have a real 

          22       good day, okay? 

          23                    MS. THOMSON:   I'd like to invite 

          24       Borough President Helen Marshall.                             

          25                    MS. MARSHALL:   First I'd like to 




 


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           2       welcome -- Hi Peter, how are you?  I'll sit.  I'd 

           3       like to welcome you to Borough Hall.  Borough 

           4       Hall in Queens means education.  I'm a Borough 

           5       President who is formerly very active in the 

           6       public schools with my children.  I'm a teacher 

           7       and throughout my political career, it's been 

           8       education.  Nine years in the Assembly on the 

           9       Higher Education Committee, ten years in the 

          10       Council, first on the Education Committee and 

          11       then I convinced the speaker who very graciously 

          12       established a Higher Education Committee which I 

          13       had the privilege to Chair and we brought new 

          14       light and new support for the City University, 

          15       one of the most important institutions in our 

          16       city which was not properly recognized before. 

          17                    But I first of all want to welcome 

          18       all of you.  I see many friends here.  My former 

          19       colleagues.  Steve, it's good to know that you 

          20       are the Chair of the Education Committee.  He was 

          21       always a bright and shiny star on the Assembly 

          22       and still is and the hands of our children are in 

          23       your hands and I think they are good hands.  And 

          24       I see Kathy Wylde who we go way back to the 

          25       beginning of housing partnership.  Because of her 




 


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           2       we have about 42 nice little two family homes 

           3       built and at reasonable prices and knows all of 

           4       those homes, by the way Kathy, are still 

           5       beautiful and still living up to the, and they 

           6       all take a great deal of pride in their 

           7       ownership, etc.  And to all my colleagues in 

           8       government, Audrey Pheffer, Peter Rivera, 

           9       probably there is, and John LaVelle, how about 

          10       that.  I remember you.  You're not a Senator or 

          11       you are a Senator?  You're still in the Assembly, 

          12       good for you.  I think the Assembly is the right 

          13       place to be. Maybe not so much for Republicans 

          14       but.

          15                    At any rate, let me start off by 

          16       saying we live in a democracy.  How does a 

          17       democracy work?  It's a participatory government.  

          18       If we don't participate in the government the 

          19       government doesn't work.  The main channel that 

          20       people have for participating in the government 

          21       is to vote.  You vote a person in and you can 

          22       vote a person out.  Not so easy to vote him out.  

          23       You can vote to replace him, yes.  I, without 

          24       realizing it, probably started my political 

          25       career when my children were in school.  Actually 




 


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           2       when they were in nursery school.  When they were 

           3       in the center, their nursery school was in a 

           4       center that was moving out of the area and I had 

           5       to fight to hold on to the center and hold on to 

           6       the nursery school.  I went into public school 

           7       six months before my son started who is my first 

           8       child, in the Bronx, P.S. 2, a school that needed 

           9       a lot of help and I worked very feverishly to 

          10       replace the old building that was down on the 

          11       children were still using because of the 

          12       overcrowding.  And I did a lot there in 

          13       education.  I came to Queens and before I knew it 

          14       I was roped in as the Legislation Chairperson at 

          15       P.S. 143 and it's been a long, long, long 

          16       involvement for me and I am an advocate of Martin 

          17       Luther King and I believed in integration and I 

          18       went through all of that struggle and pain, I 

          19       would say, with people of all groups.  We stuck 

          20       together trying to get a quality education for 

          21       our children.  I bring that to the table.

          22                    I remember when my children were 

          23       little, of course, I was involved with their PTA.  

          24       It was between the Principal, the parents and the 

          25       District Superintendent.  We always had a local 




 


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           2       school board.  It's part of this city and this 

           3       system.  They were not elected, but in most 

           4       cases, they were distinguished members of our 

           5       community.  College professor, business people, 

           6       educators, people with long educ - -  The person 

           7       who was the Borough President's education person 

           8       who had a doctorate in education sat there.  And 

           9       I would say that because of the quality of those 

          10       people, particularly I'm talking about District 

          11       30 here in Queens, because of the quality of 

          12       those people and their commitment and the hard 

          13       work of the parents and the community we were 

          14       able to establish some very innovative 

          15       integration programs like the Princeton Plan 

          16       (inaudible) where you play at two schools.  And 

          17       we did many things and all throughout the Civil 

          18       Rights Movement we were fighting for the rights 

          19       of children, minority children who were being 

          20       neglected in the educational system.  Many

          21       things came out of that.

          22                    And one of them came the idea of a 

          23       having of electing school board members and I 

          24       felt, well we called it school decentralization 

          25       and I felt well maybe this would even be a better 




 


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           2       opportunity to get involved, you know, to bring 

           3       the parents in and to really make an impact on 

           4       the education of our children and I believed that 

           5       when it was established that was the goal.  Now 

           6       we know that you can put a system in place, each 

           7       of you legislators.  I was on the Transportation 

           8       Committee.  We wanted to establish seat belts.  

           9       We had a fabulous staff that did all the research 

          10       and we had to get very knowledgeable about the 

          11       death rates and all of the, everything.  How 

          12       impacts on people and bodies and different kinds 

          13       of accidents.  Look at some gory movies.  At any 

          14       rate, we came up with a plan to present to our 

          15       colleagues and we developed the seat belt law and 

          16       as each of you know, you don't just stop there.  

          17       You do amendments to improve, improve, improve.  

          18       That's what amendments are.  You don't destroy.  

          19       You don't disintegrate.  I hate to say, but I 

          20       think some of that happened with school board 

          21       elections. 

          22                    First of all, even their timing is 

          23       off and parents don't even feel like what good 

          24       does it do if I go to vote or not to vote, but 

          25       what we should have done, we should have done 




 


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           2       what we do with every other logical thing, every 

           3       other system that we have in government.  The 

           4       minute that you step out of New York City and 

           5       you, in a locality, you are involved in the 

           6       school budget, every citizen is involved in the 

           7       school budget, you are involved in the 

           8       Principal's salary.  I know.  I have a house out 

           9       in Sag Harbor.  I mean they spend the whole page 

          10       on the Principal of the local school and they 

          11       question him.  They're taxes are going to 

          12       reflect, his salary is reflected in their taxes.  

          13       They have a lot of say.  Why can't New Yorkers 

          14       have the same kind of say.  Not the same kind of 

          15       say, but they are stake holders.  They're the 

          16       stake holders in the most important commodity to 

          17       our world and that's people.  Their children are 

          18       our people.  We don't have oil wells, we don't 

          19       have gold mines.  Our greatest resource is our 

          20       people.  It's one of the reasons that I stick so 

          21       hard with education and I fought so hard for the 

          22       City University.

          23                    Now, when we say, how could we have 

          24       improved those school boards?  First of all, when 

          25       we looked and we saw that in some areas they were 




 


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           2       just becoming steps for political people to 

           3       advance, that's not really the worst thing, but 

           4       on the other hand, we want people who are 

           5       knowledgeable of what really goes on in that 

           6       system.  Let me ask you a question.  How many 

           7       people here have had a child in the public school 

           8       system, just like the former lady said here, how 

           9       many of you?

          10                    Okay.  It's not everyone, right. 

          11                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Some of us 

          12       haven't had children.  But those of us who 

          13       haven't, speaking for myself, went through the 

          14       public school system all my life. 

          15                    MS. MARSHALL:   That helps too.  I'm 

          16       really saying that there's a learning curve.  

          17       There's a learning curve.  You just can't bring 

          18       people to the table, now you're a member of the 

          19       school board or any other thing without giving 

          20       them back up in knowledge.  They need to know the 

          21       legislation. They need to know the various trends 

          22       in policy, how they're developed, they need to 

          23       have a really good working knowledge of the 

          24       educational system because this is what they're 

          25       going to be modifying.  We don't have that.  Even 




 


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           2       now, our present central Department of Education, 

           3       they don't have it and yet their expected to make 

           4       big, big decisions about the children.  We needed 

           5       to educate even community boards more then we 

           6       were.  Right now, very happy that the Borough 

           7       President's were given the opportunity to put 

           8       parents on the central Department of Education.  

           9       We bring parents in.  We strip them of every bit 

          10       of resource.  Every bit of resource.  Not even a 

          11       desk.  And, of course, they need to have those 

          12       expert, they need to have a group of experts 

          13       combing through all this stuff, making 

          14       presentations, informing them.  Steve, you know.  

          15       You have Steve Allenger, at least, do you still 

          16       have Steve?  I --

          17                    SPEAKER:   The Chancellor has Steve. 

          18                    MS. MARSHALL:   Oh, the Chancellor.  

          19       Oh, alright, oh boy.  But I know when I become a 

          20       Chairperson or my colleagues when they become 

          21       Chair person, they put you like in an incubator 

          22       for about two weeks and when you walk out of 

          23       there, you walk out there like an expert and 

          24       that's only the beginning of your working and 

          25       training.  So that we do need to have, they do 




 


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           2       need to have training.  They need to have, in 

           3       fact, when you were voting on school governance, 

           4       we actually held a hearing here and, by the way, 

           5       this hearing is not well attended.  Wait until 

           6       tonight.  Our meeting started at seven o'clock 

           7       and we didn't get out of here until eleven.  We 

           8       tried to listen, we couldn't even listen to 

           9       everyone.

          10                    And remember that the parent today 

          11       is different then the parent of yesterday.  The 

          12       parent today, that mother is working nearly, in 

          13       fact, most parents go to work when their children 

          14       are even three.  Some are going when their 

          15       children are three months.  Some of the jobs will 

          16       not hold your position any longer then three 

          17       months.  So that parents are, mothers are 

          18       working.  We are finding more fathers coming 

          19       because somebody got to be in there, but the 

          20       parents are not participating in the school 

          21       because, you have some systems in place now.  You 

          22       have the parent leadership team.  Are you looking 

          23       at it?  What I'm told is that the teachers want 

          24       the meeting early in the morning because it's 

          25       convenient for them, the parents can't be there 




 


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           2       or they'll lose their jobs, they want to have it 

           3       in the evening. 

           4                    The little things like that can make 

           5       a dramatic difference in how it operates and 

           6       parents who could really make a difference, they 

           7       can't sit there under those conditions.  When we 

           8       had that hearing, it surprised me because I 

           9       thought they were going to talk about the school 

          10       governance.  What they complained about was the 

          11       lack of respect by the teachers, by the Principal 

          12       and I'm talking, yes there are some crazy's, you 

          13       know, you've got to listen to those crazy's, you 

          14       know, they're hitting some points that are 

          15       important.  And then there are those parents who 

          16       are not crazy's who are in there and trying, 

          17       sitting on those panels, switch their job time so 

          18       they can make sure that they sit on that panel, 

          19       that school leadership team.  Sitting here in 

          20       this room telling us that it's meaningless.  I 

          21       sit there, I participate, I talk, I do my 

          22       research and nobody pay attention.               

          23                    I bring all this out because 

          24       whatever system we have in place, we have to 

          25       ensure that the stake holders, the parents, the 




 


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           2       children can't be stake holders, their parents 

           3       have to be the stake holders for them.  They must 

           4       have access to this system.  They must impact 

           5       this system.  They must make it work for their 

           6       children.  As a teacher, I know I can't work 

           7       without a parent.  I've got to have a parent 

           8       working with me on their children.  If I don't, 

           9       then I'm not getting the whole picture.  I only 

          10       have that child for a small time of the day.  The 

          11       parent has that child for all the rest of the 

          12       time.  The parent brought that child into the 

          13       world, maybe for the first three years of their 

          14       lives.  I've got to be communicating with that 

          15       parent and as a former active parent in the 

          16       school, I'm going to tell you as a parent, I said 

          17       to parents, I said, "you don't put your child any 

          18       place that you don't walk in with them".  I mean, 

          19       even to know the curriculum, to know how the 

          20       school is structured, to know there's a bright 

          21       class, a not so bright class, a slow class.  I 

          22       mean, we move from one school to the other and 

          23       when my children took the exam, their records 

          24       weren't there at the school yet, my children took 

          25       the exam, my daughter was placed in a very slow 




 


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           2       class.  In Kindergarten, she was one of the three 

           3       children picked out to start first grade work. 


           4       Because she was --  Hi, how are you doing?  She 

           5       didn't realize even, she was so busy socializing 

           6       in this new environment. 

           7                    I had to go to that school and get 

           8       that straightened out.  This is after she said, 

           9       "Mommy, I did this book already", okay, but if I 

          10       wasn't an alert parent, my daughter could have 

          11       stayed there. My daughter is a college graduate, 

          12       a beautiful, bright, active young business woman 

          13       today.  I wanted my children to get science.  It 

          14       was not being taught.  Wouldn't you think science 

          15       would be taught?  I was criticized for wanting 

          16       science.  My son is a rocket scientist out there 

          17       in California designing satellites.  Graduated 

          18       from City College School of Engineering.  But 

          19       without the parents, there are so many 

          20       opportunities for parents.  If you talk to the 

          21       District 75 parents, they are militant because if 

          22       they weren't militant, their children would be 

          23       lost.  Their children would be lost.

          24                    I'm concerned now that they're 

          25       talking now about disintegrating District 75.  




 


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           2       You know that many parents don't know that under 

           3       the laws of this state, that their children are 

           4       entitled to an education where ever that school 

           5       can be to match their children's needs.  Do you 

           6       know how many parents don't know that?  How many 

           7       parents don't know that?  Never mind poor parents 

           8       and a lot of minority parents, a lot of immigrant 

           9       parents, the immigrant parents come in knowing 

          10       nothing, alright.  Without that --  And not only 

          11       that, but what do parents become?  Parents become 

          12       advocates for education.  They become the people 

          13       --  That's the strong base when I was a PTA 

          14       President we had the UFT.  We had a train that 

          15       went to Albany once a year.  It was the longest 

          16       train on the line, okay, and parents descended on 

          17       that capital knowing --  Like I said, I was the 

          18       legislator's chair person for my school.  We had 

          19       legislative agendas, we met with all the 

          20       legislators.  They knew that there were parents 

          21       in these schools and that somebody was looking 

          22       out for these kids.  We don't have that today.

          23                    So, my concern here is, first of all 

          24       that we have the best education that we can for 

          25       our children.  I believe that you just don't 




 


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           2       destroy a system.  In our school boards, I see 

           3       Ms. Willner sitting behind me, hard working.  

           4       She's probably been on that school board, how 

           5       long?  Twenty years.  Former educator herself, 

           6       dedicated and committed and there are a number of 

           7       them that are sitting, not always educated, that 

           8       are sitting on our school boards.  If we see the 

           9       slide in parent participation, and there is a 

          10       slide in it. It's sinking because really and 

          11       truly between the school boards and the UFT and 

          12       CSA, the parents really don't, there's no place 

          13       for them.  Now we were given a course, as I said 

          14       before, the privilege of placing five parents on 

          15       the Central Department of Education.  So far, 

          16       we're watching, but I don't see where they're 

          17       participating.  They have, the Speaker told us, 

          18       they mandated hard bargaining, that they vote on 

          19       policy and budget.  Nearly everything that's come 

          20       out there of that Department of Education has 

          21       been policy and budget and they're not voting on 

          22       those things.  They're not becoming knowledgeable 

          23       about those things.

          24                    Decentralizing is going backwards.  

          25       Centralizing government is going backwards.  John 




 


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           2       Lindsey became the Mayor, he started little town 

           3       halls.  Those little town halls grew into, 

           4       eventually, community boards.  We have now fifty 

           5       people sitting in every single patch of land in 

           6       New York City is covered by a community board and 

           7       that community board is involved in land use, all 

           8       kinds of things that come to that community.  You 

           9       have a democracy.  People have a meaningful way 

          10       of contributing to their government.  I would be 

          11       very distressed if we removed that network.  

          12       First of all, let's talk about the mother of 

          13       today. 

          14                    She's worked all day, she comes 

          15       home, puts on here jeans and her sweater and 

          16       she's got dinner and she's got that squared away 

          17       and she knows that once a month she can go 

          18       someplace within range, not the Tweed Building, 

          19       not 110 Livingston Street, although they get 

          20       there sometimes too, but she can go someplace in 

          21       here district and meet some, and there will be 

          22       somebody sitting at that table who she can throw 

          23       her problems at, she can scream and yell at and 

          24       the people who have the authority, the District 

          25       Superintendent's sitting there, and the board 




 


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           2       members and she knows and I've seen it time and 

           3       time again, come there.  Now if there's a crisis, 

           4       of course, they jam the whole auditorium, but it 

           5       does always end up with a group of people that 

           6       come all the time.  You can't say that you've cut 

           7       off their input into their children's education.  

           8       If we cut that off we're in trouble and I don't 

           9       think it's what democracy is supposed to be.              

          10                    We are a democracy.  It requires 

          11       participation.  We are not anarchy, I mean we're 

          12       not a dictatorship, we are a democracy, so 

          13       anything that we do, we must do that.  If we kept 

          14       somewhat the same structure, let's say that the 

          15       majority of parents --  People on that board 

          16       would be parents.  The greatest majority, 


          17       whatever number you want to have.  You also could 

          18       have someone from the business world.  You could 

          19       also have an educator.  You can have a community 

          20       leader.  Also, the way that people are elected.  

          21       We have, District 24, we have one member here 

          22       from District 24, Louisa Manuel, nearly everybody 

          23       from District 24 which spans from all the way up 

          24       in Corona, part of my Assembly District and 

          25       Council District, all the way down to Glendale.  




 


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           2       The board is loaded from the Glendale end.  

           3       Glendale is now beginning to feel the 

           4       overcrowding and also the immigration, but they 

           5       haven't felt it for years, okay.  And up at our 

           6       end, we were screaming and crying because we are 

           7       presently, even until today, the epicenter of 

           8       immigration on the Northern end of District 24.  

           9       Make sure that you have territorial 

          10       representation.  We try to do that with the 

          11       community boards to make sure that we kind of 

          12       spread it around so that we're bringing in 

          13       everybody.  Lay down the law, define what you 

          14       mean by territorial designations and make the 

          15       majority of them parents.  Also, well, those are 

          16       some of the key elements.

          17                    I think we have a system that could 

          18       work better.  We simply took away the power of 

          19       the school boards to select the District 

          20       Superintendent and certainly District 24 showed 

          21       that that probably is the best thing we could 

          22       have done, but that doesn't work in all other 

          23       areas, okay.  That doesn't work in all other 

          24       districts alright.  But we've had it in other 

          25       areas too.  I would say input.  I like the 




 


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           2       Chancellor having the say there.  I like the 

           3       Chancellor having the say.  I think the 

           4       Chancellor will try to be as fair as he can be 

           5       and he's interested in, whoever the Chancellor 

           6       is, he or she, has a broad idea, a knowledgeable 

           7       idea of the way the system is going and I think 

           8       that I would certainly, though, continue, even 

           9       with the principals and the District 

          10       Superintendents, the committee, whatever that 

          11       school board is, (I'm still calling it school 

          12       boards until we have a better name) whatever the, 

          13       a newly configurated school board would be that 

          14       they should be reviewing the different candidates 

          15       that are going up to be District Superintendents 

          16       and make a recommendation to the Chancellor of 

          17       maybe a few and some of that is somewhat done 

          18       now, but they should have input into it.  But the 

          19       final decision should be with the Chancellor.  

          20       That's my feeling about that.

          21                    Let me see, what else would I 

          22       include here.  Basically, you get the point.  We 

          23       must have, we must have in this, we must have in 

          24       every single, for all of our parents, an 

          25       opportunity to participate, they need to vote, 




 


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           2       they need to vote, they should even be taking 

           3       votes of the parents.  If you want, even include 

           4       the President's Council.  They need to be, and 

           5       even the school leadership team.  We need to not 

           6       just let it happen and let it go on and you know 

           7       the Board of Education, during my time, my 

           8       children were in school, they would come up with 

           9       the grandiose ideas and great ideas that sounded 

          10       wonderful, but they didn't follow through.  They 

          11       also don't replicate quality, good education.  I 

          12       could take you to the Louie Armstrong School, a 

          13       school that was given away by both school 

          14       districts, it's fabulous, and guess what.  It's 

          15       integrated. 

          16                    We went to court, okay.  Forty-five 

          17       percent children are white and fifty-five percent 

          18       are minority.  One of the things that we did, we 

          19       brought Queens College in.  I was going to Queens 

          20       College and John Lithstrom was the head -- I was 

          21       an education major and I said,"John, come and sit 

          22       down and help us with this that's still there".  

          23       That school is one of the most outstanding 

          24       schools in the city.  People come from all over 

          25       to see how it operates.  It's a Chancellor's 




 


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           2       school.  Parents fight to get their children in 

           3       it.  You know we don't have an integrated 

           4       community anymore, so what did they do?  They 

           5       said the whole of Queens is eligible and so they 

           6       pulled children from all over the borough and 

           7       that keeps that population integrated and now, a 

           8       new twist on the integration, we have children 

           9       from all over the country, from all over the 

          10       world, so when you go into that school you truly 

          11       see New York City.  They have an orchestra.  It's 

          12       the Louie Armstrong School, every morning they 

          13       listen to "What a Wonderful World" over the 

          14       loudspeakers being sung by Louie Armstrong.  They 

          15       have very high scholastic ratings, everything. 

          16                    It can happen and we've got other 

          17       incidence of this all over the city that's not 

          18       looked at by the press.  You know the press is 

          19       conflict over substance, but we know, Terri 

          20       Thomson you know, that we have excellent schools 

          21       in this city, excellent examples.  Instead, we're 

          22       going off with the charter schools and the da da 

          23       da.  Look, look what we've got.  My son graduated 

          24       from City College School of Engineering.  He 

          25       could have gone to about six or seven of the 




 


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           2       other major colleges, but he wanted to go there.  

           3       Saved us money so we bought him a little car or 

           4       something, but we really questioned him, "are you 

           5       sure this is what you wanted to do?"  He wanted 

           6       to do it.  Today, he sits at the head of the 

           7       table with those guys from MIT and all these 

           8       other places, Princeton and Yale who wanted him 

           9       to come there too.  City College School of 

          10       Engineering and how did many of us get here? 

          11       Nearly all of us are products of the public 

          12       school system.  We're the legislators and you 

          13       count the legislators who went to the City 

          14       University there, they're countless. That's the 

          15       way poor people got through.  That's the way poor 

          16       people got through and that's how this city was 

          17       built.

          18                    So, if I leave a message with you at 

          19       all, it's whatever system we put in place, and 

          20       I'm not against the present system, I'm more 

          21       modifying the present system.  I'm for modifying 

          22       it and I know a lot of people will talk about 

          23       Borough Boards.  Yes, that would be, I could say 

          24       as a Borough President, that would be fine with 

          25       me, but I'm more concerned that the parents have 




 


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           2       and if I have to be involved in some way, don't 

           3       worry I'm going to get involved anyhow as long as 

           4       it's education, but make sure that there's a way 

           5       that the parents, on a regular basis, can get to 

           6       the decision making.  They are the stake holders 

           7       and by the way, if you keep them out, you're 

           8       breaking the law of this land.  You're killing 

           9       the whole concept of democracy.  They are not 

          10       participating and it's the most important product 

          11       that we have.  It's our people.  That's what I'm 

          12       urging. 

          13                    I would like to add one thing.  This 

          14       is a letter, and by the way, one of the things 

          15       that I have a number of initiatives that I've 

          16       instituted since I've become the Borough 

          17       President, you saw the cases in the hallway which 

          18       is one of them, there are many more that have a 

          19       lot more substance.  And one of them is a parent 

          20       institute.  I wanted parents to come to organize 

          21       so that they can be empowered with the knowledge 

          22       of how the system works and by appointing, I've 

          23       worked it out, you know, you've got to adapt. 

          24       Since we do have a parent appointee at the 

          25       central, on the central panel Department of 




 


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           2       Education and she is very, very active, Evita 

           3       Belmonte, and since she's very active with the 

           4       parents, we have a large --  She meets with them 

           5       on a monthly basis.  We have a large group of 

           6       them giving input and she takes that input to the 

           7       board and we're going to even enhance that 

           8       because I want parents to know how this system 

           9       works.  Empower them with the knowledge so that 

          10       they can be participants in this government.  Not 

          11       just participants, but meaningful participants, 

          12       participants who understand and develop working 

          13       relationships with principals and school boards 

          14       and whatever.  One of the concerns that that 

          15       group did have about this meeting, they urged, 

          16       maybe I'll just quickly, I'm going to read it 

          17       quickly.  It's signed by a million of them so I 

          18       won't all their names.

          19                    "We the undersigned", and this is to 

          20       the Task Force on Community School District 

          21       Governance, "We the undersigned of the Queens 

          22       Borough President's Advisory Council and Evita 

          23       Belmonte, the Queens Member of the Panel of 

          24       Educational Policy of the Department of 

          25       Education, applaud your mission to find an 




 


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           2       equatable replacement for the soon to be 

           3       abolished local School boards. It is imperative 

           4       that parents and community members are able to 

           5       continue to enjoy local access and input into the 

           6       educational process.  While we realize that each

           7       school will continue --  I'm going to jump that.               

           8                    However, all of us are concerned 

           9       about the ability of parents and other interested 

          10       members of the community to participate in this 

          11       process.  The timing of the public hearing so 

          12       close to the due date for you recommendations to 

          13       the Legislature, makes it impossible that 

          14       valuable suggestions and alternatives may be 

          15       overlooked due to the time constraints involved 

          16       in finalizing your report.  Inclement weather is 

          17       also a factor, and may force the cancellation of 

          18       meetings, as the Chancellor's public forum was 

          19       cancelled this evening, December 5, 2002.                

          20                    We feel that the hearings concerning 

          21       the replacement of the local School Districts 

          22       should have been an ongoing process, rather then 

          23       waiting until the eleventh hour." And it's signed 

          24       by a number of them.  Timing is everything.  

          25       Notification is everything and if the 




 


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           2       notification is not done properly and it's not in 

           3       a timely manner then it loses its most important 

           4       element and I think it loses too much and so they 

           5       were concerned about that time constraints.  

           6       Steve, I don't know if there's any way of either 

           7       expanding the input or expanding the time frame, 

           8       but I do think more is required.  This is a wrap.  

           9       When we did our hearing here, we went, we didn't 

          10       leave a stone unturned.  We went to everybody, 

          11       all the schools, parents, everybody, 

          12       organizations, and we had quite a turnout here. 

          13                    Now, of course, my meeting was in 

          14       the evening because I know that the parents are 

          15       working during the day and so it was natural and 

          16       I thank you for having an evening session to.  I 

          17       applaud you for that because it gives working 

          18       parents that opportunity. 

          19                        I want to thank each and every 

          20       one of you who have been given a big 

          21       responsibility but remember how big that 

          22       responsibility is and whatever we do we must 

          23       guarantee that there is input from the stake 

          24       holders.  Thank you.  And I'm open to questions 

          25       if you have any. 




 


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           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

           3       very much.  I just want to say very briefly that 

           4       I've taken such great personal pride and just so 

           5       much enjoyed watching your progress through 

           6       government over the 20 years that I've known you. 

           7                    MS. MARSHALL:   You taught me 

           8       everything that I know. 

           9                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I think you 

          10       could teach me a few things now Helen.  So, first 

          11       of all, thank you so much.  Thank you for being 

          12       the generous host for us today --

          13                    MS. MARSHALL:   And that's open any 

          14       time. 

          15                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   And let me 

          16       just implore the members of the Task Force.  I 

          17       know that some of you may have questions, but try 

          18       to keep the questions as brief as you can because 

          19       after this part is over we're going to take a 

          20       short lunch break and there are other witnesses 

          21       who actually have to pick up their children by 

          22       three o'clock, so we want to finish, come back 

          23       and allow people to say what they need to say and 

          24       still be able to pick up their youngsters by 

          25       three o'clock.  So if you have questions, make 




 


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           2       the questions brief and to the point. 

           3                    MS. MARSHALL:   And I will be brief 

           4       too.  I don't want to stand between you and food. 

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assembly 

           6       member Rivera. 

           7                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   Helen, it's 

           8       nice to see you again. 

           9                    MS. MARSHALL:   Same here Peter. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   One of my 

          11       colleagues, well I heard everything you had to 

          12       say about parental participation and how do we 

          13       get more parents to participate and the fact that 

          14       one of the problems that we do have is exactly 

          15       that, parental participation.  One of my 

          16       colleagues came up with a suggestion.  A 

          17       colleague not from the City of New York and he 

          18       suggested that we try to create a vehicle that 

          19       citizens get to have a chance to vote on a piece 

          20       of the school budget, be it on a borough basis or 

          21       in some other fashion, but that there be 

          22       participation of the parents and the citizenry by 

          23       being able to vote on the school budget and if 

          24       you're able to do that part which is get people 

          25       involved in the finances, and again, not the 




 


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           2       whole budget because of the fact how we do create 

           3       the school budgets, but if we were able to create 

           4       a common concern and a common interest on how 

           5       money is being spent and the way it's being 

           6       allocated and what we do with it, then that will 

           7       add and enhance participation of the public 

           8       input, particularly participation of the parents.  

           9       What do you think of that?

          10                    MS. MARSHALL:   Well that's how it's 

          11       operated outside of the city.  For New York City, 

          12       that might not be an easy process, but if you 

          13       have school boards or whatever you're going to 

          14       call them, and the budget is, and they feel --  

          15       First of all, you're not even letting school 

          16       boards vote on the budget, you cannot separate 

          17       budget and education.  You can't separate them 

          18       and therefore, clearly if we have a 

          19       responsibility of voting on a budget with 

          20       whatever entity we identify, they will have to 

          21       hold hearings, which they and get input from the 

          22       parents from the parents in the district.  

          23       They'll get input from the teachers.  They'll get 

          24       input from everyone and certainly we need to 

          25       sharpen up those school leadership teams.  They 




 


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           2       need to be making recommendations.  You will 

           3       allow for input.  Voting on the school budget by 

           4       the pop --

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   By the school 

           6       budget in Queens would be different then the one 

           7       in the Bronx or at least that part of the public 

           8       would vote on would be --

           9                    MS. MARSHALL:   Who is the public?

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   That will be 

          11       something to a definition, but the idea is to 

          12       create that kind of a participation by allowing 

          13       people to vote on a part of the school budget. 

          14                    MS. MARSHALL:   Alright, let me say 

          15       it's in a part of the school budget is difficult.  

          16       Queens has a need for schools and we need more 

          17       buildings which might not be the same in other 

          18       boroughs, so I can understand a borough concept, 

          19       but on the other hand, I still think that I would 

          20       not respond to that.  I will say this, that I 

          21       think to have the public vote on the school 

          22       budget for Queens first of all, and to vote on 

          23       part of it, that get's shaky and I think it's too 

          24       difficult to do, but if you have a system set up 

          25       that works all year round, that works all year 




 


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           2       round and therefore the budget is built up, the 

           3       parents have the opportunity or anybody has an 

           4       opportunity to go before a school board and say 

           5       the things that they would like to see funded, 

           6       they could give you projects and things or a 

           7       certain way they see things.  As long as that 

           8       opportunity is open, but if you don't have that 

           9       local opportunity then it would be wrong to even 

          10       let them have the vote on the budget.  But I do 

          11       feel that the school boards do need to have a 

          12       bigger say and if not the vote on the budget in 

          13       their districts and that would give you, that 

          14       just triggers a whole situation where they have 

          15       to have public hearings, etc. 

          16                    MS. THOMSON:   It is an honor to 

          17       have you as our Borough President and thank you 

          18       for always, for many, many years putting the 

          19       children first and making education your 

          20       priority.  We, your citizens, appreciate that.  

          21       There were two ideas that were floated today.  I 


          22       don't know if you were here when they were talked 

          23       about, but I'd love your thoughts on it and I 

          24       don't know if you could thing about it now or if 

          25       you want to get back to us on it.  But you in 




 


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           2       your testimony spoke about the importance of 

           3       having parents involved in whatever entity it is 

           4       that we create.  The two ideas that were 

           5       suggested today was, one was that there be the 


           6       parents select the parents and the other was that 

           7       there be some prescreening of the parent members 

           8       so that parents who maybe had a lot of experience 

           9       in the schools or parents who have special 

          10       talents would serve on those boards or entities, 

          11       whatever they are. Do you have any thought on 

          12       that?

          13                    MS. MARSHALL:   That's getting 

          14       pretty finite in detail.  I like to see the 

          15       parents involved.  I'm realistic to know that's 

          16       no panacea and so parents do need some help along 

          17       the way just as you would.  Any person who comes 

          18       needs to know the system so that it's not really 

          19       a panacea but the one thing they know they have 

          20       their kid in that school and I would like to see 

          21       the parents not just involved because that's what 

          22       we went through with the school decentralization.  

          23       A place for them.  If you don't have a specific 

          24       place for them, what happens is what has 

          25       happened.  The parents are on the back burner.  




 


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           2       There's no meaningful reason for them to be a 

           3       participant and the school leadership teams which 

           4       we thought were going to do that is not working.  

           5       I would say that you would require that a certain 

           6       member of this, whatever you want to call it, the 

           7       majority are parents and they should be voted on 

           8       by other parents.  I really don't have, and I 

           9       think maybe that will take some of the politics 

          10       out of it.  It could take a whole lump of that 

          11       politics out of it and then you still have room 

          12       to put other people on that board, you know, you 

          13       could decide.  But they should be people who can 

          14       make an impact on the education too. 

          15                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 

          17       Green.

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   How are you 

          19       doing? 

          20                    MS. MARSHALL:   Hi Roger. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   It's always 

          22       good to see you and again, I too, would like to 

          23       commend the work that you've been doing here in 

          24       the borough and --

          25                    MS. MARSHALL:   It's a privilege for 




 


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           2       me.  You know that. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   But they 

           4       actually want you to speak louder.  You're not 

           5       often asked to do that. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   What is it that 

           7       we might be able to learn from the operations of 

           8       the community planning boards that are known, you 

           9       have some real connection to?  What can we learn 

          10       from the structure, the processes, (inaudible) 

          11       participation that exists there that might be 

          12       applied to a new formulation of community school 

          13       boards?

          14                    MS. MARSHALL:   We have at this 

          15       point because a system has been in place so long, 

          16       we have a body of members in every one of our 

          17       local community boards who are knowledgeable, 

          18       they have committees.  The committees have to 

          19       report back.  Certainly the Land Use Committee on 

          20       some major issue and other committees, they often 

          21       depend upon the leadership of the organization, 

          22       of the community board and we have some 

          23       committees that are extreme, all of our boards 

          24       actually work because they're dealing with the 

          25       development of the community so all of them work.  




 


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           2       What happens is that they are also an intrical 

           3       (intricate) part of the whole picture.  They're 

           4       part of the ULERT process.  Their involvements in 

           5       government is built in and that's now how it 

           6       started.  It didn't start out that way.  If you 

           7       have a land use issue, when it gets to the City 

           8       Council which is the last step, you have got to 

           9       have a letter on there with the vote of the 

          10       community board.  Now I hold also, a hearing on 

          11       land use and before me is the vote of the board 

          12       and I've already been briefed on the discussion 

          13       of the board and how they came to that 

          14       conclusion.  I bring in whoever is proposing it 

          15       and there's another opportunity for anyone from 

          16       the community to participate and testify.  I have 

          17       found that that's one way they actually, they're 

          18       built into the process.  Also, we have what we 

          19       call a Borough Board meeting once a month with 

          20       the Council members and the Chair persons of each 

          21       of our boards.  We develop an agenda.  They have 

          22       input into that agenda and I'm trying to make 

          23       even more input for them on suggesting --  And 

          24       it's always an issue that's important to the 

          25       borough or even important to one part of the 




 


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           2       borough and so that's another form of input.  We 

           3       have district managers, we have staffs for all of 

           4       these boards which we didn't have before and the 

           5       district manager has a team of people working 

           6       with them making sure the committees are 

           7       functioning and doing the day to day work of 

           8       that, for that community.  And all in all I don't 

           9       know how we can do without them.  I don't know 

          10       how we've ever, you know, I was back there in the 

          11       days when you walked into an executive even in 

          12       the Board of Education looked like it had cobwebs 

          13       around him, you know.  They didn't have a clue, 

          14       and when you say community boards and everybody 

          15       wants to know what is the opinion of the 

          16       community board.  Everyone.  Developers go there 

          17       with hat in hand and they're going to the 

          18       community.  They're going to fifty members of 

          19       that community and saying I'm asking you, I would 

          20       like to put this project in.  That is 

          21       participation and I think it's very meaningful.  

          22       So, I like the idea of that kind of mechanism in 

          23       the community for input. Also, it's linked up 

          24       with the Borough Presidents, it's linked up with 

          25       the City Council and it's State Assembly with all 




 


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           2       levels of government. 

           3                    So I like what's happening there 

           4       because it's the best way.  You know we've got to 

           5       figure out a way to get everybody, at least, you 

           6       can't get everybody in, but you get the majority 

           7       of opinion in.  And that's a good system. 

           8                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   One of your 

           9       colleagues, I know Aldofo Corrian, Borough 

          10       President from the Bronx, has suggested that not 

          11       only do we look at that, but also look at that 

          12       system as relates to some other issues that I 

          13       know Queens has faced, Brooklyn has faced, 

          14       related to the relationship between the need for 

          15       schools, school buildings, how we do those 

          16       plannings for buildings for children, the 

          17       community mapping that's needed for children, the 

          18       zoning issues, that seems to be always from the 

          19       top down from the command bureaucracy as opposed 

          20       to how it could be designed quite differently 

          21       with some synergy that would include democratic 

          22       participation on the ground through some kind of 

          23       new board formulation. 

          24                    MS. MARSHALL:   Because that's not 

          25       done, everything is not done up on a high level, 




 


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           2       the community, when we want to place a school in 

           3       a district, you get the whole community out.  

           4       You're going to get people who say, "No, we do 


           5       not want that school here", you know, and then 

           6       you got parents saying, "Please, thank God, we 

           7       need this school", and so that everybody in the 

           8       community gets involved in this process.  The 

           9       pros and the cons.  We had a beautiful synagogue 

          10       in Jackson Heights.  It was built while I was 

          11       here.  I came here in '57, it was built after 

          12       '57.  A modern, beautiful building.  This 

          13       synagogue came up for sale and we looked for 

          14       everything that we can to build a school and it 

          15       was moved to put the school there.  The people 

          16       were complaining.  Today, and they came out, the 

          17       whole community came out.  I mean, 200, 300 

          18       people to pro --  And we have that, some are for 

          19       and some are against.  A lot of them were against 

          20       it.  Today the architecture and that school, it's 

          21       the most beautiful addition to the block.  It's a 

          22       landmark district.  It all blends in.  

          23       Everybody's happy with the school and everybody 

          24       feels that they had a say. Even those who were 

          25       against it feel that they had a say.  That's 




 



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           2       important. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

           4                    MR. CLAYTON:   How are you doing 

           5       Helen?

           6                    MS. MARSHALL:   I'm fine. 

           7                    MR. CLAYTON:   Alright.  I just have 

           8       an observation for the sake of time and that is 

           9       that once again you're a prime example of showing 

          10       how parent involvement help through the 

          11       achievement.  You have a son, an African-American 

          12       male who graduated (inaudible) engineering.  With 

          13       all the odds against him graduated as an engineer 

          14       and a daughter in the business community and I'd 

          15       like to commend you on your years as a PTA 

          16       President and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention 

          17       that also in the 81 year history of the United 

          18       Parent Association that at some point you served 

          19       as it's Vice President and I can still hear the 

          20       parent advocacy in you.  It is very strong and 

          21       I'm glad to see you brought it into the Borough 

          22       President's Office.  Thank you. 

          23                    MS. MARSHALL:   Thank you very much. 

          24                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, Helen, 

          25       we all are indebted to you for you public 




 


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           2       service, for your advocacy, for your passion, for 

           3       your leadership in education and so many other 

           4       issues.  So we thank you so much for your advice.  

           5       We will undoubtedly have a need to have further 

           6       interaction with you, but for now thank you so 


           7       very much. 

           8                    MS. MARSHALL:   Thank you very much 

           9       and Roseanne Dorse is my Education person and of 

          10       course you have our new Department of Education 

          11       persons, you have them all over the city.  Thank 

          12       you very much for your time and effort in this.  

          13       I know you're all busy people.  Thank you. 

          14                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          15       Helen.  For planning purposes, for everybody, we 

          16       are going to take a brief recess now.  We are 

          17       going to reconvene at exactly, exactly 2:05 p.m.

          18                    (Recess taken at 1:38 p.m.)

          19                    (Reconvene at 2:10 p.m.)

          20                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   All the 

          21       members within the sound of my voice can come 

          22       into the room.  We are starting in sixty seconds.  

          23       We are going to resume and just for those people 

          24       who, just for a point of edification, it is 

          25       always the custom of hearings of this case to 




 


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           2       give additional latitude to elected public 

           3       officials and that's the reason why when Council 

           4       member Liu was speaking and when Borough 

           5       President Marshall was speaking, I did not try to 

           6       interrupt them and try to get them to confine 

           7       their remarks, but we will need to do that if we 

           8       are going to hear from as many people and do this 

           9       in an orderly process as we can, so I will ask 

          10       witness to try very hard to confine their remarks 

          11       to about five minutes.  If it goes a little past 

          12       that, I will have to just ask gently for people 

          13       to conclude their remarks.  So, we shall resume 

          14       now with Marge Kolb Corridan. 

          15                    MS. CORRIDAN:   Good afternoon.  I'd 

          16       like to thank the Task force for holding this 

          17       hearing and I gave my written testimony in, so I 

          18       won't read it verbatim, but I'll just say that I 

          19       have three children.  I went through public 

          20       school system myself.  I went to Hunter High 

          21       School though, which is under CUNY, but it's 

          22       still a public school. I have a son in the eighth 

          23       grade, one in Kindergarten and I have a one and a 

          24       half year old.  When my son was in fifth grade, I 

          25       was the PTA President at his elementary school 




 


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           2       and this year I'm the PTA President at his middle 

           3       school and I've been almost every month attending 

           4       the school board meetings in District 24 for 

           5       about five years.  So I know a lot about how my 

           6       one school board operates and I've certainly read 

           7       about others. 

           8                    I wouldn't want to judge all school 

           9       boards by my school board and there may be some 

          10       parents from my district that would advocate 

          11       doing away with the school boards because we have 

          12       a good relationship with our Superintendent, but 

          13       that doesn't mean that's the same in every 

          14       district and I think there's certainly a lot of 

          15       local issues that the school board addresses such 

          16       as zoning.  Our school board has held meetings 

          17       where they've invited local elected officials 

          18       from our area so that we could address concerns 

          19       in our area.  We've had police come in and talk 

          20       to us about precinct issues, traffic issues, all 

          21       those kinds of things.  So, those are important 

          22       local issues that I wouldn't want to have to go 

          23       to the Central Board to have to deal with.

          24                    And funny enough, when my mother was 

          25       the PTA President 30 years ago, that was around 




 


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           2       the time that decentralization was taking place, 

           3       I found a book at her house written by a parent 

           4       and a PTA person who talked about before the 

           5       local school boards when the parents would go to 

           6       the Central Board and would have two minutes to 

           7       speak and would be put on at the end of a program 

           8       at the end of the night and I don't remember all 

           9       the specifics, but there was some kind of a sit 

          10       in or take over of the, Mrs. Pheffer is nodding 

          11       her head, and that's what was written up in the 

          12       book, but you know, I understand, I read about 

          13       the problems with school board corruption and 

          14       politics and things like that and of course, you 

          15       know, we'd like to see that eliminated.

          16                    So, what I'd like to see is that the 

          17       community school board, or whatever you call it, 

          18       would be an extension of the school's leadership 

          19       teams.  So, if I'm not a parent, but I live in a 

          20       community, I can get on my local school's 

          21       leadership team as a community member.  There's a 

          22       provision in the law for that and then maybe, 

          23       then you would require at least one year 

          24       experience.  Then perhaps all the school 

          25       leadership team members from a district could 




 


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           2       vote for their own members to go to a central 

           3       board and obviously, you couldn't have one from 

           4       every school because that would be a big board, 

           5       but maybe you could split the district into three 

           6       geographic areas and then you could have the 

           7       schools in one area elect a certain number of 

           8       parents, you know.  I mean our school board 

           9       meetings are held in the District Office in 

          10       Glendale and we have parents that live in Corona.  

          11       So every month if they wanted to go, they would 

          12       have to travel down there.  I think if you had a 

          13       school board that was geographically 

          14       representative, they might hold the meeting in 

          15       the center of the district so that more parents 

          16       could attend.

          17                    I think Mrs. Marshall mentioned 

          18       about District 24 where there's a lot of 

          19       overcrowding in the north and the south didn't 

          20       feel it until lately, but, I mean, I've been 

          21       pushing for new schools to be built for a few 

          22       years now that I've been involved and the parents 

          23       turned out for a hearing at City Hall and --  So 

          24       that's what I feel about boards.  I listened to 

          25       some of the other testimony.  I came late because 




 


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           2       I actually had a school leadership team meeting 

           3       this morning and I have a PTA meeting tonight, so 

           4       this is my school day.

           5                    I'd like to comment on a couple of 

           6       things I heard.  One is, I could see if there's a 

           7       vacancy for a Superintendent where you would want 

           8       to have this community school board do a search 

           9       similar to what a school does when there's a 

          10       vacancy for a Principal, like a C-30 or C-37 or 

          11       whatever it's called.  But to have the school 

          12       board have the power every three years to renew 

          13       the Superintendent's contract, that's where we 

          14       had a problem in our district and I can envision 

          15       that again.  I don't think the Superintendent can 

          16       serve two masters.  Either the Commissioner is 

          17       responsible or the school board is responsible 

          18       and I would prefer to see the Commissioner 

          19       responsible.  We opened a new school in our 

          20       district recently and there were parents on a 

          21       committee to interview teachers.  That was 

          22       another point that came up and that worked well 

          23       and I don't know if that's the normal practice.  

          24       But for parents to have input in an ongoing basis 

          25       in hiring teachers, that I think is a bad idea as 




 


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           2       well.  The Principal is supposed to be the boss 

           3       of the school which is his company.  He's 


           4       responsible.  Superintendent is going to hold him 

           5       responsible for the performance of his school.  

           6       He's got to be able to have the latitude in 

           7       hiring the teachers.  I understand there's 

           8       parents that have problems with their principals, 

           9       then they should go up to the next step which is 

          10       talk to the Superintendent about the principals 

          11       they have problems with.

          12                    The problem is that most people 

          13       don't know what the steps are.  Now, I know that 

          14       the Central, that they have a parent hot line and 

          15       I put that in my PTA notices so the parents know 

          16       that.  I've been to school board meeting where 

          17       parents have come in with, what I thought was, 

          18       kind of petty complaints about a particular thing 

          19       and they were asked if they had talked to the PTA 

          20       or the Principal about it and they hadn't even 

          21       done that.  So parents don't always know all the 

          22       channels that they have to go through.  So, 

          23       that's, I really feel strongly that if the school 

          24       board has input in the hiring of a vacant 

          25       Superintendency, that's not a bad idea.  They 




 


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           2       interview a pool of candidates.  They give the 

           3       Commissioner a list of three or five people and 

           4       that narrows down the search for him.  And if he 

           5       has a candidate that he likes, he can throw that 

           6       candidate into the pool to be interviewed on the 

           7       district level as well.

           8                    Just to get back to local issues, 

           9       like zoning.  We opened a new school in Maspeth.  

          10       I wasn't zoned for it, but I went to the zoning 

          11       hearing and the District Office presented their 

          12       idea for the zoning.  Well there were parents 

          13       there that said, "Oh no, no.  I don't want my 

          14       child to have to cross this particular street, 

          15       it's a double yellow line, it's a big street".  

          16       So they went back and they tweaked the zoning 

          17       plan and they changed it and it was good for 

          18       those parents and those kids.  Now, if you had a 

          19       Superintendent who had the authority to be 

          20       totally autocratic on zoning issues, then I don't 

          21       think that that would serve the community.  My 

          22       Superintendent, we're very happy with, a lot of 

          23       the parents, as far as I know, but a lot of time 

          24       a District Office personnel do not live in the 

          25       community so they're not able to understand all 




 


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           2       the community issues the way that we do.  If you 

           3       look at a map, you say okay, south of this street 

           4       looks like good zoning for that school, but then 

           5       you don't realize that a street, it goes through 

           6       that area, is a major traffic nightmare and the 

           7       children will be safer staying on the side of the 

           8       street where they live in coming down to the 

           9       school. So that's my issue with some local input.

          10                    And, as I said, if you come through 

          11       with the school leadership teams, you're going to 

          12       have mostly parents, but you still have an 

          13       opportunity for community participation. I 

          14       wouldn't even have them be elections under the 

          15       Board of Election because there is low turnout.  


          16       And when my son was first in school and I was 

          17       working full time, I never voted in a school 

          18       board election.  I didn't get the information 

          19       from anywhere about even who was running or what 

          20       their platforms were.  Then when I was President 

          21       one year when we had school board elections, we 

          22       held a candidates night at our school and about 

          23       20 parents came. 

          24                    So, I mean, I tried to get the word 

          25       out on the school board elections, but if it's an 




 


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           2       issue that parents are really, really concerned 

           3       about, they come out.  If you hold a zoning 

           4       meeting, 200 parents will come.  If you have 

           5       health or safety issue with the school, the 

           6       parents will come. There was an issue with a 

           7       school in Middle Village where they did an art 

           8       project and they painted outside the school 

           9       little figures of children.  Well I want to tell 

          10       you, I thought it looked nice.  A lot of the 

          11       neighbors were upset that they thought it looked 

          12       like graffiti.  These were not parents, they went 

          13       to the school board, they told them how upset 

          14       they were and the school board said please paint 


          15       over it.  I don't even know if that was in their 

          16       purview, but the Principal and the Superintendent 

          17       responded to the neighbors complaints.

          18                    The last thing I want to comment on, 

          19       well two other things. 

          20                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I will need 

          21       you to begin summing up. 

          22                    MS. CORRIDAN:   I am wrapping up.  

          23       The community planning boards, the community 

          24       boards that Mrs. Marshall talked about as being 

          25       representative.  Well, I agree they're 




 


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           2       representative, but they're not elected.  They're 

           3       appointed by the Borough President and if I have 

           4       an interest in community affairs and I send in a 

           5       resume that I've been in a civic or I've been in 

           6       the schools or whatever, then I might likely get 

           7       on it.  I think it's representative, but it's not 

           8       directly elected representation.  And then, the 

           9       PEP, I understand allows only three minutes to 

          10       talk.  The school boards usually have a lot of 

          11       latitude unless they have a topic that everyone 

          12       wants to talk on.  I can talk at a school board 

          13       meeting for more then two or three minutes, but I 

          14       understand time limits, obviously.

          15                    So, I just want to talk about the 

          16       budget.  Please don't even thing about letting 

          17       people vote on the budget.  Parents get out voted 

          18       by people that don't have children in the school 

          19       and you know anyone else in the country, they 

          20       cannot vote to build new schools because the 

          21       property owners that don't have kids are not 

          22       going to approve the funds for that kind of 

          23       thing.  So please, that's my --

          24                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          25       very much.  You came very close to keeping it to 




 


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           2       within five minutes.  We appreciate it.  Do we 

           3       have any questions.  Mr. Levin and then 

           4       Mr. Clayton. 

           5                    MR. LEVIN:   Thank you Marge, very 

           6       much for the practical aspects of your testimony.  

           7       I was just wondering in looking at the way you 

           8       must have prepared for your testimony, have you 

           9       used a computer or the internet in any of the 

          10       organizations to disseminate information or as a 

          11       form of communication? 

          12                    MS. CORRIDAN:   I established an 

          13       e-mail address for the PTA this year on Yahoo 

          14       because they have free e-mail and --

          15                    MR. LEVIN:   Not AOL, Yahoo. 

          16                    MS. CORRIDAN:   And I haven't gotten 

          17       a single e-mail and I have 2,000 kids in my 

          18       school, but, and I know the kids have computers 

          19       and I put it on every notice, but in middle 

          20       school you do have the problem that just because 

          21       you give the kid the notice doesn't mean it gets 

          22       to the parent.  So, I don't know.  I wanted to 

          23       put together a web site so I could say we'll put 

          24       news up on a page every month and I just haven't 

          25       had the time.  If somebody made it very easy for 




 


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           2       me and said if you e-mail us a wordperfect 

           3       document, we'll put it up on the web for you and 

           4       then I would give my parents a web address, that 

           5       would work.  I think that would be great. 

           6                    When I was at my primary, I made 

           7       sure we put out a newsletter every month and it 

           8       would summarize the PTA meetings and a lot of the 


           9       exec board were saying well then the people won't 

          10       come to the meetings and I'm like well some of 

          11       them can't come to the meetings, so we need to 

          12       get information to the parents.  When I send a 

          13       meeting notice now, every month, on the bottom I 

          14       put whatever news that I can think of, but a web 

          15       page would be good too. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

          17                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes.  Thank you for 

          18       your testimony today.  You mentioned something, 

          19       if there were a parent of every school in the 

          20       district on this new governance body, that would 

          21       be far too many, but possibly if you broke up the 

          22       existing school board into little mini bodies --

          23                    MS. CORRIDAN:   Oh no, I didn't mean 

          24       mini bodies.  I mean, in my district there's 

          25       maybe 28 schools.  Said there's a northern tier 




 


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           2       of eight schools, a middle tier of eight schools 

           3       and a bottom tier of eight and then each of those 

           4       tiers could send three members, so you would 

           5       still have nine on your body, but it would be 

           6       geographically representational of the district 

           7       because each section of the district would get a 

           8       certain number of members on the Central, on the 

           9       community. 

          10                    MR. CLAYTON:   Okay, thanks for the 

          11       point of clarification, but now my question is, 

          12       what would you think of the idea if a set of one 

          13       governing body for a whole entire district the 

          14       same why now central's on this kick.  They're 

          15       breaking up high schools.  This year was the 

          16       Bronx, next year is Brooklyn, we'll have 16 to 18 

          17       new high schools and they seem to think smaller 

          18       is better.  So do you think because the United 

          19       Parent Association at our last two membership 

          20       meetings have one of the the themes has been 

          21       ringing out to us is that there should be 

          22       representation from every school on any new 

          23       governance body and we thought like you did, that 

          24       would be too enormous, 32 people on a board, but 

          25       what about if you broke the governance bodies up 




 


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           2       into smaller regional, like you said, regional 


           3       governing bodies, do you think that could work?

           4                    MS. CORRIDAN:   I just, I think that 

           5       makes a lot of extra work --

           6                    MR. CLAYTON:   And having to report 

           7       to a Borough wide sort of thing. 

           8                    MS. CORRIDAN:   I'll tell you, it 

           9       doesn't escape me that Brooklyn has almost twice 

          10       as many numbers as school districts.  Now I know 

          11       traditionally they had a lot more kids, but 

          12       Queens population has been growing, I think we 

          13       passed Brooklyn or we're close, but I don't know 

          14       about school kids, but I always thought our 

          15       district was awfully big, but I wouldn't have 

          16       multiple boards in one district because I think 

          17       you want the Superintendent at the meeting and I 


          18       think that you want to be able at one time at one 

          19       meeting talk about issues.  It amazes me that 

          20       there's a lot of difference from one district to 

          21       another as far as what curriculums are being 

          22       taught and what initiatives are being used and 

          23       what partnerships are being used. 

          24                    I mean in our district now, all the 

          25       middle schools have the America's Choice 




 


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           2       curriculum model, whatever, and so it's good to 

           3       be able to go to a meeting and say, oh this is 

           4       what it is and this is .." And I don't see the 

           5       point of fragmenting.  I'd like --  I live in 

           6       kind of the middle of the district.  I don't want 

           7       to just talk to people in the middle of the 

           8       district, I want to talk to people from the north 

           9       and people from the south and find out what 

          10       they're doing in their schools and what works or 

          11       doesn't work and so.  If you wanted to make the 

          12       district smaller so that it was more manageable 

          13       for the District Office, but I don't know if 

          14       that's necessary. 

          15                    MR. CLAYTON:   No, I was just trying 

          16       to think outside of the lines, somewhat of the 

          17       districts because we don't know if they're even 

          18       going to be around, the district lines.  You know 

          19       there's talk that they may be reconfigured. 

          20                    MS. CORRIDAN:   I'm worried of 

          21       finding people to even sit on the board.  I know 

          22       in the last school board elections I think some 

          23       districts didn't even have nine candidates, so 

          24       that was four years ago. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 




 


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           2       Rivera, but let me just make mention to the 

           3       members.  Ms. Corridan will have to pick up her 

           4       child in about, less then 10 minutes, so, please 

           5       keep your questions short.  Mr. Rivera. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   Ms. Corridan, 

           7       in your opinion, is there a difference between 

           8       the kind of person that serves as PA President, 

           9       the kind of person that serves in their parent 

          10       leadership teams, the kind of individual who 

          11       serves on the community school board?  One, is 

          12       there a difference in your observations and the 

          13       second part of my question is two, should there 

          14       be a difference particularly with the individuals 

          15       who serve on community school boards and the 

          16       other individuals that may be active either in 

          17       their school or in their community or whatever?

          18                    MS. CORRIDAN:   Well, on our school 

          19       board, we had two former PTA Presidents so, you 

          20       know, people have said to me why didn't I run and 

          21       I said I'd rather sit in the audience and agitate 

          22       them for the issues --  But, I think to be a PTA 

          23       President is an all consuming job.  There's so 

          24       many mandated meetings and just being -- In the 

          25       elementary schools, I mean, there's presidents 




 


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           2       that are in the building every day. I took the 

           3       middle school presidency this year because I knew 

           4       it wasn't going to be every single day up at the 

           5       school, but we still do things.  We do dances, we 

           6       do shows, we do things.  So, I think when you 

           7       say, you know maybe a former PTA President might 

           8       be interested in getting on to a school board. I 

           9       don't know if a current one, some of them might, 

          10       but there's, you know, how many hours are there 

          11       in a day? 

          12                    The school leadership teams, I've 

          13       seen a number of parents sit on them that don't 

          14       have too much to do with the PTA and I think in 

          15       some schools there's a perception that the PTA is 

          16       clique- ish or, you know, whatever, and so they 

          17       think a more effective way to find out about 

          18       what's going on is the school leadership team.  

          19       But of course, the PTA President sits on the 

          20       school leadership team, a lot of PTA Presidents 

          21       attend the monthly school board meetings, so 

          22       there is a lot of overlap, yeah there's probably 

          23       a difference.  There's people that say I just 

          24       want to help at my kids school, I just want to do 

          25       the fun stuff like the Santa Sale and the School 




 


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           2       Pictures and the Graduation and then there's lots 

           3       of PTA Presidents that are political, that get 

           4       out there and go to meetings and so you get 

           5       everything. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Ms. Pheffer. 

           7                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   I forgot. 

           8                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   You forgot, 

           9       okay, I want to make -- Ms. Pheffer, quickly. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Just on 

          11       your school leadership, you said that some of the 

          12       people that sit on the school leadership aren't 

          13       involved with the PA or the PTA, how are they put 

          14       there, we thought they had to be elected?

          15                    MS. CORRIDAN:   Yeah, but they, I 

          16       mean with the exec board of the PTA. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Okay, so 

          18       they are involved with the --

          19                    MS. CORRIDAN:   Usually they often 

          20       come to PTA, I'd have to say they all come to the 

          21       PTA meetings pretty much. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   The general 

          23       meeting.

          24                    MS. CORRIDAN:   Yeah, but they're 

          25       not maybe on the exec board. 





 


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           2                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Oh, okay. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I want to 

           4       acknowledge the arrival of Robin Brown, another 

           5       member of our task force.  Welcome Robin.  Thank 

           6       you very much for your testimony.  We know that 

           7       you were juggling a lot of things today, a lot of 

           8       meetings and we don't want your child to fall 

           9       through the cracks either, so thank you so much. 

          10                    MS. THOMSON:   Lu Ming Li is next.  

          11       Virginia Kee to come and provide translation but 

          12       I just want to make sure everybody understands 

          13       that Ms. Kee is just providing the translation 

          14       that this is not here testimony nor her opinion 

          15       necessarily.  Thank you. 

          16                    MS. LI:   Sorry, because my English 

          17       is not very well, so I need a translate. 

          18                    TRANSLATOR FOR MS. LI:   I am a new 

          19       immigrant parent.  I'm from the District 26.  I 

          20       think from my point of view, the school board, 

          21       there is a great deal lacking.  I believe that 

          22       the school boards have inordinate power.  Also, 

          23       they do influence the budget, they also influence 

          24       the Superintendent and they also influence the 

          25       Principals of schools and all issues of important 




 


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           2       matters in the school.  But the real function of 

           3       a school board member they have not fulfilled 

           4       their responsibility.  When a system fails in 

           5       education, they don't take responsibility.  The 

           6       Principals and the Superintendents pay special 

           7       attention to the people who are on school boards 

           8       and because of this undo influence and also 

           9       listening to school board members are they 

          10       impartial in their handling of situations.  In 

          11       fact, there is in some cases corruption.  I 

          12       believe that most school board members have 

          13       integrity and are good.  They also deserve the 

          14       parents and the community.

          15                    However the supervision of school 

          16       boards, there is some lacking.  There is 

          17       individuals who misuse their power.  In fact, 

          18       there are some school districts where the school 

          19       board members are promoting their own private 

          20       schools using their position on school boards 

          21       where they could publicize and do marketing for 

          22       their own schools.  Promoting their own school 

          23       was more students to enroll in that particular 

          24       school.  They create a lot of conflict and 

          25       problems in the school about achievements and 




 


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           2       whether or not the standards of the students are 

           3       received and they also, the Principals pay close 

           4       attention to these school board members because 

           5       they want to keep that relationship with the 

           6       school board member.  Perhaps in an 

           7       unintentionally or intentionally because of the 

           8       attention and the influence which they give to 

           9       the particular school board member, it really 

          10       influenced whatever we as parents want to do in 

          11       the community.

          12                    The school board should be a bridge 

          13       in communication to the community and also the 

          14       parents.  It depends on very much on the language 

          15       ability of the parents in that area because it 

          16       depends on the intention and commitment of the 

          17       particular school board members otherwise there 

          18       are a great deal of problems in that school board 

          19       district.  Sometimes the conflict results in the 

          20       particular school board member and the parent's 

          21       association with a great deal of controversy and 

          22       conflict.

          23                    School leadership team is a good 

          24       organization.  It involves more of the parents 

          25       and more communication with the parents.  Of 




 


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           2       course, we're not saying that school board 

           3       members don't care about parents, yes, of course, 

           4       we understand that it is not 100% perfect, the 

           5       school leadership team, but in comparing a school 

           6       board and a school leadership team, I think, the 

           7       school leadership team is much better.  

           8       Especially because of the new immigrant parents, 

           9       through the school leadership team, they've 

          10       gotten a lot of information and support.  Before 

          11       that we didn't have that.  They would send back 

          12       many memos from the school and all kinds of 

          13       directives and things like that, but there was 

          14       never any translation of this written material 

          15       and so we couldn't understand what they were 

          16       disseminating.  The school leadership team, they 

          17       translated everything for us and this 

          18       (inaudible).  So we started to understand the 

          19       system and as parents we were able to help our 

          20       own children through the directives from the 

          21       school leadership team. 

          22                        Her recommendation would be to 

          23       do away with the school boards as we have them 

          24       now because I have not prepared a written 

          25       statement, that is the end of my testimony.




 


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           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

           3       very much.  We know that your testimony was 

           4       harder to give, but very well received by all the 

           5       members of the task force and I think we 

           6       appreciate the very special effort it took for 

           7       you to inform us of your views and I think it 

           8       certainly has resonated with all of the members.  

           9       Before I ask if there are any questions -- 

          10                    TRANSLATOR:   (To Ms. Li) I said 

          11       because we understand how difficult with the 

          12       language ability, the fact that you have come 

          13       here today, have taken your own time to testify 

          14       before us, we do appreciate that. 

          15                    TRANSLATOR FOR MS. LI:   Most 

          16       parents are afraid to come but with great courage 

          17       I have appeared before you. 

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you.  

          19       Let me just implore the members of the panel in 

          20       order for us to stay on schedule and allow people 

          21       to get on with the day, we've got to keep our own 

          22       questions as brief and to the point as we 

          23       possibly can, so.  Any questions?  Let me ask 

          24       Ms. He.  Ms. Hahn, excuse me, Ms. Hahn. 

          25                    MS. HAHN:   School board 26 have 




 


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           2       very good academic record, right, and yet you are 

           3       saying that school board 26 is a less then 

           4       perfect to say the least, so in your opinion that 

           5       problem of school board 26 is that the system has 

           6       failed or the individual serving on the board to 

           7       be blamed?

           8                    TRANSLATOR:   (To Ms. Li)

           9                    TRANSLATOR FOR MS. LI:   She saying 

          10       that this is a general statement which she has.  

          11       She's not pointing out that this is the case, the 

          12       specific case.  Her example before, she felt that 

          13       there is an individual on school board 26 that 

          14       has misused power. 

          15                    MS. HAHN:   One more question, could 

          16       I ask?

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Yes, 

          18       Ms. Hahn. 

          19                    MS. HAHN:   Okay, you also said that 

          20       there's literary communication problem between 

          21       the school board members and the parents.  If, 

          22       also with that happened, if the board member 

          23       happened to be the person of the same ethnicity 

          24       speaking the same language, could that happen 

          25       even the parents, let's say the Korean or Chinese 




 


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           2       board member, they have parents who speak their 

           3       language, the same language, and yet there will 

           4       be because of their lack of interest or 

           5       dedication, there will be still communication 

           6       problems?

           7                    TRANSLATOR:   (To Ms. Li)

           8                    TRANSLATOR FOR MS. LI:   No, the 

           9       person that I am referring to is speaks our 

          10       language, in fact, there's the one individual 

          11       that is a school board member therefore as we go 

          12       up to the school board our feelings issues, our 

          13       concerns are never really directed because 

          14       someone is blocking that communication. 

          15                    MS. THOMSON:    I just wanted to say 

          16       that there are, I have knowledge, that there are 

          17       very tight reporting requirements for school 

          18       board members.  There are documents that they 

          19       have to fill out which lists their personal 

          20       assets as well as their interests in companies 

          21       and there is a very strong conflict of interest 

          22       law as well and what I'd like to do is find the 

          23       right person for you to talk to so that you could 

          24       get to the right authorities just to pass this 

          25       information on just so that someone can look at 




 


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           2       it to make sure that there's no unethical 

           3       behavior. 

           4                    TRANSLATOR:   (To Ms. Li)

           5                    MS. THOMSON:   Perhaps if you could 

           6       give us your phone number we'll make the match. 

           7                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Levin. 

           8                    MR. LEVIN:   We're honored that you 

           9       had testified today and I would just like to take 

          10       advantage of your broader perspective to ask you 

          11       whether there's anything in your own education 

          12       that you'd like to apply to our current issues?

          13                    TRANSLATOR:   (To Ms. Li.)

          14                    TRANSLATOR FOR MS. LI:   I believe 

          15       that the parents communication with education 

          16       system must be clear. The communication must have 

          17       clear and accessibly communication.  Before we 

          18       were not able to do this.  I hope that in 

          19       whatever body that you think of that the 

          20       communication with the parents must be available, 

          21       accessible to the parents.

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, once 

          23       again, we all thank you very much for your 

          24       special, very special efforts and your very 

          25       special testimony for us this morning, this 




 


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           2       afternoon.  Thank you and we thank Virginia Kee 

           3       for being the necessary bridge.

           4                    MS. THOMSON:   Reverend Charles 

           5       Norris, Sr., Executive Secretary of Southeast 

           6       Queens Clergy and then when Rev. Norris is 

           7       finished Basir Mchawi if I have that 

           8       pronunciation right will be next.  Good afternoon 

           9       Reverend. 

          10                    REV. NORRIS:   Good afternoon Mr. 

          11       Sanders, Ms. Thomson, Assembly persons, members 

          12       of the task force.  My name is Charles L. Norris, 

          13       Sr.  I'm the Pastor of a very small congregation 

          14       (inaudible) in Baptist Church in Jamaica and I 

          15       also serve as the Executive Secretary for 

          16       Southeast Queens Clergy for Community Empowerment 

          17       and as the CEO for Southeast Queens Clergy for 

          18       Political Awareness.  We have an economical 

          19       clergy organization of eighty persons.  We claim 

          20       to speak to some 250,000 people every Sunday 

          21       morning, especially when it doesn't rain.  We are 

          22       sort of active in community school board 27, 28 

          23       and 29 and we try to watch as many of those 

          24       situations that come up in the community school 

          25       problems that we can help.  I do not have chick 




 


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           2       nor child in the system, but my congregants do 

           3       have and that's my concern.

           4                    I think that this problem of school 

           5       boards should have been considered even while you 

           6       were considering changing the governance of the 

           7       schools in that some of the ideas for solutions 

           8       might have come to you and should have come 

           9       before taking away the idea that we will not have 

          10       any school boards.  It's similar to the solution 

          11       that was offered by Mayor Guilliani when he 

          12       decided to build a hospital in this borough of 

          13       200 beds that replaced a 302 bed hospital which I 

          14       think and Clair Shumann made a terrible mistake, 

          15       but then he called us together to find out how do 

          16       we solve that problem as members of the 

          17       community.  That's what I think you're attempting 

          18       to do now, since you have the problem, you're 

          19       saying to the community, come tell us how to get 

          20       past it.  Aside from the fact that Mr. Guilliani 

          21       left this city in five billion dollars of debt 

          22       and people have made him the Mayor of the Country 

          23       and yet we're afraid to mention the fact that 

          24       we're scuffling now trying to get out of it and 

          25       he left us in that.




 


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           2                    What does that have to do with 

           3       school governance?  I don't know, I thought I had 

           4       to say it.  Asking the neighborhood to replace, 

           5       find out what should replace school boards is 

           6       like saying to a parent, now that you've punished 

           7       your child and you've taken something away from 

           8       that child, go down the street and ask your 

           9       neighbor what should you give that child in place 

          10       of what you've taken away.  That's what it seems 

          11       to me and I think that's a very poor way of 

          12       approaching the problem.  And then if you take 

          13       away the school boards, you're going to take away 

          14       advocates for children. 

          15                    These boards that were set up, what 

          16       25-30 years ago, and I think then programmed to 

          17       fail because of the manner in which they had the 

          18       elections and I still don't understand how people 


          19       get elected to the school board and if you are 

          20       one who has a number of first place votes, you 

          21       can cast some or some will slide down to the 

          22       person --  I don't understand that (inaudible).  

          23       It was never a one man one vote situation and 

          24       especially at the wrong time of the year never 

          25       doing the first Tuesday in November, but always 




 


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           2       sometime in May when people, families and 

           3       children, are concerned about am I going to pass 

           4       this course and get promoted in June.  Now I have 

           5       to consider thinking about whose going to be the 

           6       members of the school board for the next two or 

           7       three years which was very bad. 

           8                        That was one of my primary 

           9       concerns.  The other thing that concerns us is 

          10       that we still don't get enough money from the 

          11       state depending on or from the amount of money 

          12       that we send to the Assembly from the city.  

          13       That's always been a problem but maybe one of 

          14       these days this State Senate will get some 

          15       religion and see that there should be equal 

          16       protection under the law and give it equally 

          17       around the state rather then how they have been 


          18       distributing it.  But, if these school boards are 

          19       really taken away, can you imagine, can you 

          20       imagine from the 28 schools just in District 29 

          21       where there are ten parents who have problems in 

          22       that school, ten in each of the schools.  Two 

          23       hundred and eighty parents going to Tweed Court 

          24       House to speak to the Superintendent or to the 

          25       Chancellor to say we have a problem.  Can you 




 


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           2       imagine, how would it ever get to any conclusion?  

           3       I doubt if very seriously.  So for that reason 

           4       it's very important that you really think 

           5       seriously of finding some way to solve the 

           6       problem of retaining the school boards and if 

           7       it's in conjunction with the, those other 

           8       portions or agencies or committees or groups that 

           9       you may have within the school itself, the school 

          10       governance group, that would be fine, but to 

          11       dismiss them as of June 30th and say that they're 

          12       finished, I think it's a great mistake.                    

          13                    Finally, the last few minutes, if I 

          14       have, it's very important that we stop, in this 

          15       borough, saying that we have provided 5,000 seats 

          16       for children in schools each year but haven't 

          17       solved the problem of lowering the number of 

          18       children in the schools because parents just have 

          19       children.  Unfortunately, they have 5,000 more 

          20       children that year, so it doesn't solve anything.  

          21       So to say you've provided as Clair Shumann has 

          22       said, 5,000 seats every year, you've got to 

          23       provide more then 5,000 each year in order to 

          24       sort to come to grips with the problem and that 

          25       has not been done.  So consequently, of course 




 


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           2       you know better then I, that our schools are over 

           3       crowded more so then any other borough in this 

           4       city.

           5                    Finally, keep the school boards.  I 

           6       say that we should do that and when we do that, 

           7       change the law that the elections will be held in 

           8       November at the same time that will give the 

           9       persons who are concerned and interested will be 

          10       out there campaigning like all of other 

          11       campaigners will do and also make it a one man 

          12       one vote election and remove that, I don't even 

          13       know what you call it.  The way their elected 

          14       now.  What is it now?  What ever it is.  Take it 

          15       away, that's not the American way.  The best 

          16       example of the American way is what we just 

          17       experienced by the person who just testified 

          18       before me and how she helped to get it over and 

          19       we should do that.  Thank you very much, that's 

          20       my testimony if there's any questions. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Reverend 

          22       Norris, first of all, thank you very much for you 

          23       testimony, your advice, your criticism, criticism 

          24       is important, and important part of the process 

          25       also.  Just one historical note, I think.  The 




 


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           2       system of proportional voting, when it was 

           3       instituted before I or anyone at this table was 

           4       in the State Legislature, was actually done 

           5       instead of direct voting because at the time it 

           6       was felt that proportional voting would actually 

           7       maximize the number of minority representatives 

           8       on school boards.

           9                    REV. NORRIS:   Big mistake. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Whether it 

          11       was right or wrong, whether it was right or 

          12       wrong.  Now, here's the kicker, here's the 

          13       kicker.  Three years ago, in 1998 or 1999, we 

          14       decided, we in the Assembly, the men and women 

          15       who are seated here, John LaVelle wasn't in the 

          16       Assembly at that time, but I know he agreed, we 

          17       decided that it was high time to make the process 

          18       of voting simpler and more direct so that people 

          19       voted --  So the people who got the most votes 

          20       were the one's who were elected to the school 

          21       boards without any calculation or formula 

          22       involved and --  We talked about that. 

          23                    They said it didn't want to allow us 

          24       to do that, but we actually passed a law and it 

          25       was signed into law by the Governor and it 




 


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           2       created a more direct form of voting whereby 

           3       every person would be able to vote for four 

           4       individuals and of the nine who would be elected 

           5       and the people who got the most votes would win.  

           6       That had to be submitted to the Justice 

           7       Department like everything else we do when it 

           8       comes to elections, elected bodies or elections 

           9       and the Justice Department rejected it.  And 

          10       their rejection for this more direct form of 

          11       voting, and by the way, the reason why we didn't 

          12       go to a totally absolute direct form of election 

          13       when you vote for all, you vote for nine people, 

          14       nine people get elected, is that we suspected 

          15       that there were problems in the Justice 

          16       Department, and in any event, after we passed the 

          17       law and we provided this more direct form of 

          18       voting, the Justice Department reviewed it and 

          19       they said no.  And the reason why they said no is 

          20       that in their opinion, not one that I agreed 

          21       with, in their opinion, that would ultimately 

          22       diminish, they thought, the level of minority 

          23       representation.

          24                    REV. NORRIS:  Whose Administration 

          25       was that?




 


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           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Clinton. 

           3                    REV. NORRIS:   Clinton. 

           4                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   So, I just, 

           5       you know what?  I knew you were going to ask that 

           6       question and you want to know something else?  I 

           7       knew you would be surprised.  In any event, --

           8                    REV. NORRIS:   I'd have to call him 

           9       on that and tell him. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   But that was 

          11       the Janet Reno Justice Department.  In any event, 

          12       I just want to --

          13                    REV. NORRIS:   She made some 

          14       mistakes too. 

          15                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   This is so.  

          16       I just want to make mention the fact that we 

          17       actually understood and as we were trying at one 

          18       time to reform the school boards and the school 

          19       board elections, we actually attempted to do a 

          20       direct form of voting and the Justice Department 

          21       said that proportional voting this complicated 

          22       means that was established thirty years ago 

          23       actually would promote and protect minority 

          24       representation more then direct voting. 

          25                    REV. NORRIS:   At this point you're 




 


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           2       not sure and I can speak to that. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Questions?  

           4       Questions?

           5                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   I just 

           6       wanted to say unless Rev. Norris changed his 

           7       location of his Church or his congregates, it 

           8       certainly isn't a small little Church in Queens. 

           9                    REV. NORRIS:   The building may be 

          10       large and it has, the corner stone has 1900's, so 

          11       it's 100 years old, but we still have a small 

          12       congregation. 

          13                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 

          14       Green. 


          15                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   Yes thank you.  

          16       First, a personal one, it's always good to see 

          17       you and always good --

          18                    REV. NORRIS:   Good to be seen at 

          19       anytime at this age. 

          20                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   Amen to that.  

          21       There's been widespread critique about the 

          22       community boards, particularly related to the 

          23       problems of crony-ism, patronage, how it's 

          24       corrupted this system and has had a negative 

          25       impact on our children that we've not put our 




 


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           2       children first.  Do you think that there, 

           3       obviously, that there's some room for improvement 

           4       and if so, what is it that we could do to protect 

           5       the system from being corrupted, if possible?

           6                    REV. NORRIS:   How much time do I 

           7       have?  No seriously.  First it needs to start 

           8       from the level of elected persons in each branch 

           9       of the government.  If they would set an example 

          10       that there would be no crony-ism in their branch 

          11       and get people who are really qualified rather 

          12       then their friends who supported them and how 

          13       much contributed to their election, it may set an 

          14       example for it to follow.  We may get that Regan 

          15       trickle down theory by that time.  So, that may 

          16       be a part of the answer.  But of course, people 

          17       want to see their friends and be kind to their 

          18       friends who helped them, you supported them, but 

          19       when it goes overboard, it gets out of hand and 

          20       of course it becomes counterproductive instead of 

          21       being productive.  But let the Mayor start.  Let 

          22       the Governor start.  Let the President start.  

          23       Let all of them start saying we're going to get 

          24       people who are qualified, not my friends or who 

          25       put me in here in this office, but qualified 




 


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           2       persons. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

           4                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes.  Thank you for 

           5       your testimony Reverend.  Since your 

           6       constituency, you reach a lot of parents and I'm 

           7       concerned and this panel is concerned with 

           8       parental involvement and I know from the pulpit 

           9       that preachers preach about the family unit, the 

          10       extended family, but is it explicit in the 

          11       message on education because like Dr. Martin 

          12       Luther King stated, education is a true path to 

          13       freedom and our empowerment.  Is education and 

          14       parental involvement a strong message from the 

          15       pulpit because we rely on these faith- based 

          16       groups as well to carry that message and I just 

          17       want to hear from you is that --

          18                    REV. NORRIS:   It's good to know you 

          19       rely on these faith-based groups to carry the 

          20       message more so then to get them elected.  If you 

          21       understand clearly what I'm saying.  But, the 

          22       message that comes from the pulpit is clear.  The 

          23       problem is that the schools do not have all 

          24       that's needed to make and to help children to 

          25       learn.  In 27, 28 and 29 you have some of the 




 


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           2       worst teachers in the system and the reason, you 

           3       probably know better then I.  And I'm sure Audrey 

           4       know, excuse me,  Mrs. Pheffer knows better then 

           5       I why they're there and once we can do that --  

           6       You see, the cycle has to begin with training 

           7       children who will become good parents and it's 

           8       taking quite a long time to get parents, children 

           9       to learn.  If you don't teach them while they're 

          10       in school they won't be good parents when they 

          11       get out of school and that's the major part of 

          12       the problem.  That the people who are parents 

          13       now, were not taught sufficiently when they were 

          14       students in school, so it makes it difficult for 

          15       them to understand why I must train my child to 

          16       go to school when they didn't learn themselves.  

          17       So, but we're trying to get the message out as 

          18       best we can. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well Rev. 

          20       Norris, we've been honored by your presence here.  

          21       We appreciate your advice and the inspiration 

          22       you've also provide us with.  We need all the 

          23       advice and all the inspiration we can get and we 

          24       got a dose (inaudible). 

          25                    REV. NORRIS:   Thank you. 




 


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           2                    MS. THOMSON:   Basir Mchawi, excuse 

           3       my pronunciation, you can correct me.                    

           4                    MR. MCHAWI:   Good afternoon to the 

           5       panel and all the attenders of these hearing.  My 

           6       name is Basir Mchawi.  I'm not from Queens, but 

           7       about two years ago, three years ago actually, I 

           8       had the responsibility of being in charge an 

           9       adult education program that dealt with sending 

          10       welfare mothers back to work on Jamaica Avenue 

          11       and Merrick Boulevard, not too far from here and 

          12       used to drive past Queens Borough Hall going back 

          13       and forth to work.  So, I know this building and 

          14       this area and know Queens as well.

          15                    The first thing I think is we have a 

          16       classic case of something that I say all the time 

          17       and have been saying for sometime now which is 

          18       what happens when the so called minority becomes 

          19       the majority?  And I think this is something that 

          20       is talked about to an extent as far as Rev. 

          21       Norris and the Justice Department in regards to 

          22       looking at minority representation when that 

          23       minority has in fact become the majority in many 

          24       of the school districts that we speak of.  But 

          25       the first thing, I think we need a little history 




 


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           2       lesson and have to go back and revisit some 

           3       things that happened even not too long ago.  1989 

           4       was the last time that any effort was really 

           5       devoted to making school board elections 

           6       successful and that was done when Dr. Richard 

           7       Green was the Chancellor.  After that time, I 

           8       think that there was a conscience effort to 

           9       strangle the school boards and I think that this 

          10       was shown in regards to the fact that no 

          11       resources were given either by the Board of 

          12       Education or the Board of Elections to support 

          13       the school board elections after 1989.  The last 

          14       school board election, as a matter of fact, 

          15       parent voters, because there is a dual system of 

          16       voting, one for citizens and one for parent 

          17       voters that the parent registration forms were 

          18       found in few if any schools and were not 

          19       distributed in few if any schools and when it 

          20       came time for the actual election no one came out 

          21       of course because no one even knew that the 

          22       election was taking place because no one, neither 

          23       the Board of Elections or the Board of Education 

          24       had spent any resources in regards to going ahead 

          25       and making sure that something would happen. So, 




 


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           2       we see lower turn out which was not the case in 

           3       1989. 

           4                    In 1989 we had an increased turn 

           5       out.  In 1989, we had for the first time in many 

           6       years, the increased election of parents and 

           7       community activists because up until that point 

           8       the issue of course was the crony-ism in those 

           9       people who wanted to go ahead and use this as a 

          10       political stepping stone.  Then in 1996, of 

          11       course, powers were taken from the school boards 

          12       and given to the Chancellor.  And then finally, 

          13       in 2002, the Legislature holds it's nose and in 

          14       an effect votes to give control of the schools to 

          15       the Mayor.  Now, no other suggested reforms that 

          16       had been suggested have ever been implemented 

          17       including using voting machines for the school 

          18       board elections, replacing the proportional 

          19       voting system and having school board elections 

          20       as part of primaries or general elections.  None 

          21       of these things were ever implemented and of 

          22       course we had a self fulfilling prophecy and the 

          23       school boards have in fact failed because we made 

          24       them fail.  We let them fail.

          25                    And even beyond that we need to go 




 


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           2       back to 1968, 1971, 1969, '69 and '71 when the 

           3       original legislation creating the school boards 

           4       as they exist was actually passed and that as we 

           5       know was an attempt to try to deflect the 

           6       community outcry that had come regarding 

           7       community control and then when we speak about 

           8       community control, we talk about 1968 and we talk 

           9       about the three demonstration districts that were 

          10       formed, Oceanhill, Brownsville, Twobridges and 

          11       I.S. 201 in East Harlem.  Now we need to 

          12       recognize that in 1968, out of this particular 

          13       struggle, we had for the first time, we had hired 

          14       black, latino and asian administrators in the 

          15       schools.  Before this particular time, there were 

          16       very rarely any people of color who became 

          17       administrators in schools and this was in fact 

          18       because of the racist Board of Examiners which 

          19       went ahead and set out certain kinds of criteria 

          20       for people becoming part of the Administration 

          21       which in many cases they could not fulfill.  So 

          22       Oceanhill, Brownsville, we need to look at in 

          23       regards to the advances that happened because of 

          24       what took place in 1968 as opposed to going ahead 

          25       and believing some of the revisionist historians 





 


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           2       who go ahead and talk about Oceanhill Brownsville 

           3       and the demonstrations were a failure.  What 

           4       happened after 1968 in regards to coming up with 

           5       this so called compromise which did not really 

           6       involve the community, that is what has failed 

           7       and that's what we actually see now. 

           8                    The other thing I think we have is 

           9       we have a problem now in that we have a confusion 

          10       about the relationship between governance and 

          11       failing schools.  Governance is not failing 

          12       schools and we need to look at whether or not 

          13       governance has much if anything to do with 

          14       whether schools succeed or fail, but there are 

          15       certain things that we do know. We know that 

          16       centralized governance has historically led to 

          17       poor school performance.  We can go back to the 

          18       days of Harvey Scribner, I think he was probably 

          19       about the last Superintendent of Schools when we 

          20       had a centralized system.  We also know that 

          21       meaningful parental involvement has always led to 

          22       substantial improvements in student performance.  

          23       All research shows this, everyone recognizes it, 

          24       yet and still we do not see it.  Parents have 

          25       come up here all day and have talked about how 




 


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           2       parents are not welcome in schools.  We have new 

           3       Chancellors and new Chancellors who are their 

           4       parent involvement people.  Where is parent 


           5       involvement in regards to the agenda of our new 

           6       school's Chancellor?  We don't know.  So if in 

           7       fact that is so, then parental involvement should 

           8       not be necessarily important to them and I think 

           9       obviously that's a contradiction.

          10                    Teachers are in classroom every day.  

          11       We need to recognize that.  School board members 

          12       are not and if in fact we want to talk about what 

          13       is taking place in schools, we have to address 

          14       where the rubber meets the road and that is in 

          15       fact in the classroom.  It is not in the board 

          16       room, it is in fact in the classroom.  Governance 

          17       is an important issue, we have to go ahead and 

          18       deal with issues of governance but it does not 

          19       necessarily mean that changed governance or 

          20       improved governance will lead to improved student 

          21       achievement.

          22                    We need to look at the very real 

          23       issues at this particular time.  High stakes 

          24       testing.  We're going ahead now and going, 

          25       creating a system in regards to high schools with 




 


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           2       regards to Regents which is something that had 

           3       failed previously and that we had dis-mandated.  

           4       The Regents competency test were in fact created 

           5       because student were not passing Regents as they 

           6       had in the past.  Now here it is, we're back 

           7       doing what had failed before and we're doing it 

           8       with no increase in resources, we're not doing 

           9       anything different.  All we're doing is going 

          10       ahead and increasing the stakes in regards to the 

          11       test that students in fact must pass. 

          12                    Also we've got the issues, clearly, 

          13       especially in a city like New York of low 

          14       performing schools where the majority of low 

          15       performing schools in the state, of course, 

          16       happen to be in New York City.  Many of these low 

          17       performing schools remain low performing schools 

          18       for many years.  The State Education Department 

          19       has no real plan or has proved no ability to get 

          20       low performing schools off of the sur list.  They 

          21       just do not necessarily know how to do it and one 

          22       of the problems they have in regards to not doing 

          23       it is they do not involve community in regards to 

          24       the planning that takes place in making schools 

          25       better, making them improve.




 


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           2                    Finally, we need a system of 

           3       governance that involves parents and community 

           4       residents in the fabric of running the schools.  

           5       It's not just enough to go ahead and have parents 

           6       welcome and have them participate in cake sales 

           7       and run, you know, make money, go ahead and buy 

           8       some computers.  They have to have a role in what 

           9       actually takes place and at this particular point 

          10       the only model that I have seen that addresses 

          11       these particular concerns is the model that has 

          12       been created by the center of law and so through 

          13       justice and (inaudible) and I at this particular 

          14       point support that model.  It is the model that 

          15       has a four tier system which looks at first the 

          16       school council on the bottom, the borough school 

          17       congresses, a borough board of education and then 

          18       a citywide board of education coordinating 

          19       council. 

          20                    And I support this particular model 

          21       because at this particular point, number one: It 

          22       is a bottom up model, it's not a top down model.  

          23       It talks about going ahead and involving people 

          24       on this school level and having that filter up, 

          25       okay, not creating something, some structure and 




 


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           2       some kind of diagram or whatever and going ahead, 

           3       moving from the top and moving down, but in the 

           4       opposite, it moves from the bottom to the top and 

           5       that if in fact we are going to create the kinds 

           6       of schools that we need to create, those that are 

           7       going to allow our children to participate in a 

           8       meaningful level in the 21st century, then it's 

           9       time for us to go ahead and begin to do some 

          10       things.

          11                    Governance, once again, is not 

          12       necessarily an instructional issue.  We need to 

          13       recognize that and as opposed to going ahead and 

          14       always, when we find a problem in regards to 

          15       school achievement that we're going to blame a 

          16       school board that --  More correctly, we have to 

          17       go ahead and blame those administrators within 

          18       the school, those teachers within the classroom, 

          19       those people at the state level who have created 

          20       expectations that at this particular point people 

          21       cannot reach because we continue to go ahead and 

          22       change the ceiling, making it higher and higher 

          23       and less achievable when the floor stays the 

          24       same.  It doesn't move at all and unless we go 

          25       ahead and deal with some resources and some 




 


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           2       people who really know about schools, we're going 

           3       to go ahead and deal with this problem 

           4       continually.  Thank you. 

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

           6       very much Mr. Mchawi.  Incidentally, just for 

           7       your edification we had a person from (inaudible) 

           8       representing the Law and Social Justice Committee 

           9       at our Tuesday hearing, right, and so we have the 

          10       full proposal before us and we're very 

          11       appreciative of that and of course very 

          12       appreciative of your testimony, your advice and 

          13       council as well.  Let me once again implore the 

          14       members to keep their questions short and crisp 

          15       and to the point so we can hear from everybody.  

          16       I see Virginia Kee. 

          17                    MS. KEE:   Hi.  Terri and Steve, may 

          18       I take the liberty of, before I ask my question, 

          19       of introducing my husband, Dr. Herbert Kee who 

          20       has just arrived.  Thank you for your very 

          21       knowledgeable testimony.  I was very interested 

          22       in the bottom up and the top down and I do 

          23       remember Dr. Richard Green and we all miss him 

          24       when he passed on.  But, isn't there a very 

          25       important relationship between the Mayor and the 




 


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           2       Chancellor, whatever happens in our school 

           3       system, if the Chancellor has the support of the 

           4       Mayor things can happen and I've seen where Mayor 

           5       pulls back from that support and we all felt the 

           6       lack of support in the school system.  Whatever 

           7       someone was trying to do, whether it be Rudy Crew 

           8       or Richard Green or anyone else like that. 

           9                    MR. MCHAWI:   Well, we need to 

          10       recognize that the last time we had a Chancellor 

          11       who was responsive to parents and community, that 

          12       was Ramon Cortinez and that he got no Mayoral 

          13       support that replacing him has been a series of 

          14       Chancellors who are insular, who want nothing to 

          15       do with parents and community on any kind of 

          16       meaningful level and fine, they're fine with the 

          17       Mayor, so once again, if in fact we say that 

          18       parents are important, that community is 

          19       important then we have to show it by what we do 

          20       and not by what we say. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 

          22       Green. 

          23                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   First of all I 

          24       want to thank you for your testimony and also 

          25       acknowledge the fact that you served as Special 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Assistant to Richard Green and also have been a 


           3       Principal and administrator in the school system 

           4       as well.  I guess the question that I have is in 

           5       looking at, because I know you look at this even 

           6       when Cortinez was Chancellor and who first 

           7       advanced this whole concept of, well he talked 

           8       about school based management, but also involving 

           9       parents in the process, if you have a bottom up 

          10       approach and it's parent centered would, are 

          11       there central roles and concerns that parents 

          12       should have in that process and I say this also 

          13       because I know you worked with the COMA Project 

          14       as well, have some understanding about that.  

          15       What do you think is or would be the essential 

          16       roles of parents in essentially in that process? 

          17                    MR. MCHAWI:   Well, I think first of 

          18       all and it has been mentioned that parents, we 

          19       need to demistify the school system for parents.  

          20       I don't think it's a matter sometimes of a lot of 

          21       training, it's just that very often there's a lot 

          22       of jargon and there's a lot of things that 

          23       parents are not on a regularly introduced to and 

          24       therefore, in many cases it becomes a somewhat 

          25       daunting task and they sometimes feel misplaced 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       when their in the same situation with teachers 

           3       and administrators who have been within the 

           4       system for many, many years.  We have to create a 


           5       situation which parents are the majority whether 

           6       we talk about school leadership teams or school 

           7       councils, that they have to be the majority, that 

           8       the meetings have to be held at a time where 

           9       parents can actually come out. 

          10                    If in fact teachers and 

          11       administrators are going to be paid, we've had 

          12       situations where there will be a meeting and 

          13       teachers or administrators will be paid at the 

          14       per session rate, $30.00 an hour, and parents are 

          15       paid a few dollars for transportation.  I mean 

          16       it's not fair, and obviously, if that's done, it 

          17       sends the message that you're not worth as much 

          18       because we're not compensating you in a similar 

          19       fashion.  Alright, so we have to create a 

          20       situation in which parents are the majority, that 

          21       we create a situation within the school where 

          22       parents have the say over budget, how money is 

          23       spent, curriculum, what is actually going to go 

          24       ahead and take place within the classroom 

          25       although we understand the tension between 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Central and the State and the school, but once 

           3       again, the rubber meets the road in the classroom 

           4       and as a former classroom teacher I used to say, 

           5       "When I close my door, what happens in my 

           6       classroom is in my classroom", and you know 

           7       that's in many cases where it needs to stay. 

           8                    So, we need to be clear that schools 

           9       have to have some say in regards to what happens 

          10       in curriculum very clearly also.  Also, hiring 

          11       and firing, evaluation, although, I mean 

          12       obviously we have to be quite cognizant of the 

          13       kinds of concerns that the Unions have and 

          14       rightfully in many cases they do have some kinds 

          15       of concerns.  But, as an example, within the C-30 

          16       process as it currently exists, it's backwards 

          17       because what happens is while the community goes 

          18       a head and has a say at the first stage, then at 

          19       the later stage the Superintendent has a say and 

          20       he goes a head, has his particular person that he 

          21       has pre-selected or whatever, no matter what the 

          22       parents say, and that that person comes out at 

          23       the top once the Superintendent is finished, no 

          24       matter what the parents really see or want.  If 

          25       in fact we had it the other way where the 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Superintendent was first in regards to doing the 

           3       initial screening and parents were last in 

           4       regards to going a head and being the final 

           5       arbiter or decision maker in regards to who was 

           6       hired, we would be in a better situation because 

           7       then we would be very, very clear in regards to 

           8       the impact and input that parents had in the 

           9       firing or hiring process. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Robin Brown. 

          11                    MS. BROWN:   Well just in terms of 

          12       the C-30, parents --  Just in terms of the C-30 

          13       as of yesterday, parents are about to be cut out 

          14       of that process.  The process will be that 

          15       Superintendents will interview the candidates, 

          16       bring them before the school leadership team and 

          17       ultimately and then go back to the 

          18       Superintendent.  He will pick the principal and 

          19       the principal will now pick the AP.  So that's 

          20       what's in the works, right now.  But you made an 

          21       interesting point talking about bottom to top in 

          22       there being some sort of authority on the school 

          23       level.  Whatever replaces the school board, would 

          24       you agree that they would need to have some sort 

          25       of budget authority and that parents be the 




 


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           2       majority of those, say case in point, where 

           3       you've looked at school leadership teams?

           4                    MR. MCHAWI:   Yes, you know, people 

           5       have talked about the Chicago model in regards to 

           6       in Chicago where schools get budgets directly and 

           7       that the parents, the school leadership counselor 

           8       team in Chicago, they go a head and make certain 

           9       decisions in regards to what is going to take 

          10       place.  Now we recognize that there is some 

          11       categorical dollars that are not going to be able 

          12       to be moved.  I mean if you've got 40 teachers or 

          13       whatever, you're not going to go a head and be 

          14       able to move that money around, but there are 

          15       discretionary dollars that people can go a head 

          16       and determine what it is that needs to happen, so 

          17       as opposed to going a head and getting X amount 

          18       of computers, you say, "Well no, at this 

          19       particular point we need more text books, so we 

          20       want to go a head and take our money from here 

          21       this area and we want to go ahead and provide our 

          22       children with more text books". 

          23                    So, there's got to be a very hands 

          24       on relationship that people have and this idea of 

          25       creating or cutting out the C-30 process, I mean, 




 



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           2       its very interesting because one of the things 

           3       that we've seen, and you know this is quite 

           4       interesting, over the last couple of years we've 

           5       had a succession of Chancellors who are not 

           6       qualified to be Chancellors, okay.  They are not 

           7       certifiable, let us say, they cannot be certified 

           8       and we've had to have waivers for them, yet and 

           9       still, these Chancellors go ahead and now their 

          10       talking about the fact that all teachers need to 

          11       be certified. I mean this is interesting but at 

          12       the same time its also a little bit hypocritical, 

          13       I think, that we're saying that we need a manager 

          14       to go ahead and run the school system as opposed 

          15       to an educator and we need to see if in fact that 

          16       this can work because up until this particular 

          17       point, it has not worked, that we've seen school 

          18       achievement under our last Chancellor, it's 

          19       worse.  Attendance was worse, you know. 

          20                    If we look at most things that we 

          21       would look at in regards to looking at school 

          22       performance and achievement, things have gotten 

          23       worse and we had someone who supposedly is a good 

          24       manager, but in regards to their education 

          25       experience and their ability to go ahead and 




 


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           2       marshall people around some kind of educational 

           3       vision, they haven't been able to do that. 

           4                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Levin. 

           5                    MR. LEVIN:   Just to pick up on that 

           6       and taking advantage of your own history and 

           7       powers of observation, have you seen any examples 

           8       of where there's been effective cooperation 

           9       coming from business in the school system?  

          10       Because much has been tried and one of the 

          11       ironies is that most business people are parents 

          12       anyhow. 

          13                    MR. MCHAWI:   Well, I think there 

          14       have been some examples.  I'm aware of several 

          15       examples where, well two things have happened.  

          16       Number one:  Businesses have made personnel 

          17       available to schools to actually come in and 

          18       teach and go ahead and teach about business and 

          19       teach about several areas of expertise that they 

          20       have.  Another thing that has happened in several 

          21       schools that I know about is that businesses have 

          22       been able to contribute, for instance, computers.  

          23       I know that in several schools there have been 

          24       computer labs that have been donated by 

          25       businesses and that this of course has been very 




 


                                                                 209

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           2       good because you've been able to get state of the 

           3       art technology in a school that otherwise may 

           4       have had a problem with that.  So I think that 


           5       these are two examples of ways in which 

           6       businesses can be directly involved and we need 

           7       very clearly all segments of our community 

           8       involved and businesses, I mean, as New York 

           9       being one of the business capitals of the world, 

          10       that if in fact you're going to have workers and 

          11       those workers are going to be skilled, where are 

          12       they going to be coming from?  They're going to 

          13       be coming from the New York City public schools 

          14       so there's got to be some kind of (inaudible) 

          15       protocol when there's got to be some kind of 

          16       investment of business in schools. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, 

          18       Mr. Mchawi we all want to thank you very much.  

          19       You were much too modest.  I'm appreciative of 

          20       Assembly member Green for letting us know the 

          21       very extensive experience you've had in the New 

          22       York City public school system and we so much 

          23       appreciate you sharing that experience and your 

          24       advice with us this afternoon. 

          25                    MR. MCHAWI:   Thank you. 




 


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           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

           3       sir. 

           4                    MS. THOMSON:   Excellent.  Meg 

           5       Baker, PTA President, P.S. 129 in College Point.                  

           6       MS. BAKER:   Hi.  Good afternoon.  I don't have 

           7       anything prepared so if I kind of go off the 

           8       beaten track, please forgive me.  I've had a 

           9       child in the public school system since 1985 and 

          10       I take great hope that these changes that have 

          11       taken place already.  The fact that gives me more 

          12       accountability, that the Board of Ed as we know 

          13       it is gone, I see great hope in that.  Okay.  But 

          14       reflecting on what people have said previous to 

          15       me really, Commissioner Klein has asked for 

          16       parent involvement, you guys are asking for 

          17       parent involvement, and as I said, I've been 

          18       involved for 17 years and really administrative 

          19       staff, public officials, whatever, you need to 

          20       treat parents with respect. 

          21                    The gentleman before me kind of 

          22       looted to it when he spoke about --  I've been on 

          23       leadership teams where the teachers not only got 

          24       their $10.00 an hour stipend, they also got their 

          25       $30.00 an hour per diem.  Okay, to even the 




 


                                                                 211

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       thought of having a teacher come to a dinner 

           3       meeting at six o'clock is outrageous and we're 

           4       all told well they have families too and they 

           5       have to go home.  But you know what, I'm going to 

           6       a meeting, I'm leaving my family to go to a 

           7       meeting, I put about 35 hours in a week as my PTA 

           8       President, okay, I don't get paid for that.  I 

           9       don't want to get paid for that, but just because 

          10       I don't have a professional title as a teacher.  

          11       I have a college degree, but I chose to stay home 

          12       with my children and become a parent advocate in 

          13       different levels, okay, and I come from a 

          14       functioning school.  I come from a functioning 

          15       district, District 25, but yet, even at that 

          16       level, and we don't have any (inaudible) and the 

          17       scandals and whatever going on, I still feel that 

          18       I am not treated as an equal and the bottom line 

          19       is, excuse me, it's kind of ironic, two of our 

          20       teachers left last year and had children for the 

          21       first time and they came back last week to show 

          22       their kids off and both of them in a heartbeat 

          23       said, "I'd rather be in the classroom".  

          24       

          25       




 


                                                                 212

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    They're now finding out as new 

           3       parents how tough it is to be a parent.  So I 

           4       kind of laugh, like we've been trying to tell you 

           5       that all along, but now you're finding out first 

           6       hand for yourself, how tough it is to be a 


           7       parent.  So we are professionals.  Okay, we are 

           8       professionals and I do resent, you know, we've 

           9       had meeting cancelled, leadership team meetings 

          10       cancelled because a teacher couldn't be there or 

          11       an administrator couldn't be there, but if I 

          12       can't make it as a PTA President, the meeting 

          13       still goes on.  What's wrong with that picture?  

          14       That's not right.  So that's also like the 

          15       gentleman before said, that's saying I'm not as 

          16       important as the teacher or the staff person, I 

          17       mean the administrator because I can't be there.  

          18       That's okay, we can still have a meeting without 

          19       me.  Okay. So that really is a big issue. 

          20                    In terms of school boards, to me, 

          21       they were too political.  I remember going to 

          22       college 25 years ago and being, trying to get 

          23       women's political action going and we were told, 

          24       point blank, stepping stone for political office, 

          25       community school boards.  You were told that wa 




 


                                                                 213

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       step one.  If you want to pursue a career in 

           3       politics, you were active in politics, go to your 

           4       school boards, okay.  And as I said, 25, we're a 

           5       functioning district, but, I've heard all kinds 

           6       of ideas.  I think the idea of Borough Boards is 

           7       good.  If you want to have parent involvement, 

           8       perhaps, like the lady ahead of me spoke about, 

           9       maybe splitting the district into regions or 

          10       whatever.  Maybe have one parent from each 

          11       region.  That's kind of on the board, but to have 

          12       every parent go would be too much.  But bottom 

          13       line is, whatever thing you do, as everyone has 

          14       spoke to before, don't just say parent 

          15       involvement and not give us a job.  I've also sat 

          16       on committees, perfect example, report card 

          17       committee and we're a functioning district, okay.  

          18       Both the teachers and the parents both said, 

          19       "Let's have the Kindergarten report card the same 

          20       as one through six".  We all said it.  Hello?  We 

          21       go back to the next meeting.  Guess what? They're 

          22       different, so why waste my time.  I wasted seven 

          23       or eight hours going to these meetings and 

          24       speaking and you do what you want to do, they do 

          25       what they want anyway.  So that, the parent is 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       very frustrated.  It's very frustrating, okay.  

           3       I've been to several of these kinds of meetings 

           4       as Terri knows, and it's for parent involvement 

           5       and yet, no offense to elected officials, 

           6       Mrs. Marshall was here before and Mr. Liu, you 

           7       have other forums to speak.  You get to have your 

           8       half hour, forty-five minutes in other forums 

           9       like this. 

          10                    We parents don't get many 

          11       opportunities, so as you said, you want to 

          12       explain why they get to speak longer, you respect 

          13       them coming here.  That's fine, but do you know 

          14       what, I should -- If I want to speak for five 

          15       hours here I should be able to speak for five 

          16       hours because this was billed as a parent 

          17       observation.  You will hear from Mrs. Marshall 

          18       and Mr. Liu in other capacities.  Like tonight, I 

          19       would get first crack at parents, but that's my 

          20       personal opinion.  Let them speak first.  You 

          21       asked for them to come, I'm here since eleven 

          22       o'clock.  Okay?  So my time is important too.  I 

          23       arranged for someone to pick up my child after 

          24       school.  Like I said, I really see hope with the 

          25       fact that all these changes going on, I really do 




 


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           2       see hope.  And I don't know how to address the 

           3       idea of getting parents more respect.  I don't 

           4       know how to deal with that and on a personal 

           5       note, you're talking before about Louie Armstrong 

           6       and what a well performing school it is and its 

           7       wonderful.  That's because you have teachers 

           8       probably in that school who don't really worry 

           9       about the contract. They're not running out the 

          10       door at 3:01. 

          11                    Okay, personal issue.  This whole 20 

          12       minute thing.  Okay, it was determined that now 

          13       we're going to put the 20 minutes back at the end 

          14       of the day until three o'clock. Okay, but guess 

          15       what?  In my school, my son is dismissed at 2:45 

          16       because they have (inaudible) dismissals because 

          17       the teachers can't stay until 3:01 to dismiss the 

          18       kids.  So where's my kid getting 20 minutes?  

          19       He's not getting it.  Okay.  The school day, by 

          20       their contract, runs from, I believe it's 8:20 

          21       now to 3:00, okay.  A period for prep, a period 

          22       for lunch.  Okay.  I come from a union family on 

          23       both sides.  Carpenters and electricians.  They 

          24       go in, they put their seven hours in.  They don't 

          25       get prep time.  They get a half hour for lunch.  




 


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           2       They clock in and they clock out. 

           3                    Teachers, I understand about unions, 

           4       but if they don't want to do it, they don't have 

           5       to do it.  We had 14 new teachers in our school 

           6       last year.  As Terri knows, we got a brand new 

           7       addition that we fought 10 years to get, 14 new 

           8       teachers.  Now we heard last year there was going 

           9       to be budget cuts, no after school program.  

          10       Three of the new teachers, brand new teachers, 

          11       approached me, they wanted on their own time, for 

          12       free, to stay after school one day a week to help 

          13       the kids.  They were told by the UFT Rep, that 

          14       was a no, no.  And these new teachers, if they 

          15       want to get off on the right foot in a school, 

          16       they better not rock the boat.  So guess what?  

          17       They didn't do it.  So whoever can do something 

          18       about the teachers contract, that has to be 

          19       addressed because if they're on their own time or 

          20       they're willing to work on their own time, why 

          21       should they be intimidated by the UFT Rep that 

          22       they can't stay after time after school.  And I 

          23       have a ton of other things to say, but I'm 

          24       getting nervous, so I better stop. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   You did fine. 




 


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           2                    MS. BAKER:   Thank you. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Do we have 

           4       any questions?  Mr. Clayton. 

           5                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes, thank you for 

           6       coming and as representing a parent organization 

           7       I agree with you of course that parents need more 

           8       respect from the system.  I gave you a case in 

           9       point.  There were two issues that the United 

          10       Parent Association brought up to the new 

          11       Administration earlier in the year.  One was that 

          12       the end of last year, June, Terri Thomson here 

          13       and a parent committee along with Robin Brown was 

          14       a part of that committee, came up with a policy 

          15       for parents to actually go into an agreement that 

          16       they would be advocates for their children.  They 

          17       will participate in the educational process and 

          18       things that the school system would do for them 

          19       and they in turn would do for their child and it 

          20       was a nice little compact that gave parents a 

          21       sense of that they were being included in the 

          22       schools. 

          23                    I mean, just the whole sense of it 

          24       was a positive good thing.  A lot of work was put 

          25       into it and I brought it up to the Chancellor 




 


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           2       that this is out there and it's been neglected.  

           3       So he told me that he would take a look at it and 

           4       get back to the United Parent Association on it.  

           5       This was two months ago.  They haven't gotten 

           6       back to us yet.  Another issue was dealing with 

           7       parents was about two months ago the federal 

           8       government said, "well, we'll give New York (I 

           9       think it was something like) 89 million dollars 

          10       because there's 15 hours that you need to make up 

          11       because of the 9/11 fiasco", so 15 more hours is 

          12       supposed to go into instruction back into the 

          13       school.  Again, the United Parent Association 

          14       told the Chancellor, if you want to make parents 

          15       feel included, why don't you give the 

          16       responsibility of those 15 hours to the parents, 

          17       to the leadership teams.  Let them decide how 

          18       their parents want to see this go into their 

          19       school because it's going to effect. 

          20                    They'll have to come after school to 

          21       pick their kids up, etc., etc.  He thought it was 

          22       a good idea, I'll get back to you.  But then the 

          23       Union came out, the UFT came out saying that they 

          24       don't want to have no part to this 15 additional 

          25       hours if they don't have say so in the money and 




 


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           2       so now it's a dead issue.  We're probably losing 

           3       money.  I don't hear no talk about these 15 

           4       additional hours going into the classroom.  So 

           5       this is just a little indignative (indignant) of 

           6       what you're talking about, the lack of respect 

           7       for parents, but I'm glad to see that you are 

           8       passionate about parent involvement. 

           9                    MS. BAKER:   Well, as I said, after 

          10       17 years, I do see hope, I really do see hope.  I 

          11       never thought I would see this day that it would 

          12       be this open and I hope by the time my fourth 

          13       grader is getting to leave the system that it 

          14       will be working.  Working better.

          15                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Levin. 

          16                    MR. LEVIN:   Thank you again for 

          17       your spirited remarks and it is very helpful.  I 

          18       wonder if there's a way to help parents who come 

          19       on to any of these organizations, including 

          20       whatever board we come up with to replace the 

          21       community school boards, to provide some sort of 

          22       training about just the functioning of a board 

          23       and actually do it not just for parents, but for 

          24       everyone including teachers and staff and 

          25       educators because there is a difference between 




 


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           2       having substantive knowledge or real interest 

           3       because we're a parent and just being able to 

           4       understand how it works because I'm taken by your 

           5       notion of getting respect.  And one way to deal 

           6       with that, and esteem, is to just make sure we 

           7       have a program that gives everybody some 

           8       instruction on how to conduct themselves in a 

           9       board. 

          10                    MS. BAKER:   Yes, I definitely agree 

          11       in terms of something about jargon, definitely 

          12       parents need just like a dictionary because the 

          13       programs change from year to year.  There's ELL, 

          14       I mean, and all these different, you know, lists 

          15       of the --

          16                    MR. LEVIN:   The acronyms. 

          17                    MS. BAKER:   Exactly, that's the 

          18       word I'm looking for and then just in terms of, 

          19       you know, and I don't think, and I think if you 

          20       set up a borough board, whatever you come up 

          21       with, you can't expect say if you have a 

          22       training, don't ask parents to like, no offense, 

          23       come to your Borough Hall.  Like for parents in 

          24       Rockaway, that's far from here, okay.  Go to the 

          25       district or whatever organization you set up, 




 


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           2       once you set it up, have all the training done at 

           3       that level.  Don't make people go to Tweed or --  

           4       I mean I've gong to trainings in Livingston 

           5       Street.  Don't make us do that because you know, 

           6       once again, it's about lack of respect because 

           7       they're usually done during the day when we have 

           8       to rush to get home --  I know it's issues about 

           9       you have to timing and scheduling.  I do 

          10       understand that, but your heading in the right 

          11       direction by even having these meetings, but 

          12       really think of all the issues, you know, like I 

          13       said, I'm really tired of going to things where 

          14       our time isn't as valuable as other people's 

          15       times. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, we want 

          17       to thank you very much and before we do, Terri. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   Thanks for being 

          19       here, for taking the time and for you honest 

          20       testimony.  You mentioned borough boards as 

          21       something you thought you would support.  What's 

          22       more important, a borough board or a local board?  

          23       Can you have just a borough board and no local 

          24       board?

          25                    MS. BAKER:   Like I said, we come 




 


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           2       from a highly functioning district.  Our board, 

           3       for the most part, has worked, but I've also gone 

           4       to community school board meetings where there's 

           5       the same four or five members that are there 

           6       every --  There are people that were elected last 

           7       time, I've never seen them and I don't go every 

           8       single month, but I should know these guys faces.  

           9       If I pass them on the street I would know them.  

          10       So, you know, it looks great on people's resume.  

          11       Oh, I was a member of the school board, but you 

          12       know, if you're not an active parent or, that 

          13       doesn't mean anything, that's just something on 

          14       their resume.  So I think borough boards in 

          15       conjunction with community people, parents and 

          16       administrators too, I think they will be more 

          17       effective only because school board people, even 

          18       the members of the school board don't have a clue 

          19       what's going on in the schools. 

          20                    With the exception of one or two 

          21       school board members in our district and we are a 

          22       functioning district, they do not come into the 

          23       schools.  They do not come into the schools.  So 

          24       I think that a borough board, it may be have 

          25       people, administrators or community people that 




 


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           2       will go into the schools and make that a 

           3       condition.  If you want to be part of this, you 

           4       know, and if you don't you get kicked off, you 

           5       know. So, that's it. 

           6                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you. 

           7                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   

           8       Ms. Reddington.

           9                    MS. REDDINGTON:   Yes, thank you 

          10       very much for your testimony.  Can I ask you how 

          11       you would, whether it be a borough board or a 

          12       local board, what is your preference, election or 

          13       appointment?

          14                    MS. BAKER:   Oh, I would say 

          15       election. I would definitely say election. 

          16                    MS. REDDINGTON:   Okay, thank you. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   We thank you 

          18       very much for your time, we know how valuable it 

          19       is and we thank you for spending it with us.  

          20       Thank you very much. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Sandra Smith. 

          22                    MS. SMITH:   Oh.  Good afternoon.  I 

          23       really wasn't expecting to testify today.  I just 

          24       wanted to come and hear what people had to say, 

          25       but I've been urged to say something.  I have a 




 


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           2       child in middle school and as far as community 


           3       school boards are concerned, they weren't as 

           4       effective as they could have been and I think 

           5       that elections should be held in November when 

           6       it's the general elections that are going on.  I 

           7       think you do need a screening process where as 

           8       people will divulge who they are and what their 

           9       intentions are.  Candidates nights are very 

          10       important.  I believe that like school leadership 

          11       teams, some seats should be set aside for 

          12       business and community people.  Teachers should 

          13       also be on the community school board and

          14       administrators because those are the people who 

          15       are working in the trenches who know and have the 

          16       pulse on what's going on in the schools.  There's 

          17       a lot of problems going on in the schools that 

          18       community school board members don't know about, 

          19       but it's important for the community, some type 

          20       of vehicle for parents to be able to come to to 

          21       talk about what their problems are and what the 

          22       issues are.  I know I usually go to community 

          23       school board meetings in the past and that's 

          24       where I can get some of my problems solved.  I 

          25       know coming from elementary school, children do 




 


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           2       not learn script very well and by the time they 

           3       get to middle school they're expected to write 

           4       everything in script and if they hadn't had 

           5       enough practice, that's difficult for them.  So I 

           6       went to the community school boards and I made 

           7       this note mentioned and within two weeks, my 

           8       son's class and all the other sixth grade classes 

           9       had script handbook writing books and that's 

          10       where parents can get things done.  So when you 

          11       have these forums where you can go to a local 

          12       meeting and have your representatives that 

          13       represent you on the educational policies and 

          14       procedures where they can help you, that's the 

          15       vehicle that parents need and they have to have. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Very good.  

          17       Very to the point, very concise.  Are you 

          18       completed or just pausing?  I'm sorry. 

          19                    MS. SMITH:   No, I'm just pausing. 

          20                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Oh, I'm so 

          21       sorry.  Well let me just say this.  So far it's 

          22       going very well. 

          23                    MS. SMITH:   Because at these local 

          24       community school boards you can, parent will be 

          25       able to voice their frustrations and let the 




 


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           2       policy makers see that certain things need to be 

           3       done.  The high school application was a fiasco 

           4       this year.  I mean, who do I talk to about that?  

           5       If I go the the community school board, they have 

           6       nothing to do with it.  If I go to the District 

           7       Superintendent, they really have nothing to do 

           8       with it.  It came out of Central.  Okay.  Same 

           9       thing with report cards procedure.  My son got a 

          10       grade in error I've been trying to get changed 

          11       since last year and I've been to the school 

          12       level, the community school board level, the 

          13       District level, I had to go all the way to the 

          14       Chancellor's meeting.  One of those meetings that 

          15       they have going throughout the city to make my 

          16       point and get that done.  But they only did it 

          17       for me, but, how many other parents had the same 

          18       problem? 

          19                    You see that's the situation where I 

          20       believe once you've, it's decided on what kind of 

          21       governing body will the local school boards be, 

          22       is they need authority and they need power and 

          23       resources to get things done.  I shouldn't have 

          24       to travel from borough to borough, go to meeting 

          25       to meeting to get a problem to be solved that 




 


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           2       could have been done.  Somebody give someone else 

           3       the access code to go into the ATS or the OSIS 

           4       system and change this grade.  I had to track 

           5       down and track down the Chancellor and his 

           6       people.  That shouldn't happen.  That should be 

           7       able to happen on a local level and there's a lot 

           8       of other issues that parents have that they 

           9       really don't know where to turn to.  So what ever 

          10       governing body that you put in place or that's 

          11       going to be put in place, needs to give parents 

          12       the opportunity to come and get some of their 

          13       problems solved that they can't get solved at the 

          14       local school level.  Thank you I think. 

          15                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Okay, I 

          16       should have waited for the thank you.  Thank you 

          17       though for your testimony and for your remarks, 

          18       for sharing with us your experiences. Do we have 

          19       any questions?

          20                    ASSEMBLYMAN RIVERA:   Just a quick 

          21       question.  You indicated in your testimony that 

          22       you would have teachers and administrators serve 

          23       on school boards.  Have you given any thought to 

          24       either having them serve on school boards in 

          25       districts where they work or should they be 




 


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           2       limited to serve on school boards outside the 

           3       district where they work or outside of the 

           4       borough where they work?  As you know, we have 

           5       experimented with this whole concept about the 


           6       make up of the school boards and including 

           7       teachers or including administrators and to what 

           8       extent they should work either in the district or 

           9       in the borough.  Have you given any thought and 

          10       what --  Better yet, what are your thoughts on 

          11       this whole issue? 

          12                    MS. SMITH:   I really haven't 

          13       thought of that.  I just thought that Principals, 

          14       teachers and administrators have a direct impact 

          15       on the children and they know some of the issues 

          16       and some of the problems that are going on in the 

          17       schools and if they were there down in the 

          18       trenches could bring this information forward to 

          19       the local community school boards, they could get 

          20       together and figure out ways to solve it because 

          21       if one Principal or teacher are having this 

          22       problem in their school, it can't be just 

          23       (inaudible) to that particular one school. 

          24                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

          25                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes, thank you for 




 


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           2       your testimony.  And I just want for a point of 

           3       clarification, you were saying, because as we 

           4       know in the school districts, it's only the 

           5       elementary and middle schools, but you said you 

           6       had a high school problem, so it is my contention 

           7       that in this newly created governing body, you 

           8       feel that the high schools should fall in the 

           9       realm of that catchment?  So, in other words, if 

          10       a high school is in District 5 geographically, 

          11       they should fall up under the governance of this 

          12       new body? 

          13                    MS. SMITH:   It could, it could, yes 

          14       because once you leave elementary and middle 

          15       schools your problems don't stop. 

          16                    MR. CLAYTON:      Right.  They 

          17       increase. 

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, we 

          19       thank you very, very much for your testimony off 

          20       the cuff and it was extemporaneous and it was 

          21       very clear, very cogent and we very much 

          22       appreciate it. 

          23                    MS. THOMSON:   Dr. Delois Blakely, 

          24       Martin Luther King Jr. High School. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   And just for 




 


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           2       the benefit of the rate of arrivers, I just want 

           3       to again indicate that we ask people to try to 

           4       confine their testimony to about five minutes to 

           5       allow us some questions and answers and allow 

           6       everybody to speak that we can possibly 

           7       accommodate.  Good afternoon. 

           8                    DR. BLAKELY:   Good afternoon.  I'm 

           9       Dr. Delois Blakely and I guess I wear many hats, 

          10       but the hat that I come before you today is 

          11       dealing with Martin Luther King High School.  I'm 

          12       a parent there and it's very appropriate to be 

          13       here in Queens because this is a multi-ethnic, 

          14       multi- cultured community.  My son comes from 

          15       West Africa, the Gambia and he's been in this 

          16       country for four years.  Martin Luther King is 

          17       basically an immigrant school.  It is a citywide 

          18       school.  Martin Luther King is a school that 

          19       carries a profound legacy of the late Martin 

          20       Luther King, Jr. Non-bodies and conflict 

          21       resolution.  If you recall, there was a shoot out 

          22       at Martin Luther King school.  As a parent before 

          23       the shoot out, I was able to sit at Martin Luther 


          24       King for six months, from 10 to 6 every day, 

          25       which became a part of my job to educate my own 




 


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           2       son and to be a part of the education of my 

           3       child.  During that time, systemic problems, I 

           4       was appalled.  I was outraged to have witnessed 

           5       what I witnessed in the public school system and 

           6       being appalled and outraged, as an educator 

           7       myself which extensive education I enjoy, 

           8       learning is an every phenomena for me, of going 

           9       to MIT, Harvard, Columbia University, a full 

          10       right scholar, and have worked with children in 

          11       youth across the city of New York for about 30 

          12       years. 

          13                    Virginia Kee is an old time 

          14       colleague dealing with Chinatown Planning Council 

          15       in the 60's and other from one community to 

          16       another and being involved with the United Nation 

          17       for the last 30 years dealing with many of the 

          18       departments at the United Nations saying that the 

          19       children have a right to be educated and in 

          20       saying that, the governance body is a very 

          21       important body.  The decision that you are making 

          22       around reform of a governance body for the Board 

          23       of Education and for the community is very, very 

          24       important.  Whoever that will serve, whatever 

          25       instrument that you will use for the good of our 




 


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           2       children, remember they have a right to be 

           3       educated and in saying that, the quality of 

           4       education they have a right to.  So we must look 

           5       at the resources of the community at large. 

           6                    It is important to include the 

           7       school community?  Yes.  But I think we must go 

           8       beyond the school community, look into the 

           9       general environment, look into the neighborhood 

          10       community to help to educate our children.  They 

          11       may not come to PTA meetings, they may not come 

          12       even into the school building to a community 

          13       planning board in the past or a community board 

          14       meeting, but they are there.  We must tap the 

          15       resources of the community that our children, to 

          16       make good citizens of tomorrow, in a changing 

          17       society which is global, then we need the best 

          18       and the brightest from every level.  From the 

          19       morality to the academe, to the culture as well 

          20       as from the recreation of the community and to 

          21       feed upon the greater resource of our community 


          22       is also the economics of our community.  So I ask 

          23       that you include all segments of the society for 

          24       the development and I thank you. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   And we thank 




 


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           2       you very, very much.  Virginia Kee. 

           3                    MS. KEY:   It's wonderful to see you 

           4       after so many years and see your involvement and 

           5       your commitment continues.  Being at a high 

           6       school, what would you recommend about school 

           7       safety since this is a very important issue for 

           8       all of us who are in education and for our young 

           9       people?  Do you have any recommendations on 

          10       procedures or anything like that regarding school 

          11       safety?

          12                    DR. BLAKELY:   I think that I talked 

          13       to Mr. Bin Tucker the first day on the job 

          14       because he's working for us, the parents and in 

          15       talking to him and the parents as the greatest 

          16       stake holders of the Board of Education.  In 

          17       talking to him and being at Martin Luther King 

          18       School, Martin Luther King is on the North corner 

          19       of the west side at 66th Street and on the South 

          20       corner is LaGuardia High School.  If you look at 

          21       the environment that is set up culturally, it is 

          22       a prisoned environment so you are really 

          23       perpetuating that behavior to the children, what 

          24       you present there.  If you look at LaGuardia, 

          25       there's music playing when you go in the lobby.  




 


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           2       Now don't tell me, children are children, 

           3       teenagers are teenagers, I don't care where they 

           4       come from, whether it's a rich family, the poor 

           5       family, the poor, the powerless, or the powerful.  

           6       Children are children. 

           7                    At the same time, you don't have 

           8       that element or that environment that the 

           9       children are dealing, so I think we need to look 

          10       in the United States and outside of the United 

          11       States for a model that we can emulate or we can 

          12       adapt and look at Texas, look at some of the 

          13       reforms that are happening in the United States.  

          14       Kentucky.  And I'm saying, look at some of the 

          15       models that do work around safety and security of 

          16       children in schools. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Cassandra.  

          18       Cassandra Mullen and then Robin. 

          19                    MS. MULLEN:   Hi, how are you? 

          20                    DR. BLAKELY:   Fine, thank you. 

          21                    MS. MULLEN:   I have a question, 

          22       just for my own edification.  You spoke a lot 

          23       about having morality and integrity and certainly 

          24       that's a big issue with the community schools 

          25       boards, the one's that are non-functioning, 




 


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           2       sometimes that issues with people who are corrupt 

           3       or so forth or so on.  How would you feel about a 

           4       higher authority, meaning an ethics commission of 

           5       some kind with a code of ethics by which these 

           6       people are made to live and regulate them much 

           7       the way -- Not regulate, but view them and view 

           8       their activities much in the same way a doctor or 

           9       a lawyer is regulated?  I mean, you can't license 

          10       them, I understand there would be licensure 

          11       issues, but certainly you could do that.  How 

          12       would you feel about that?

          13                    DR. BLAKELY:   I think that's very 

          14       important because our children must go beyond 

          15       just the social value of themselves, but to reach 

          16       into their inner strength which is beyond, which 

          17       is a part of the ethic responsibility.  But if 

          18       you look at also values, values may be a softer 

          19       term that we could use so that we don't fall into 

          20       the trap of religion or spirituality.  So values 

          21       is very important for our children. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Robin Brown. 

          23                    MS. BROWN:   I know the problems all 

          24       too well at Martin Luther King High School.  We 

          25       talked about them.  But if there was another 




 


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           2       entity between the school and Central Board to 

           3       act as a buffer, do you think that some of those 

           4       issues at the school would have been resoled 

           5       sooner or are some of the issues that are there 

           6       may not have happened if there had been something 

           7       like a school board in between Central Board and 

           8       the High School?  To have those issues resolved 

           9       sooner? 

          10                    DR. BLAKELY:   I think it's 

          11       important to have like an embellishment concept.  

          12       Now making up that in terms of a committee of 

          13       those who are able to deal with many of the 

          14       issues, for instance the retaliation of a parent 

          15       like me and that's why we have sued the Board of 

          16       Education for $100 million dollars and we're in 

          17       the U.S. Federal Court.  But what I'm saying is 

          18       that it is very important that yo deal with those 

          19       issues at that level and we've been in court for 

          20       eight months and is prosy as parents.  We're 

          21       doing it ourselves and it's about six of us. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 

          23       Green. 

          24                    ASSEMBLYMAN GREEN:   Yes, the 

          25       relationship between the High Schools and local 




 


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           2       districts, this disconnect from thirty years ago, 

           3       do you think that the High School should be 

           4       absorbed into the local districts?

           5                    DR. BLAKELY:   I think so because we 

           6       had no community to support us.  We went to 

           7       District 3 and District 3 threw up their hands at 

           8       me going to them with the problems of grievance 

           9       and they're saying Dr. Blakely we have no 

          10       jurisdiction over you, but we are in your 

          11       backyard.  I said that my child spends more hours 

          12       out of Harlem in District 3 which is in the 

          13       backyard of Lincoln Center and I'm saying you 

          14       have no jurisdiction for my complaint of the 

          15       problem for my child in your backyard?  So it's 

          16       very important that we have the districts itself 

          17       to be a part of the process of the education of 

          18       children of that district.  Yes, even if it's a 

          19       high school. 

          20                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well we want 

          21       to thank you very, very much for your testimony.  

          22       I'm reminded of the fact that some people who are 

          23       the most softest spoken individuals speak with 

          24       the greatest eloquence and I don't think that 

          25       your soft spoken presentation in any way 




 


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           2       diminished the power of your testimony.  If 

           3       anything, it probably enhanced it, so we thank 

           4       you very much.  Thank you for all of your advice 

           5       and all of your wisdom. 

           6                    DR. BLAKELY:   And thank you for 

           7       having me to come and I do represent the poor and 

           8       the powerless parents that are not inclusive.  

           9       Thank you. 

          10                    MS. THOMSON:   Our next and last 

          11       speaker for the afternoon is Debra Jackson, 

          12       District 29 School Leadership Team.  At six 

          13       o'clock for additional testimony. 

          14                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Just for the 

          15       edification of the members, there was a request 

          16       that we, that the task force members have a brief 

          17       meeting at the conclusion of this part of the 

          18       testimony and then we will resume with the public 

          19       hearing at six o'clock, but there will be at the 

          20       conclusion of this witness about a fifteen minute 

          21       meeting so we can help coordinate, better 

          22       coordinate our own activities. 

          23                    MS. JACKSON:   Good afternoon.  My 

          24       name is Debra Jackson and I'm from District 29.  

          25       I've lived in Queens Village all of my life.  I 




 


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           2       was born and raised here in Jamaica and I went 

           3       through the public school system.                 

           4                    When I put my children in public 

           5       school I decided that I would step in and be a 

           6       part of their education to find very confusing.  

           7       I didn't understand the way the system was being 

           8       operated or performed.  Then I met the district 

           9       office after meeting the Principal of the school 

          10       and after meeting the school leadership team and 

          11       after going to several meetings and getting 

          12       literature that I've read a lot of.  Our 

          13       community in Queens, in District 29, has 

          14       drastically changed over the years, especially 

          15       when I was a little girl, because we knew 

          16       everybody on our block.  There wasn't a house 

          17       that or a person in my neighborhood that I 

          18       couldn't call there name out and they knew who I 

          19       was and they knew who my family was.  But now 

          20       since that's changed, the community has changed. 

          21       The school has changed. 

          22                    The, I would say like the Haitian 

          23       population in Queens and the Jamaican and all 

          24       these different cultural different backgrounds, 

          25       all of these things has changed and how in the 




 


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           2       community when we look at this how to reach out 

           3       to these people, how to communicate with these 

           4       people.  These people are coming from different 

           5       countries.  They live differently, their 

           6       religions are different, everything about them 

           7       are different and when you look at all the 

           8       changes that have been taken place and you see 

           9       where the No Child Left Behind Act has came into 

          10       play and the doctor who spoke before me, I got an 

          11       answer because I always wondered about the Board 

          12       of Education. 

          13                    I've always wondered, I sit in the 

          14       school and I can see if first hand because now 

          15       I'm in the school, see.  We sit out here, we 

          16       don't have children that go to the school system 

          17       anymore.  There's people who sit on the community 

          18       school board that doesn't have children in 

          19       school.  They're doctors, lawyers and they're, 


          20       you know, they're going on with their lives and 

          21       these people speak for us who have children that 

          22       go to school that are not getting decent lunches, 

          23       who there's things running around in the school.  

          24       I mean little rodents and things like that where 

          25       the school could be much cleaner.  The atmosphere 




 


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           2       of the public school system is horrendous.  As a 

           3       parent not knowing anything about the Board of 

           4       Education, walking in there trying to find out 

           5       information, I don't have to speak to you, I'm 

           6       the teacher, I'm the UFT, I'm the representative, 

           7       I know what's going on when you ask them a 

           8       question, they don't respond to you because they 

           9       feel why should they. 

          10                    They have the power, they have the 

          11       education.  You just sign on the dotted line, per 

          12       say, but I always say, you have to read before 

          13       you sign because I was in a situation where I 

          14       signed something and it wasn't feasible for me.  


          15       So we have to be careful as people coming in as 

          16       young people having children who have never been 

          17       through this system before, going in and they're 

          18       telling parent involvement, parent involvement.                        

          19       Because that's all I hear is parent involvement 

          20       but when you go to try to be a parent and try to 

          21       be involved you're just turned away.  You're just 

          22       turned away and you're told that well go to this 

          23       meeting, go to that meeting, you get information.  

          24       In Queens there are three schools that had been 

          25       built. 




 


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           2                    From what I understand, those three 

           3       schools are supposed to be active on 2003.  What 

           4       kind of procedure or policy has been put in place 

           5       to involve the community?  Now the school is 

           6       going to be open in September.  We have failing 

           7       students, level ones.  Things that I have never 

           8       even though the No Child Left Behind brought out 

           9       something.  I've always felt that the Board of 

          10       Education had a responsibility to provide fair 

          11       education for our children, but when you look and 

          12       see children in the eighth grade dropping out of 

          13       school and nobody calls you on the phone to say, 

          14       hey what happened to your kid?  Okay, 

          15       fortunately, now, he's a bus driver.  He took the 

          16       city test and he's able to drive the bus, but 

          17       unfortunately, they're going on strike next week.  

          18       He probably won't even have that. 

          19                    But what I'm trying to say is that 

          20       when you want to include parents, don't look at 

          21       them because I'm not wearing diamond rings on my 

          22       ears, I'm not wearing the finest clothes, I'm not 

          23       wearing the finest shoes, I'm not driving a 

          24       Mercedes Benz, so therefore, I don't want to have 

          25       anything to do with you.  What kind of system is 




 


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           2       going to be put in place so that people will 

           3       start being responsible for their actions, 

           4       especially the community school board, because if 

           5       somebody is going to speak on the behalf of me I 

           6       want that person to speak on the behalf of me 

           7       because they are concerned and they care, not 

           8       because it's going to put ten dollars in their 

           9       pocket, you know, or because they're going to get 

          10       in a position or they're going to be in a 

          11       position to wear a suit and a tie and speak for 

          12       me.  No.  I want somebody whose interested in our 

          13       children, who love our children and whose going 

          14       to be responsible.  The Board of Education is 

          15       responsible and was responsible for two or three 

          16       or more generations of failing the system.  Our 

          17       children failed.  Our children can't take tests.  

          18       They graduate from high school and never been, 

          19       were never able to take a civil service test and 

          20       pass it because they didn't know the concepts of 

          21       how to take a test and pass it. 

          22                    So who is responsible?  Who's 

          23       responsible if you --  We got a Board of 

          24       Education for the last 40 years, 50 years or 

          25       whatever.  Wasn't it their responsibility to see 




 


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           2       that these children, that these high school 

           3       student were prepared, (inaudible).  We have a 

           4       lot of children in District 29 that are now level 

           5       ones and now their parents are not going to have 

           6       anywhere --  Now I'm fortunate because I'm able 

           7       to be here from eleven o'clock until now, but 

           8       there is a whole community out there of people 

           9       who cannot be, have more concerns then I do and 

          10       they can't voice their opinion because they're 

          11       not able to be here because of working 

          12       situations.  My mother told me, she said why are 

          13       you going to all of these meetings?  What for?  

          14       What's the purpose of them?  They're getting 

          15       paid.  These people are getting paid.  Let the 

          16       teachers do their job. But when the teachers 

          17       evidently are not doing their job when you got a 

          18       half of a community with kids that are level 

          19       ones, the children are level ones.  If they were 

          20       doing such a fantastic job and doing their job, 

          21       they're getting paid a certain amount of money to 

          22       provide a certain service.  Why do we have so 

          23       many children that now require a No Child Left 

          24       Behind Act that has now going to fire 50 

          25       principals in the school system because they 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       didn't or are not able to prove or had a history, 

           3       they've had a history of failing students.  So 

           4       that history goes back for 40 something years 

           5       with the Board of Education.  Just because a No 

           6       Child Left Behind Act just started or just 

           7       existed, who was responsible 40 years ago?  These 

           8       children, these children, my children are just in 

           9       the first, second, third and fourth grade.  

          10       They're going to be taking tests this year.  I'm 

          11       constantly, what are you doing?  What are -- Show 

          12       me the procedure, how do you do this?  Show me 

          13       that you know how to do this because if you don't 

          14       know how to do it you're not going to take the 

          15       test because I don't want them in a category with 

          16       children, they're going to have a certain amount 

          17       of category where they're going to test these 

          18       children to determine whether or not these 

          19       schools will excel or decline. 

          20                    So if you have a population of 

          21       general ed children who don't even read in 

          22       Kindergarten, c'mon, there are fifth graders that 

          23       can't even read a Kindergarten book, there is 

          24       something wrong in this system.  Thank you. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well we thank 




 


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           2       you very much.  We thank you for your testimony 

           3       and for deciding to testify.  I know that you 

           4       were here for a number of hours observing the 

           5       proceedings.  Do we have any questions?  Robin 

           6       Brown. 

           7                    MS. BROWN:   I have one question.  

           8       In all of the, were you able to reach out to your 

           9       school board at all or were they able to offer 

          10       any sense of direction for you?

          11                    MS. JACKSON:   Okay, I'm a type of 

          12       person that seeks information.  I look for 

          13       information, but there's a lot of people who, 

          14       there's a lot of parents in the community that 

          15       they just take the advice of somebody else.  Say, 

          16       we have a community school board, you can go to 

          17       them and talk to them, but is that community 

          18       school board going to be responsible for --  We 

          19       can sit here and we can testify and we can say 


          20       all of these things all day long.  But is anybody 

          21       really taking it into consideration on what we're 

          22       saying?  Is anybody going to do anything about 

          23       the half a million children that are level ones 

          24       in just in 29.  I don't know how many other areas 

          25       children are failing in, but in District 29 alone 




 


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           2       there's a lot of children that have been deprived 

           3       of fair education because they have took lunch 

           4       forms for example and said that if you make a 

           5       certain amount of money you're considered low 

           6       poverty-stricken.  Well, let me tell you 

           7       something. 

           8                    My parents bought their home for 

           9       $25,000.00.  My mother's home is now worth 

          10       $250,000.00.  Okay, so when we take our lunch 

          11       forms into the school and they tell you, you know 

          12       just put down this amount because we can get more 

          13       money, a lot of that deprives the community of 

          14       resources when we do things like that because it 

          15       says if you're poverty-stricken, you're able to 

          16       get Federal funds from the Government if you're 

          17       poverty stricken.  So how many people are 

          18       actually going in there, filling out those lunch 


          19       forms and putting their actual amount.  I have 

          20       one --  I'll give you an example.  I have one 

          21       parent come to me, Oh Ms. Jackson, me and my 

          22       wife, we put down our income, well why do we 

          23       still have to pay $1.25?  I said you're making 

          24       $75,000.00 a year, what do you think and what is 

          25       $1.25?  When you have a disabled person over here 




 


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           2       that is making less then $11,000.00 a year can't 

           3       afford to pay the rent and buy food for four 

           4       children and you're talking about you and your 

           5       wife put down --  Granted now, that's federal -- 

           6       you're supposed to put down your actual amount of 

           7       what you make because this is the problem.  

           8       People are using the system and causing more pain 

           9       and suffering for the ones who really can't 

          10       afford to do the things that they're supposed to 

          11       do and that's where our children. 

          12                    And when you go to these community 

          13       people, nobody want's to talk to you because 

          14       you're disabled, you make $11,000.00 a year.  Who 

          15       want's to talk to you?  I don't have to tell you, 

          16       but people have a way of being very discrimitive 

          17       to other people only because they are not in the 

          18       same, in other words, favoritism.  I like you 

          19       because you dress the way you dress.  I like you 

          20       because you go to this Church, you go to Allen 

          21       AME or whatever.  Okay, you put $100.00 in the 

          22       pot -- They look at that too.  That's where I'm 

          23       coming from and we got to get real.  There's too 

          24       many children out here who are failing and 

          25       they're failing because the system, you, like I 




 


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           2       said, we have to reach out to those people who 

           3       are born less then fortunate then we are.  Hey 

           4       you might be making a hundred thousand dollars a 

           5       year.  You deserve everything you get.  That's 

           6       fine.  I don't have a problem with that, but 

           7       let's not forget those people down there that 

           8       these kids are not even reaching, they're in the 

           9       fifth grade and they can't even do simple 

          10       multiplication and they're in the fifth grade. 

          11                    They're going into middle school and 

          12       then by the time they get to middle school, in 

          13       the seventh and the eighth grade, they're telling 

          14       their parents, I'm not going back to school 

          15       anymore.  I can't do it.  I can't make it.  Why?  

          16       Because you have teachers in this system that, 

          17       I'm sorry to say, that just don't care.  They're 

          18       in there for the money, they live out there in 

          19       Long Island somewhere, they come over here and 

          20       make this little bit of money and they're not 

          21       worried about whether our children learn or not, 

          22       but I don't want my children, I want my children 

          23       to get a fair --  I tell my children everyday.  I 

          24       love you and do the best you can.  You don't have 

          25       to be perfect, but just do the best that you can 




 


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           2       and move on in this life because that's what it's 

           3       about.  And it's about training.  I want to say 

           4       that to you too.  We can't just --  I'm a parent, 

           5       don't just elect me because you see me.  Ask me 

           6       if I have any experience or any knowledge in what 

           7       I'm doing. 

           8                    The budget is a very serious 

           9       financial situation.  I'm not an accountant.  

          10       Let's look in these system and see if we can find 

          11       somebody who deals in accounting, maybe that will 

          12       help the system. 

          13                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I think you 

          14       have very well answered the question and I think 

          15       that the views that you shared with us were very 

          16       complete and very compelling and we thank you 

          17       very, very much. 

          18                    MS. JACKSON:   Your welcome. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you. 

          20                    MS. BROWN:   Thank you. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Now just for 

          22       the edification of everybody in the room, there's 

          23       been a request that the task force were going to 

          24       have a short meeting now.  It's now 4:15 p.m.  

          25       That meeting will probably last about 15 minutes 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       or so and then we will reconvene the hearing at 

           3       just about six o'clock.  So let me just suggest 

           4       so we can have a good exchange.  Starting with me 

           5       and moving to the right, we're going to move 

           6       over, grab a chair from over there and we'll -- 

           7                    (Recess taken at 4:15 p.m.)

           8                    (Reconvened at 6:10 p.m.)

           9                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Again and as 

          10       we have done in our other sessions we're sort of 

          11       going to begin a new, so I am going to introduce 

          12       myself, the Co-Chair.  I'm going to give you a 

          13       brief description of what this task force is all 

          14       about, how it came into existence and what our

          15       responsibilities are and then the members who are 

          16       here from the task force will introduce 

          17       themselves and then we'll get to the main event 

          18       which is your testimony. 

          19                    My name is Steve Sanders.  I am 

          20       Co-Chair of this Task Force on Community School 

          21       District Governance Reform.  I'm also Chairman of 

          22       the Assembly Education Committee.  To my left, 

          23       who you'll hear from in just a few moments,is 

          24       Terri Thomson, who is also the Co-Chair of this 

          25       task force and one of the favorite daughters of 




 


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           2       this borough of Queens.

           3                    This task force was actually 

           4       constituted on October the 31st.  Just a little 

           5       over a month ago.  The task force is origins 

           6       comes from the school governance law that was 

           7       passed by the State Legislature back in June.  As 

           8       many of you know, that law gave substantial new 

           9       authority and accountability to the Mayor of the 


          10       City of New York, to the Mayor's Chancellor and 

          11       to the Superintendents.  That law also abolishes 

          12       local community school boards, not districts, 

          13       local community school boards as of June 30th of 

          14       this coming year, the last day of the school 

          15       year.  However, the intention of the Legislature 

          16       was not to abolish community representation or 

          17       parental input.  It was to replace the school 

          18       boards with something that hopefully will be more 

          19       effective and provide even greater representation 

          20       and parental input.  Hence, the task force has 

          21       been constituted.  We are responsible for holding 

          22       at least 5 public hearings,  one in every 

          23       borough, this is the second.  We were in 

          24       Manhattan on Tuesday, we will be in the Bronx 

          25       next Thursday and then early in January we will 




 


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           2       be on Staten Island and we will conclude in 

           3       Brooklyn. 

           4                    The task force is required to 

           5       formulate a proposal with a set of 

           6       recommendations for replacing local community 

           7       school boards.  We are required to submit that 

           8       report to the State Legislature and the Governor 

           9       no later then February the 15th.  So over the 

          10       next two months this task force has a great deal 

          11       of work to do, but the most important part of our 

          12       task is to listen to the public and we have 


          13       scheduled these hearings, at least we have tried 

          14       to schedule these hearings in such a way that as 

          15       many people from all of the boroughs will have an 

          16       opportunity to testify.  Consequently we have a 

          17       day session and we have an evening session and of 

          18       course, we know that many parents and working men 

          19       and women really, their only opportunity to come 

          20       out is after the work day.  So a lot of our 

          21       hearings, a lot of testimony occurs in the 

          22       evening as it will tonight.  I'm going to now 

          23       introduce again, my Co-Chair, we will then 

          24       introduce the other members of the task force who 

          25       are here right now.  They'll introduce themselves 




 


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           2       and then I will just give you a very, very brief 

           3       outline as to how we will proceed with the 

           4       testimony.  Terri Thomson. 

           5                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you.  I just 

           6       wanted to add that this task force has a very 

           7       important responsibility ahead and that we are 

           8       taking this responsibility very seriously and as 

           9       Assemblyman Sanders said, a very important piece 

          10       of this is the voice of the public.  For those of 

          11       you who are testifying tonight, if you would 

          12       spread the word as well, that there are three 

          13       more public hearings.  One in Brooklyn, one in 

          14       the Bronx, and one in Staten Island.  The 

          15       information is out on the desk.  People can also 

          16       submit written testimony.  We'll be gathering 

          17       that, but anyone can go to any of the hearings 

          18       down the road.  You don't have to live in the 

          19       borough where the hearing is.  So I would 

          20       encourage you to spread the word.  Again, we are 

          21       serious about this.  We feel this is a very 

          22       important responsibility we have.  We're 

          23       committed to doing a very good job and working 

          24       very hard in the next few months to meet the 

          25       February 15th deadline, but to come up with a 




 


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           2       solution or a recommendation that will absolutely 

           3       improve and provide meaningful input for parents 

           4       in the community and to our education system.  So 

           5       maybe we can start at the right.  Robin are you 

           6       the first person?  Yes. 

           7                    MS. BROWN:   Yes.  Robin Brown, 

           8       Chancellor's Parent Advisory Council. 

           9                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Audrey 

          10       Pheffer, Assemblywoman representing Queens and 


          11       the Queens representative on this task force. 

          12                    MR. CLAYTON:   Earnest Clayton, 

          13       United Parents Association of New York City. 

          14                    MR. LEVIN:   Gerry Levin, retired 

          15       CEO, AOL/TimeWarner and my family and I are 

          16       personally committed to New York City public 

          17       education. 

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:   John LaVelle, 

          19       member of the Assembly representing the North 

          20       Shore of Staten Island.

          21                    MS. HAHN:   Yanghe Hahn, Executive 

          22       Vice President of Korean/American Association of 

          23       Flushing. 

          24                    MS. MULLEN:   Cassandra Mullen, I 

          25       live in Howard Beach and my daughter attends New 




 


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           2       York City public school. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Now during 

           4       the course of the evening as possible, the one or 

           5       several other task force members may arrive and 

           6       as they do, I will introduce them to you and just 

           7       one other note.  The testimony that we're asking 

           8       you to give, we are hoping that you will confine 

           9       your remarks to about five minutes.  I know it's 

          10       not a lot of time and I know that people have a 

          11       lot to say, but in order for us to hear as many 

          12       people as possible and also allow for an 

          13       appropriate amount of questions and answers, I 

          14       must ask you to try to confine your remarks to 

          15       five minutes.  One of the members of the task 

          16       force gave me this timer.  Those of you who do 

          17       some cooking may be familiar with this.  I am 

          18       not, but I resist using it, so I will, if you 

          19       have gone past your five minute time allocation I 

          20       will probably a little signal and try not to be 

          21       too rude about it, but as I say, we have to try 

          22       to confine the remarks to close to five minutes.  

          23       And one final note.

          24                    The responsibilities of this task 

          25       force are very important, but they are also very 




 


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           2       confined.  I know that a lot of people have a lot 

           3       of concerns about different aspects of the public 

           4       school system.  Our mandate and our 

           5       responsibility is limited to dealing with the 

           6       issue of governance as it relates to how we may 

           7       replace the local community school boards and 

           8       other governance issues that may effect the 

           9       school building itself, such as school leadership 

          10       teams.  So, the people who may have concerns 

          11       about a lot of different parts of the education 

          12       system, I would just suggest that you resist the 

          13       temptation to talk about that because you will be 

          14       using up your own time and it will be things that 

          15       this task force is not able to deal with in terms 

          16       of our recommendations.  So with that, Terri. 

          17                    MS. THOMSON:   Before we begin, I'd 

          18       like to acknowledge that Assemblyman Mark Whepren 

          19       is here in the audience.  Thank you for joining 

          20       us.  Our first speaker is Maria 

          21       Dapontes-Dougherty, Co-P, the Parent Teacher's 

          22       Association at P.S. 2. 

          23                    MS. DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY:   Good 

          24       evening.  My name is Maria Dapontes-Dougherty.  I 

          25       am a working parent of a seven year old son and a 




 


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           2       twelve year old daughter in the public school 

           3       system.  I am the PTA Co-President of P.S. 2 in 

           4       District 30 in Queens and Vice President of 

           5       District 30's Presidents' Council.  I have worked 

           6       with the Class Size Matters Organization and the 

           7       Alliance for Quality Education. 

           8                    I want to start out by saying that 

           9       it is very unfortunate that not enough notice was 

          10       given about these hearings.  Few parents know 

          11       about these hearings and even fewer were able to 

          12       attend, since they were scheduled so hurriedly. I 

          13       am a PTA President and did not receive official 

          14       notification of the State Task Force hearings 

          15       until Tuesday.  Should the Department of 

          16       Education not be responsible to disseminate such 

          17       vital information to PTA Presidents in a timely 

          18       manner?  It is vital that our voice be heard.  We 

          19       are the consumer. 

          20                    As parents, we are always asked to 

          21       give more time and participate more in our 

          22       children's education.  We spend hours, 

          23       volunteering with the PTA, raising money, helping 

          24       our children with homework, trying to fill in all 

          25       the gaps of their under-funded schools and 




 


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           2       overcrowded classrooms.  And then when our 

           3       schools aren't succeeding, all too often the 

           4       excuse is that the problem is a lack of parental 

           5       involvement. 

           6                    Instead, the few opportunities we 

           7       have had to participate in a substantive way, 

           8       already fare more limited than parents int he 

           9       rest of the state, continue to be whittled away.  

          10       Many parents are critical and assume that the 

          11       hearings of the State Task Force are just 

          12       window-dressing, and that the decision to simply 

          13       eliminate on of the last vestiges of parental 

          14       input into the school system has already been 

          15       made.  I strongly believe that our voice is the 

          16       key to success.  For as long as districts are 

          17       given the power to set educational policy, 

          18       curriculum and have the use of discretionary 

          19       funds, it is important that some district level 

          20       body continue to exist that can benefit from our 

          21       input.  A system this enormous must have the 

          22       ability to target areas and cannot be run by 

          23       several leaders, behind closed doors, in an 

          24       office in the Department of Education. 

          25                    First of all, the new community 




 


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           2       school boards, or councils, as some have 

           3       suggested they be called, should be composed of 

           4       members that must be parents of school age 

           5       children in the public education system.  We are 

           6       the ones with a vested interest in the system.  

           7       We are the consumer. I strongly believe that the 

           8       majority of those on these councils should be 

           9       chosen by parent leaders.  These parent leaders 

          10       could be Presidents' Councils or committees 

          11       formed from the parent members of School 

          12       Leadership Teams in the District.  These are the 

          13       people in the trenches, who have the deepest 

          14       understanding of school needs and more 

          15       importantly student's needs.  We are the 

          16       consumer. 

          17                    If political appointments are deemed 

          18       necessary, they should be a minority in the 

          19       composition.  They should be parents, advocates, 

          20       or simply others who are involved and active in 

          21       educational affairs. If elections are deemed 

          22       necessary they should be scheduled at the same 

          23       time as regular citywide elections, so as to 

          24       ensure greater turnout and participation then 

          25       presently occurs. 




 


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           2                    School leadership teams were formed 

           3       with wonderful theories in mind and yet most are 

           4       ineffective or powerless to make the changes they 

           5       deem necessary.  I know parents and staff that 

           6       have resigned from school leadership teams as a 

           7       result of the frustration they experienced, not 

           8       being able to really make a difference.  A pass 

           9       review is a waste of time, if the principal 

          10       cannot accept anything less then a five.  CEP's 

          11       in many schools are just documents created for 

          12       approval instead of guides for the improvement 

          13       and success of the school. 

          14                    Most important is the need for 

          15       communication and accessibility of vital 

          16       information related to our children's education.  

          17       This new form of governance must have the power 

          18       to require accountability from principals, 

          19       superintendents and the Chancellor.  Information 

          20       must be distributed.  The internet is a powerful 

          21       tool that should be used to disseminate 

          22       information and access parental opinion.  If 

          23       parents are given the tools they will use them 

          24       with enthusiasm, in as we have a deep commitment 

          25       to our children and their futures. 




 


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           2                    We all need to work together to 

           3       change the system for the better.  Our children 

           4       are our future.  The decisions make today will 

           5       result in their successes.  Their achievements 

           6       will continue to make our city, state and nation 

           7       great.  Thank you for your time. 

           8                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well we thank 

           9       you very much for your testimony.  You obviously 

          10       have a great deal of experience and we very much 

          11       appreciate you sharing that with us.  Let me just 

          12       see if we have any questions for you.  Mr. Levin. 

          13                    MR. LEVIN:  Thank you for a very 

          14       passionate presentation and I just want to assure 

          15       you that we consider this undertaking probably 

          16       the most important thing that we can do as a task 

          17       force but for the education governance in the 

          18       city.  I can just assure you it's not a 

          19       window-dressing. 

          20                    MS. DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY:   I didn't 

          21       think it was. 

          22                    MR. LEVIN:   Let me just ask you 

          23       because you mention and I'm interested.  

          24       Communication is really critical for parents.  

          25       The use of the internet, we've heard some 




 


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           2       testimony and discussed it.  Obviously, the real 

           3       issue is the accessibility.  What has your 

           4       experience been and how can we profit from that?

           5                    MS. DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY:   Personally 

           6       I do have a home computer and people that do have 

           7       more accessibility.  I know my children's schools 

           8       and I think most schools have internet access and 

           9       the possibility to consider is having more open 

          10       access, libraries that are in schools that are 

          11       open to families and parents maybe after school 

          12       so they would have that accessibility also.  

          13       Sending the word out that you can go to the 

          14       public library and access the internet is also 

          15       another option that you have and it's just 

          16       another way to increase communication which is 

          17       really important. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   Is it used as a tool 

          19       at all today in your school?  Does the principal 

          20       communicate with parents that way?

          21                    MS. DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY:   There are 

          22       very few schools, there are very few schools 

          23       which actually, they've created the home page, I 

          24       think if you go on New York City . Gov, it's 

          25       there but there are very few schools that have 




 


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           2       gotten to that point.  I think the biggest 

           3       problem which isn't what school governance is 

           4       about, is budgetary problems and not having 

           5       someone able to update the computer systems and 

           6       really use the means of communication that is 

           7       there.  It's the biggest flaw.  It's like every 

           8       school now has the sight and you can go to 

           9       certain schools and see PTA Presidents that were 

          10       there two years ago because basically it was, if 

          11       there's anything that's window-dressing that 

          12       would be in it.  It's created but it's never kept 

          13       up to date and that's the flaw in that really.  

          14       Certain PTA's are starting, I know my PTA, I 

          15       reached a point in time that I asked people that 

          16       do have access, because it just makes it easier 

          17       for a PTA President or President's Council 

          18       President to send an e-mail to 30 people then it 

          19       is to come home from work, feed your kids, do 

          20       homework and then have to call 30 people on the 

          21       phone, so. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Robin Brown. 

          23                    MS. BROWN:   I just have a question.  

          24       In terms of receiving information, do you receive 

          25       information from your community school board 




 


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           2       about your school, about your district or do you 

           3       have to go and do the research yourself to find 

           4       out information about the school and the 

           5       district?

           6                    MS. DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY:   I usually 

           7       get more information in a more timely manner if I 

           8       access myself to be honest with you.  I mean, we 

           9       were doing, we were getting ready for pass review 

          10       and I already had the current school report card 

          11       off the internet and they were still waiting for 

          12       the print out to come to the school.  So, it was 

          13       helpful for me to do it because if you're doing 

          14       the pass review you should have the most current 

          15       statistics.  Community school board, I can only 

          16       speak from mine.  I just think it's reached a 

          17       point in time now where it's become a lame duck 

          18       kind of situation where at least in my community 

          19       school, but I don't see the enthusiasm or, you 

          20       know.  The last meeting, I think, was a 

          21       Superintendent's report, there was no public 

          22       speaking time, no resolution and that was it.  It 

          23       was about a six minute meeting, so. 

          24                    MS. BROWN:   If you, just thinking 

          25       about the structure now, if you can do one or two 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       things to improve it, what would those one or two 

           3       things be?

           4                    MS. DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY:   Get 

           5       information out to parents because parents that 

           6       are involved will participate. I think the 

           7       greatest thing that occurred was the GROW Report 

           8       and parents were out there seeking it and we 

           9       reached a point in time in schools where they 

          10       were given of making that one particular tool 

          11       even a more powerful tool.  I was told that 

          12       eventually parents will be able to go online and 

          13       access information on their own for the GROW 

          14       report, but giving parents the tools, I mean you 

          15       get a report card and it tells you your child did 

          16       well or didn't do well on a standardize test or 

          17       doesn't do well in reading, you need to target 

          18       the different areas that educators look at, 

          19       whether its knowing the theme of a story, being 

          20       able to identify characters.  If a parent has 

          21       more tools to help their child at home, they will 

          22       and also for parents that aren't involved, 

          23       finding ways to teach them that if they spend 

          24       that little bit of extra time at home and you're 

          25       giving them the tools to help their child in 




 


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           2       whatever it is they need help in, I think the 

           3       home school relationship is very important and 

           4       you have to strengthen it. 

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

           6                    MR. CLAYTON:   Yes, thank you for 

           7       your testimony here today.  You mentioned the 

           8       school leadership teams.  Do you feel if 

           9       leadership teams were given more clout, now when 

          10       I say more clout, in other words, right now the 

          11       comprehensive education plan and the budget, all 

          12       their responsibilities are kind of outlined in a 

          13       green book, the Chancellors plan, they're not 

          14       really backed by any law or any regulation, so if 

          15       they were given clout like a regulation, 

          16       mandating their responsibilities or put into 

          17       State law that these were their responsibilities, 

          18       do you think they would be more productive, if 

          19       they were given more clout?

          20                    MS. DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY:   I think 

          21       they could be more productive.  I think the 

          22       biggest problem in leadership teams from talking 

          23       to other parents and experiencing it myself is 

          24       even though the theory is for you all to be one 

          25       team together, it still come to a point where its 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       them and us no matter how hard you try and I have 

           3       to say my team, there have come times now where 

           4       we've come together but you also have the fact 

           5       that people can make a decision and a principal 

           6       could say so because if consensus can't be 

           7       reached, a principal makes the ultimate decision, 

           8       so you reach a point in time when people that are 

           9       involved just feel defeated by that and that's 

          10       where they lose interest and walk away.  You 

          11       know, and then there are others that will stick 

          12       it out and keep and will just keep trying, so. 

          13                    MS. BROWN:   Do you think that that 

          14       would be helped if the majority of the seats were 

          15       given to parents?

          16                    MS. DAPONTES-DOUGHERTY:   I think it 

          17       makes a big difference.  I mean, I did say that 

          18       for whatever governance is replaced.  I think 

          19       there should be more parents. Having people come 

          20       together and have them agree on something and two 

          21       people don't and then the principal makes the 

          22       decision anyway, I mean I don't even like hearing 

          23       about the Core 3 in a leadership team.  I don't, 

          24       I've had teachers like sued at me like well why 

          25       should I come when you, my chapter chair and the 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       principal will make a decision.  I'm more of the 

           3       type that always go back to my parent members and 

           4       ask them questions, unless I'm stuck and have a 

           5       two minute limit, I like to reach out because I'm 

           6       representing everyone.  Everyone should have the 

           7       same balance of power and interest. 


           8                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, we 

           9       thank you very much for your testimony.  You 

          10       obviously have a lot of hands on experience over 

          11       the years and we appreciate you sharing that with 

          12       us.  By the way, during the course of the 

          13       evening, because some people do arrive late, so 

          14       for those of you who were here from the beginning 

          15       forgive me, I will be repeating periodically the 

          16       people ought to keep their remarks to about five 

          17       minutes and to keep their remarks focused on the 

          18       issue of school boards and governance that deals 

          19       with school districts and schools.  So --

          20                    MS. THOMSON:   Councilman Bur Leroy 

          21       Comry. 

          22                    COUNCILMAN COMRY:   I'm not used to 

          23       sitting to testify, but.  Good evening 

          24       distinguished panel.  I'm glad that you're here 

          25       in Queens and that you've brought this long 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       needed opportunity to the borough and to the city 

           3       to change and really look at what I think is a 

           4       real opportunity to redevelop the structure for 

           5       the Board of Education. 

           6                    My belief and just to give some of 

           7       you my background, I know most of you know, I 

           8       worked for Council member R.T. Spigner since 

           9       1982.  I was a member of community school board 

          10       29 from 1996 to 2001 and I am now Council member 

          11       for the 27th Council District in Queens.  I'm a 

          12       product of the public school system, attending 

          13       P.S. 116, I.S. 8 in Jamaica High School.  I am a 

          14       life time New Yorker.  I love this city and I 

          15       want this city to be a place where every child 

          16       just as my parents who were immigrants to this 

          17       country could have, depend on their local school 

          18       to deliver the highest quality level of education 

          19       for them where every immigrant parent cannot, who 

          20       is not aware of the system, not aware of the 

          21       nuances, not available to understand language, 

          22       not available to understand rules and rituals, 

          23       can come in and feel that the school system that 

          24       they brought their child for so that their child 

          25       can get a better education then they had, better 




 


                                                                 271

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       opportunities then they had.  That their local 

           3       school can be the strongest place in the world 

           4       for them to be.  I truly believe that the New 

           5       York City public school system, if it's working 

           6       with doors open and opportunities open and with 

           7       full participation from all segments of the 

           8       community is better then any private school, 

           9       better then any other entity if we're all working 

          10       together. 

          11                    What I think has happened over the 

          12       past twenty years is that there has been an 

          13       effort on behalf of different people to make sure 

          14       that every entity in education was not given a 

          15       full opportunity to express itself and I'm not 

          16       going to go into all of those difficulties 

          17       tonight, we're trying to look forward and I think 

          18       that we need to take this opportunity to look 

          19       forward in governance to create an opportunity 

          20       where we can resolve problems without having to 


          21       have parades at 110, oops, sorry, Tweed Building, 

          22       or City Hall, or any other entity other then 

          23       within the area that this problem occurred which 

          24       is the local school.  If there's a problem in the 

          25       local school with parents, if there's a problem 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       in the local school with discipline, curriculum, 

           3       teachers or anything else, there should be a 

           4       system in governance that can create an 

           5       opportunity for the parents who are the primary 

           6       investors in the system and the community who 

           7       want their local schools to be a focal place, an 

           8       opportunity for them to celebrate their community 

           9       instead of going out of their community to 

          10       educate their children, to be a place of 

          11       resolution. 

          12                    I would propose two ways to do that.  

          13       Number one:   You need to change the parent 

          14       leadership teams from what they are now which is 

          15       actually principal driven, even in the best of 

          16       circumstances where parent leadership teams are 

          17       given the opportunity, they are still driven by 

          18       the needs of the principal and the principal can 

          19       control it by their overriding vote as was 

          20       mentioned by the earlier speaker.  We have to 

          21       give people the real opportunity for training 

          22       within parent leadership teams to do real 

          23       assessments of the entire school and train those 

          24       so that they can do proper assessment of 

          25       curriculum, proper assessment of their teachers 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       and personnel and proper assessment of the 

           3       principal.  We need to make sure that the schools 

           4       are actually parent friendly.  It's been proven 

           5       in a citywide basis and a national basis.  The 

           6       schools that open up their doors to parents to 

           7       make sure that parents are an intrical part of 

           8       the school, not just helping out in the lunch 

           9       room or those basic things as some schools need, 

          10       but actually being a real part and a real partner 

          11       in everything in the school environment.  Those 

          12       schools do better. 

          13                    We have examples all around this 

          14       city and even in the (inaudible) impoverished 

          15       areas where we have real parent participation 

          16       that makes the school work.  We have too many 

          17       schools in this city, as you well know better 

          18       then I, that are failing and yet they still don't 

          19       let parents come in the door, they don't let 

          20       parents have an opportunity to visit classrooms 

          21       without going through checks and balances, they 

          22       don't let parents get involved in the PTA's on a 

          23       real basis because they send the notices out the 

          24       day or two before the meeting, they limit parent 

          25       participation by going through unnecessary three 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       levels of screening before you get to the 

           3       principal's office before you get to do anything 

           4       else.  We must change that atmosphere in order 

           5       for schools to work.  This system is too diverse, 

           6       there are too many schools, there are too many 

           7       cultures around the city that are changing on a 

           8       regular basis for there to be a cookie cut 

           9       approach and to say that there's one system that 

          10       can work for this entire school system. 

          11                    We must, the only way to really 

          12       address that on an individual basis is to force 

          13       the principals to create parent friendly 

          14       environments, to empower those parents in the 

          15       local schools, do real training bringing real 

          16       money into that so that they can learn what the 

          17       needs are for the school.  What the basic needs 

          18       are, what the city standard is, what the state 

          19       standard is, and what the goal is for each grade 

          20       and the parents have to be trained as a 

          21       collective, it has to be a collective effort done 

          22       by everyone on the building.  It has to be a 

          23       collective effort also outreach to the community.  

          24       We have a lot of community groups that would love 

          25       to participate in school environments.  We have, 




 


                                                                 275

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       in my district, a lot of seniors that have time 

           3       and would love to be able to participate.  Even 

           4       businesses that would like to link up to the 

           5       schools on a local level.  They don't have an 

           6       opportunity to do that now in most of the schools 

           7       and we only have a few that are really 

           8       enlightened that we need to do that.

           9                    Just governance is an opportunity to 

          10       create and break those walls and make sure that 

          11       that happens by creating instead of the parent 

          12       leadership team that we have now, a real 

          13       opportunity to empower parents by giving them 

          14       real leadership and real investment in the 

          15       building by allowing them to make assessments.  

          16       If you make assessments on a local school level, 

          17       it forces the principal to meet certain standards 

          18       that I know that this Chancellor wants them to 

          19       meet that I know that this Mayor wants them to 

          20       meet and that I know every parent in this city 

          21       would like them to meet. 

          22                    I think that on a district wide 

          23       level you would instead, personally I was in 

          24       favor of community school boards, we won't go 

          25       into that discussion tonight, we're looking to 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       change them.  We need to do on a district level a 

           3       sum compilation.  Some school districts have 40 

           4       schools, so any board with forty people on it as 

           5       you well know is not going to work on a real 

           6       level, so we have to have some type of assessment 

           7       on a district level to try and come together as a 

           8       group where we bring the nucleus of these parent 

           9       leadership teams where they can share their 

          10       issues, their ideas, their problems in a district 

          11       wide level to resolve those issues.  And also, 

          12       that board or that group or that organization, I 

          13       don't want to title it because I don't want to 

          14       give an prejudices to the word school board 

          15       anymore or to the word district organization, but 

          16       there has to be some middle management level 

          17       where all of these leadership teams can come 

          18       together independent of the school district, or 

          19       even if they eliminate school districts as I fear 

          20       they may do in one hand to save money, but we 

          21       need to make sure that there's a middle 

          22       management level where these parent leadership 

          23       teams can come together, share their experiences, 

          24       share what they do well, share what they don't do 

          25       well so that they can make sure that they can go 




 


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           2       back to their local schools that work. 

           3                    I have schools in my district that 

           4       are primarily Indian and Bangladesh.  I have 

           5       schools in my district that are primarily 

           6       hispanic.  I have schools in my district that are 

           7       primarily black and hispanic.  We have a 

           8       multitude and across this city we have schools 

           9       that have different populations that need to be 

          10       addressed, so if you could empower the parent 

          11       leadership team and create it with not just a 

          12       parent majority, but parent authority to make 

          13       sure that they can come in and work with those 

          14       necessary linkages. 

          15                        You talked about utilizing the 

          16       internet.  It's a wonderful tool if people have 

          17       internet access.  Unfortunately, a lot of the 

          18       PA's an the parent leadership teams don't have 

          19       internet access within their schools.  If they 

          20       can have within in each parent leadership office 

          21       which would be the, not a PA, and I'm talking 

          22       about combining the parent leadership to be 

          23       emanated from the PTA to create on parent 

          24       leadership body.  Instead, we right now, we have 

          25       as you know some PTA's that fight with the parent 




 


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           2       leadership team.  It's an election.  There's 

           3       money attached.  We need to also take the money 

           4       out of the equation.  People need to do this 

           5       because they really want to do this.  If there's 


           6       some compensation for time and service or travel 

           7       and expense, yes, but if we can't get into a 

           8       competition between parents as to what their real 

           9       needs and what their educational philosophy means 

          10       because I found that within our district and 

          11       other districts around the city it turns into a 

          12       competition between the PA's, PTA's and the 

          13       parent leadership team. 

          14                    So, I would hope that as you do your 

          15       deliberations around the city and talk to people 

          16       you focus on trying to work from the bottom up.  

          17       With the middle management system it really gives 

          18       the parents the authority to resolve problems.  I 

          19       know that as a Legislator, Legislator, I'm not 

          20       used to saying that, it's been almost a year, 

          21       but, as an elected official, even if there's a 

          22       problem on a school level, by the time it comes 

          23       to us we can't resolve it on a realness issue the 

          24       way the system is now.  Even if you have a good 

          25       relationship with your local principal and they'd 




 


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           2       like to resolve it, they're constricted by the 

           3       rules of the borough office or the local office 

           4       or whatever they have to do and there are so many 

           5       opportunities that we can stop this and keep it 

           6       on a local level and resolve problems by opening 

           7       doors, allowing people to talk with each other 

           8       and to allow problems to be resolved at a local 

           9       level.  

          10                    If we don't do that, if we don't 

          11       create parent friendly school and do those 

          12       necessary steps to push all entities in the 

          13       schools --  I know that the UFT would like to 

          14       keep things where there's some separation, the 

          15       CSA would like to keep things where there's some 

          16       separation, but we can no longer afford to let 

          17       those walls remain.  We have too many children 

          18       that have already been lost because of these 

          19       walls and we need to break them down. 

          20                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well 

          21       Councilman, before I see if there are any 

          22       questions, there may be one or two, I just wanted 

          23       to observe that in the almost one year that 

          24       you've been in office, I've had an opportunity to 

          25       visit your district, your constituents there a 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       couple of times.  I've had an opportunity to talk 

           3       with you and watch you talk with your 

           4       constituents and I think they consider themselves 

           5       very lucky to have you and I concur in that 

           6       assessment. 

           7                    COUNCILMAN COMRY:   Everyday is a 

           8       new day. 

           9                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   That's for 

          10       sure and I think Queens is also very lucky to 

          11       have Mr. Whepren and Ms. (Inaudible).  I think 

          12       this is a borough that's very, very well 

          13       represented and we very much appreciate you being 

          14       here and your remarks.  Do we have any questions?  

          15       Ms. Pheffer. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   I just 

          17       wanted to ask one.  Yes, Councilman.  When you 

          18       talked about your middle management, did you see 

          19       the leadership team appointing, therefore no 

          20       election, I mean are you taking away the 

          21       electoral?

          22                    COUNCILMAN COMRY:   I am very and I 

          23       know I'm going to get beat up by some school 

          24       boards, the election process doesn't work.  It 

          25       should work, but we can't make it work.  I think 




 


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           2       the parent leadership teams within themselves 

           3       should elect those persons to represent on a 

           4       middle management level.  And I'm torn behind 

           5       this because there should be some elected 

           6       representation, but I really looked at all of the 

           7       writings that I've seen from different levels.  

           8       As you know, our Education Committee and the 

           9       Council which I sit on just had a meeting 

          10       yesterday to talk about governance and most 

          11       people felt that the election were not --  While 

          12       important to have an elected representative to go 

          13       out and do the petitioning and everything else, 

          14       we don't get the parent participation that we 

          15       need.  We don't get the full community 

          16       involvement.  They don't get the opportunity to 

          17       have the airing out that they need to have within 

          18       the community so that everybody knows, so if you 

          19       focus on the people that are really involved and 

          20       the people that are really active and the people 

          21       that have shown, that have opened up their heart 

          22       and soul to the system, I think that they already 

          23       have shown you that they care and they're 

          24       concerned and those people could elect 

          25       representation from within themselves to be that 




 


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           2       middle management (inaudible). 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Ms. Brown. 

           4                    COUNCILMAN COMRY:   And I'm going to 

           5       have to run out of here because Nat Washington is 

           6       in the room. 

           7                    MS. BROWN:   In terms, what do you 

           8       think the functions of this management body 

           9       should be?

          10                    COUNCILMAN COMRY:   Primarily to 

          11       review the curriculum on a district wide level to 

          12       make sure that it's meeting all of the necessary 

          13       standards.  Primarily to share how to do the 

          14       assessments of the personnel within the building.  

          15       Primarily to share how they are dealing with 

          16       whatever fiscal matters that they deal with on a 

          17       school wide level to show how it could be dealt 

          18       with on a district level.  But I still think that 

          19       it needs to come back to local schools. We can --  

          20       I don't think --  They need to share information, 

          21       share resources and share problems and come up 

          22       with a focus way on how they can deal with 

          23       whatever nuances they have to deal with within 

          24       their local areal of concern. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Levin. 




 


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           2                    MR. LEVIN:   Councilman, I just want 

           3       to refer to something you said in your testimony.  

           4       Have you had any constructive experience where we 

           5       can involve business more in all these processes 

           6       because as we noted this afternoon, I mean most 

           7       business people are parents and should have that 

           8       same commitment.

           9                    COUNCILMAN COMRY:   Right.  There 

          10       are three different ways that we can involve 


          11       businesses.  One through the local school level 

          12       that will reach out to even the local bodega's in 

          13       their area and ask them to participate in 

          14       different things.  On the second level, do the 

          15       parents themselves that are involved in local 

          16       businesses or working for city or maybe a major 

          17       corporations.  You never know what your parent 

          18       resources are until you really ask.  A third way 

          19       is to, which I started, is create not-for-profit 

          20       opportunities where people can write proposals 

          21       targeted for specific needs that could go to 

          22       business that would be identified and that could 

          23       be something that the district offices could help 

          24       those groups do.  It's an amazing --  I had a 

          25       not-for-profit workshop earlier this year where 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       we brought in the institute for not-for-profit 

           3       management and other people to target where we 

           4       could find proposals, where we could find money 

           5       to target for specific projects. 


           6                    It could be that we have a parent 

           7       that works for a business and that, which I've 

           8       seen, and someone that is in that business in a 

           9       major corporation used to attend either a public 

          10       school or a school that actually that parent's 

          11       child may be in and would be pre, very 

          12       sympathetic to helping out a school, or we have 

          13       other businesses such as large corporations, they 

          14       give anywhere from Annenberg to you pick a 

          15       corporation everybody has some corporate charity.  

          16       Hopefully they can still have it within this 

          17       economy to help out local schools.  So it could 

          18       be on the middle management level that this 

          19       combined parent leadership team can identify 

          20       dollars to go after or the local school level 

          21       where they can identify dollars throughout --  

          22       Even if local participation from the local 

          23       stores.  I find out some schools are very good at 

          24       keeping the local stores from giving their kids 

          25       junk food even or helping out at health fairs or 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       participating.  There's a lot of different way 

           3       when people are working together to focus their 

           4       needs and if they had an opportunity, certain 

           5       school districts you know hire people to write 

           6       proposals full time and that's been very 

           7       effective in their local schools or in their 

           8       school districts. 

           9                    If we could have that within the 

          10       entire system that people could rely on, a group 

          11       of proposal writers, or at least of network that 

          12       they could refer to two or three times a year on 

          13       where to find these proposals or get people that 

          14       will be sympathetic to writing those a good 

          15       proposal it would help the system or the 

          16       individuals. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well Council 

          18       member, once again we so much appreciate you 

          19       being here to night.  It's hard to believe you've 

          20       been in the Council only for 11 months to speak 

          21       with such great command and such great intellect.  

          22       We appreciate your views. 

          23                    COUNCILMAN COMRY:   Like I said, I 

          24       have a eight year old and a five year old and I 

          25       want New York's, I don't want to send them to 




 


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           2       private school and while I may have the resources 

           3       to do it or the resources to do that, I think 

           4       it's important that we keep our kids in the 

           5       public schools and unlike, well, I won't touch 

           6       that subject, but unlike, you know, some other 

           7       people in the city that are not willing to take 

           8       the fight on.  I want everyone to buy into this.  

           9       If we don't save our children, we're doomed in 

          10       this city and then, I'm wearing a 2012 pin.  This 

          11       won't be a functionless city in 2012 unless we 

          12       save our children. 

          13                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          14       very much. 

          15                    MS. THOMSON:   I would like to 

          16       acknowledge that Evita Belmonte is here, the 

          17       Queens representative to the panel for Education 

          18       Policy.  Wave, Evita.  Evita was here with us 

          19       this afternoon too.  Lisa Booth is next, PA 

          20       Co-President of M.S. 202 in Howard Beach. 

          21                    MS. BOOTH:   Hi.  Okay.  I feel it 

          22       is necessary to speak out on the pending 

          23       elimination of the community school board.  When 

          24       words came out that the Mayor would take control 

          25       of the school, I felt this was not a good thing 




 


                                                                 287

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       for the students.  The thought of one person 

           3       making the decisions to me smacks a form of 

           4       dictatorship.  The Mayor making all these 

           5       decisions.  Now he want's to eliminate the local 

           6       school boards because he considers them an 

           7       unnecessary evil where people are empowered just 

           8       for their own good. 

           9                    There are problems in some community 

          10       school boards, but not all of them.  Some like 

          11       District 27 have worked hard with the best 

          12       interests of the students in mind.  I know for a 

          13       fact as past PTA President of P.S. 146 and now PA 

          14       Co-President of 202 that Mac Burman and his board 

          15       have done their best for the children of District 

          16       27.  Eliminating the school boards will silence 

          17       the voices of parents at District 27 as well as 

          18       all the other school boards citywide.  It is 

          19       imperative that parents have a voice in their 

          20       children's future.  If there is a problem with 

          21       some school boards, fix them don't eliminate 

          22       them.  Parents need their voices to be heard, not 

          23       someone turning a deaf ear.  Please consider my 

          24       plea to keep our community school board in tact.  

          25       As a voter and a taxpayer, I feel that the Mayor 




 


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           2       should have allowed the people to decide the 

           3       future of the Board of Education as well at the 

           4       community school boards by allowing the voters to 

           5       have a voice in this matter.  Thank you. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   And we thank 

           7       you very much.  Let me see.  Do we have any 

           8       questions? 

           9                    MS. THOMSON:   I have one question.  

          10       What are your thoughts on parents being members 

          11       of school boards that was suggested by some of 

          12       the parents?

          13                    MS. BOOTH:   Most of the school 

          14       board members are parents.  They do have children 

          15       there.  They should, they are the one's who 

          16       acknowledge themselves to help the parents in the 

          17       school. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   Right, so you think 

          19       that's important. 

          20                    MS. BOOTH:   I think it's very 

          21       important. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well thank 

          23       you very much for your testimony and thank you 

          24       very much for the obvious hard work that you've 

          25       done over the years in your own school.  Thank 




 


                                                                 289

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       you. 

           3                    MS. THOMSON:   Norma Paupaw, 

           4       District 27. 

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Let me also 

           6       explain, even though there's a list, there is a 

           7       list of speakers, there's always a certain amount 

           8       of jumping around that is inevitable.  We'll keep 

           9       as close to the list as we can, but if you find 

          10       that someone is speaking before you, there's 

          11       usually a reason.  This lady was supposed to 

          12       speak during the day and couldn't make it so 

          13       we're happy that you're here tonight. 

          14                    MS. PAUPAW:   Thank you.  I'm sick.  

          15       I didn't have a voice this morning, but good 

          16       evening.  I am Norma Paupaw representing the 

          17       position of the District Advisory Council of 

          18       District 27 with a membership of 39 schools. 

          19                    The parent members of the District 

          20       Advisory Council demand that the State 

          21       Legislature refuse to eliminate the elected 

          22       representation, accountability and local access 

          23       that we currently enjoy from the representatives 

          24       elected from within our community to the local 

          25       community school board. 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    Our parents want the same right to 

           3       participate that you provide to the rest of New 

           4       York State where local elected school boards are 

           5       in place and are not under threat of elimination.  

           6       We do not want to be forced to travel to Brooklyn 

           7       or City Hall to have our voice heard and we do 

           8       not want local decisions made by people that are 

           9       far removed from our community.  We don't want 

          10       people who do not know our needs making decisions 

          11       for us.  We are active parents in the 39 schools 

          12       in our district.  We should not be denied the 

          13       right to an elected local school boards, a right 

          14       that is the model for local school governance 

          15       throughout the United States. 

          16                    We want elected local representation 

          17       that has the power to set and approve educational 

          18       policy for the local school district including 

          19       the DCEP which is the District Comprehensive 

          20       Education Plan.  I'm very nervous.  I don't like 

          21       speaking before people. 

          22                    MS. THOMSON:   You're doing fine. 

          23                    MS. PAUPAW:   Participate in the 

          24       process for approving the Capital Plan that 

          25       builds new schools and repairs existing schools.  




 


                                                                 291

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Establish zoning policy and attendance zones for 

           3       schools.  Provide oversight into the 

           4       administration of the District, its schools and 

           5       the implementation of the District Comprehensive 

           6       Education Plan. 

           7                    In addition, we want the law to 

           8       state that the Superintendent of our District 

           9       must be located within the District so that he or 

          10       she is accessible to the schools and the 

          11       community.  We demand a voice in the public 

          12       educational system in New York City and the 

          13       opportunity to testimony, participate at local 

          14       school board meeting located in our district 

          15       schools.  Our participation should not be limited 

          16       only to the narrow issues decided within our 

          17       school building by school leadership teams.  

          18       District decisions must be made with community 

          19       representation and participation. 

          20                    Mayoral control is an experiment 

          21       that we hope succeeds.  However, Mayoral control 

          22       must not preclude or diminish our participation 

          23       in local school governance, a right provided 

          24       throughout New York State and the nation.  A 

          25       local elected community school board provides the 





 


                                                                 292

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       only check and balance in a system where nearly 

           3       all of the control vested in one person is the 

           4       Mayor.  The voters and taxpayers of the community 

           5       must have a voice in the system funded with their 

           6       tax dollars. 

           7                    At a recent meeting of the Panel for 

           8       Education Policy, when I attempted to speak 

           9       during the public speaking portion of the 

          10       meeting, Chancellor Klein closed the microphone 

          11       and ended the meeting just before I could speak.  

          12       This is not a sign that this administration is 

          13       interested in what parents have to say.  The 

          14       community school board in our district never does 

          15       this to parents.  We fear that without local 

          16       school boards information will be restricted and 

          17       the opportunity to participate will be so 

          18       controlled as to be non- existent.  Changes are 

          19       occurring too fast in this system.  Our only 

          20       protection comes from you, our State Legislators. 

          21                    Our parents must be able to attend 

          22       local school board meetings located in our 

          23       district's schools with the Community 

          24       Superintendent present to enable them to bring 

          25       forward ideas and concerns about the district, 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       it's programs and it's schools.  We must be able 

           3       to participate in the District decision-making 

           4       process. 

           5                    Do not rob the citizens of New York 

           6       City of their right to effective and powerful 

           7       representation.  It is our right and we expect 

           8       you, our elected representatives, to protect that 

           9       right. Thank you.  Norma Paupaw, Co-Chair, 

          10       District 27. 

          11                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, we 

          12       thank yo very much.  That was a well delivered, 

          13       very well delivered speech.  You did just fine 

          14       and I know that you're work on the District 

          15       Council of Presidents has given you a great deal 

          16       of experience and insight and of course we very 

          17       much appreciate you sharing that with us.  Are 

          18       there any questions?  Ms. Pheffer. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Oh yes.  

          20       Thank you.  When you talk about the 

          21       representation and you say the school board, are 

          22       you comfortable with the school board, the 

          23       elected process of nine people or would you be 

          24       comfortable with a District Council of Presidents 

          25       in that level with their responsibility?




 


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           2                    MS. PAUPAW:   No, I'm comfortable, 

           3       we are the parents, we are comfortable with the 

           4       community school board and the nine people 

           5       elected. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   And the 

           7       election process as it is?

           8                    MS. PAUPAW:   Yes and the election 

           9       process. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Robin Brown. 

          11                    MS. BROWN:   You talked about your 

          12       school board in such glowing terms.  What exactly 

          13       is within your district, how does the school 

          14       board help your district meet the needs of the 

          15       students in terms of is it done through creating 

          16       educational policy or is it done through 

          17       resolving concerns of the parents?

          18                    MS. PAUPAW:   Whenever there's a 

          19       problem there's a procedure that we must follow 

          20       and we take time and we go to the community 

          21       school board within all the schools when they 

          22       have problems and they're right there to settle 

          23       those problems for us or direct us in a path in 

          24       which the problems will be settled in a timely 

          25       and fashionable manner. 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    MS. BROWN:   And does this school 

           3       board set education --  Does the school board set 

           4       educational policies to meet the needs of 

           5       students?

           6                    MS. PAUPAW:   The school board sets 

           7       rules and regulations.  I'm not clear on the 

           8       educational process, but if it is, I'm sure they 

           9       do. This is all new to me. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Assemblyman 

          11       LaVelle. 

          12                    ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:   You indicated 

          13       that the recent Panel for Education Policy 

          14       meeting that you were cut off when you went to 

          15       the microphone and the meeting ended, I'm sorry.  

          16       At that meeting for Panel for Education Policy 

          17       where Chancellor Klein cut off the microphone, 

          18       were other parents given the opportunity to speak 

          19       before you approach the microphone?

          20                    MS. PAUPAW:   When he called, he 

          21       called three of us.  I don't remember actually 

          22       the other two peoples names, but he said in the 

          23       order in which they were called we would speak 

          24       after he gave his congratulatory remarks to a 

          25       Burt Saxon. 




 


                                                                 296

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:   So, 

           3       basically, this meeting was to --

           4                    MS. PAUPAW:   And right after he 

           5       said that, he closed the meeting and he left. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:   And this 

           7       meeting was basically to communicate with the 

           8       community. 

           9                    MS. PAUPAW:   Yes, it was a --

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN LAVELLE:   Thank you. 

          11                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well once 

          12       again we thank you so much for being here 

          13       tonight.  I'm glad your voice is better, you used 

          14       it very well.  Lew Simon, Democratic District 


          15       Leader, 23rd Assembly District. 

          16                    MR. SIMON:   Good evening.  First 

          17       I'd like to start off by thanking Terri, she's 

          18       been a great friend to the Borough of Queens, to 

          19       my great Assembly woman Audrey Pheffer, we love 

          20       you and thank you for what you're doing.  To the 

          21       panel, I thank you for giving me the opportunity 

          22       to speak tonight.  Hi.  I'm Democratic District 

          23       Leader, Lew M. Simon.  I represent the 23rd 

          24       Assembly District, Part B.  It covers the 

          25       Rockaways, Broad Channel, Howard Beach and Ozone 




 


                                                                 297

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Park.  Unfortunately, hundreds of those I 

           3       represent cannot speak.  They could not attend 

           4       due to the lack of timely notice and the unusual 

           5       requirements for registering to speak. 

           6                    I hope we are (inaudible), but as 

           7       the school board received the instructions only 

           8       one week ago tonight, effectively making getting 

           9       information all parties concerned impossible, 

          10       requirements to tax to Albany, etc., many of us 

          11       feel this was done deliberately to silence us and 

          12       effectively to disenfranchise us in the end. 

          13                    For years, I've heard community 

          14       school district, school board 27 listen to the 

          15       parents, resolve or make all possible effort to 

          16       remove educational problems.  I have seen them 

          17       address urgent problems in our schools, from day 

          18       educational issues to safety, site selection, 

          19       zoning, grievances and more.  Recently they held 

          20       a meeting at PS 223 which concerned parents about 

          21       a sexual predator.  I watched the Board deal with 

          22       the parents, the police, CBO's and school 

          23       administrators on behalf of the children that 

          24       night and countless others on occasions. 

          25                    Now, with their powers vastly 




 


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           2       curtailed, I have seen the Board struggle with 

           3       zoning in a huge, overcrowded district, first and 

           4       successfully on the mainland and now in the 

           5       Rockaways, as you know we are the city's 

           6       stepchild. 

           7                    I have seen firsthand the board's 

           8       ceaseless efforts to work with the Boro 

           9       President's Office, the School Construction 

          10       Authority and all the powers that be to get the 

          11       schools we need and educate the ignorant about 

          12       where the school be.  They never let up.  And 

          13       thank you Terri because you gave us schools in 

          14       Rockaway.  We bless you for that and thank you. 

          15                    Now, in the face of a huge housing 

          16       boom, this Board has physically counted units, 

          17       has held and will hold more public meetings, well 

          18       publicized meetings, to get parent and community 

          19       input on zoning in an effort to cut bus time and 

          20       use the schools we do have to the best advantage. 

          21                    All this is why school boards must 

          22       be kept as they are and made stronger.  School 

          23       boards bring the issues into the school 

          24       communities, answer questions, listen to the 

          25       concerns of parents and communities.  What they 




 


                                                                 299

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       can't do, they refer to those who can and keep 

           3       the parents informed about the progress or the 

           4       lack of thereof. Where will parents go after 

           5       June?  Who will be right there in the schools, on 

           6       the phones and e-mail, knowledgeable and 

           7       representable local problems because the local 

           8       people elected are elected by local people.  Can 

           9       a distant power in the Tweed Building really 

          10       replace the Boards? Clearly not.  Are borough 

          11       reps politically appointed by politicians, are 

          12       they going to be accessible and reasonable?  

          13       Clearly not.  Where will we go to be heard and 

          14       answered? 

          15                    Our Mayor has already muzzled some 

          16       of his appointees where they can't speak to the 

          17       press.  Others can be muzzled and controlled as 

          18       well.  Is this how the educational system is to 

          19       be de-politicized as per our new Mayor?  If so, 

          20       it's a joke and a disgrace. 

          21                        If our school boards leave us, 

          22       New york will be the only city in New York State 

          23       which has no elected school board.  Our parents 

          24       will be disenfranchised and less equal then any 

          25       other New York parent in the state. The phrase, 




 


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           2       "No taxation without representation" sparked a 

           3       revolution.  Have Albany and our mayor decided to 

           4       ignore history?  Are school boards perfect?  No.  

           5       Neither is the State Legislature, City council or 

           6       any other elected body.  But our school boards 

           7       did the job and were always accessible to our 

           8       people in the community.  We resent being 

           9       disenfranchised.  We want local boards kept and 

          10       enhanced.  We want them elected in November on 

          11       voting machines so we know that people were 

          12       really elected. 

          13                    Your complaints about power, excuse 

          14       me, about poor voter turnout for board elections 

          15       and that proves that it's isolated election date 

          16       in May is incomprehensible rollover in counting 

          17       system are ludicrous.  They are completely 

          18       ridiculous.  People have to worry will the 

          19       ballots disappear?  You know, people do worry 

          20       about that.  I worked on some of these school 

          21       board elections.  We worry of boxes were going to 

          22       disappear and if paper ballots were going to be 

          23       changed. 

          24                    I speak for hundreds and hundreds of 

          25       voters. We want our voting rights.  We want our 




 


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           2       civil rights.  We want our November elections.  

           3       We want equality with our sister cities and town 

           4       in the State.  We want our local school boards 

           5       and we ask you to please restore them now.  Thank 

           6       you. 

           7                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you Mr. 

           8       Simon.  Before I just ask if there are any 

           9       questions I need to observe to the task force 

          10       members that we have a ever increasing growing 

          11       list of witnesses for tonight.  I think at least 

          12       20 or 22 right now and it's growing, so as you 

          13       contemplate asking questions, be mindful of that 

          14       because we want to allow everyone to speak 

          15       tonight and get home before midnight I hope. So, 

          16       any questions? 

          17                    MR. SIMON:   No questions?  

          18       I just --

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Your 

          20       statement was quite complete. 

          21                    MR. SIMON:   Thank you.  I just want 

          22       to make one other statement that's very 

          23       important.  We have one of the best school 

          24       Superintendents in New York City, Matt Brum.  

          25       It's very, and a lot of District 27 is here.  




 


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           2       It's very difficultly to take a school 

           3       Superintendent and ask him to be at the Tweed 

           4       Building.  If God forbid we ever had another 

           5       horrendous incident like 9/11, whose going to be 

           6       there running the show?  No cell phones, no 

           7       access.  How does one get from Manhattan to his 

           8       District?  Okay, we don't live in Manhattan, we 

           9       live in Queens.  We're the furthest district, 

          10       we're closer to Long Island then Manhattan and I 

          11       would ask please that it go back and be told that 

          12       we want our school Superintendent in our district 

          13       and not in City Hall, not in the Tweed Building.  

          14       Thank you very much. 

          15                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          16       very much. 

          17                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you. 

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   And by the 

          19       way, that comment was not intended for the panel 

          20       members to muzzle anyone just be very judicious 

          21       and let's balance our needs with the needs of the 

          22       folks to talk to us. 

          23                    MS. THOMSON:   Robert Cermeli, 

          24       member of Community School Board 24. 

          25                    MR. CERMELI:   Thank you for having 




 


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           2       me today. I wasn't really going to testify 

           3       because I read the agenda and the agenda said 

           4       talk about alternate school boards and alternate 

           5       systems instead of school boards and I really 

           6       don't have any alternate system.  I believe in 

           7       the school board system and I want to talk a 

           8       little bit something about that. 

           9                    When I first ran, I was not a parent 

          10       of children in the public school system.  I did 

          11       not belong to any special interest group, but yet 

          12       I still wanted to run because I wanted to use my 

          13       work experience in trying to help the school 

          14       community.  Now when I first got into, I ran in 

          15       an election not having any support, not going on 

          16       any particular ticket, not going on any slate, 

          17       not knowing too much about it and luckily enough 

          18       I sold my experience and I came in ninth, so I 

          19       did and I was a school board member. 

          20                    My experience is in building 

          21       construction.  I immediately got into the 

          22       Committee of Maintenance and Building and nobody 

          23       wanted that committee.  I did some research and I 

          24       found out then that Queens was the most 

          25       overcrowded district in all of the city.  And 




 


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           2       then when I did further research, I found out 

           3       that my school board district, school board 24, 

           4       was the most overcrowded district in Queens.  So 

           5       I got into looking into getting schools built and 

           6       I did the research and I went to the Division of 

           7       School Facilities, that time we didn't have 

           8       school construction, alright, it's going back 

           9       about 13 years, and I said this is a piece of 

          10       cake.  We have the design finished, we have the 

          11       money in the budget and this is going to go.  

          12       First school, 1,300 children is going to be 

          13       built.  And it was not going to be built because 


          14       there was opposition.  There was community 

          15       opposition. 

          16                    People were fighting the school 

          17       board tooth and nail and I found out there were 

          18       things like economic development.  So I started 

          19       to advocate and joined and got appointed to the 

          20       Planning Board and I started to say, you know 

          21       something, you're neighborhood is dependent on 

          22       the quality of your schools.  And we fought and 

          23       we fought and we fought, we fought and in this 

          24       building we got all the parties together that 

          25       kept pointing fingers at why these schools 




 


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           2       couldn't get built and finally we got P.S. 7 

           3       built.  And then another one, another hard time, 

           4       we got I.S. 5 built. 

           5                    As I went on as a school board 

           6       member, I got involved with special ed.  I 

           7       brought special ed to the parents.  I wrote 

           8       resolutions that had to do with children not 

           9       reading up to par.  I wrote resolutions on school 

          10       safety.  What is my point?  My point is not to 

          11       say I'm a good school board member.  My point is 

          12       to say to be a school board member the important 

          13       thing is you have to be caring, you have to be 

          14       receptive to the parents, you have to understand 

          15       the needs of the community.  This is what makes a 

          16       good board member.  Whether you are a minority, 

          17       whether you're a parent, you must have those 

          18       qualities. 

          19                    Now the point is, how do you get 

          20       those qualities?  How do you get people to come 

          21       into this process and how to you try to get?  

          22       Partly by luck.  You could get people coming in 

          23       that are just caring and want to do this, but 

          24       more importantly, I think you have to increase 

          25       voter turnout by popularizing the election.  This 




 


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           2       needs the help of the government, the community 

           3       because you can't fight it.  Right now the 

           4       government is fighting community school boards 

           5       and they're belittling it and the papers are 

           6       picking it up and say why do you need it?  People 

           7       believe what they read.  But you do need school 

           8       boards because they are the catalyst for parents. 


           9                    Now, popularizing the election.  

          10       What does it do?  And I'm going to explain that.  

          11       And I want to explain that in conjunction to what 

          12       we have now.  We have a proportional 

          13       representation and I read Rob's Richie, if you 

          14       ever read this 14 page (inaudible) why we should 

          15       have proportional representation.  But I disagree 

          16       with it.  I disagree with it because I think it 

          17       could be manipulated.  People come in with 

          18       proportional representation and they have strong 

          19       candidates and they have weak candidates and when 

          20       the weak candidates drop out, they give their 

          21       votes to the candidates up and they come in as a 

          22       block, a voting block and you have one or two 

          23       people that are very politically suave and you 

          24       have other people indebted to them and you have a 

          25       voting block and you have members that are 




 


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           2       receptive to that voting block and sometimes not 

           3       to the parents. 

           4                    I think you do away with that and 

           5       you have elections on a one on one.  You let 

           6       people sell themselves to the public and let them 

           7       get elected and then in the future elections, if 

           8       they don't produce, vote them out.  But sometimes 

           9       you can't vote them out on proportional because 

          10       they come in in that block and you get weak 

          11       candidates supporting strong candidates and it's 

          12       okay for a weak candidate, but if a weak 

          13       candidate is weak because they don't represent 

          14       the parents in the community, they should not be 

          15       on the school board. 

          16                    There should be school board 

          17       accountability.  Resolutions are written month 

          18       after month after month and copies do go to 

          19       Central Board.  Now it's part of the Mayor's 

          20       Office.  But did I ever get comments back and 

          21       saying what do you intend to do with this 

          22       resolution?  How is this working?  I think you 

          23       need communication with an oversight body saying 

          24       you're coming, you, the school board are coming.  

          25       You're writing these resolutions.  I have read 




 


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           2       your resolutions, justify them to me.  Let's talk 

           3       about them.  I think that's a step forward. 

           4                    These are some of the things that I 

           5       could think of that could help the existing 

           6       school boards.  But don't do away with school 

           7       boards because you're doing away with a right 

           8       that parents should have.  Thank you. 

           9                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Before you 

          10       leave, sir. Before you leave I want to see if 

          11       there are any questions.  Just one very brief 

          12       note to you and to the audience.  I have 

          13       mentioned this earlier today when the same 

          14       subject came up.  1998 the State Legislature 

          15       actually passed a law to actually do away with 

          16       proportional voting and went to a more direct 

          17       form of voting, one that would be on the 

          18       machines, one in which you voted for the people 

          19       running.  Whoever got the most votes, the nine 

          20       people who got the most votes won.  The Justice 

          21       Department refused to approve that.  They said it 

          22       was a violation of the Voting Rights Act and 

          23       actually wrote a decision saying that 

          24       proportional voting provides the greatest 

          25       opportunity for minority representation.  So, 





 


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           2       actually we agreed with that certainly that part 

           3       of your testimony much as the rest of your 

           4       testimony as well, I suspect, but having passed 

           5       that direct voting, it was turned away by the 

           6       Justice Department.  So I just wanted to add that 

           7       historical note. 

           8                    MR. CERMELI:   I just want to say if 

           9       I read Robs Richie's report on proportional 

          10       voting whose uncle, by the way, was the spearhead 

          11       back, I think, in 1939 that actually developed 

          12       proportional voting and if you read this and 

          13       without understanding what goes on in the real 

          14       world out there, in theory, proportional voting 

          15       is very good, in theory. But in practicality, 

          16       it's being manipulated and it doesn't work and I 

          17       think that's what the Justice Department doesn't 

          18       know.  They see this kind of report, and I'll 

          19       tell you, I was almost convinced and I lived 

          20       through it.  And I lived through it 13 years, but 

          21       I'm not convinced because I see what happens. I 

          22       see blocks of people getting in and you only need 

          23       five to control what goes on in the board and I 

          24       say this is not representative of the parents. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I only raise 




 


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           2       that point because I wanted you to know that 

           3       Barbara Clarke and Audrey Pheffer and myself and 

           4       even though John LaVelle wasn't in the Assembly 

           5       at the time, this was something the Legislature 

           6       had tried to do. 

           7                    MR. CERMELI:   Thank you very much. 

           8                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you Rob.  

           9       Sharon Maurer, President, Community School Board 

          10       26. 

          11                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Excuse me.  

          12       Before you speak, I just want for the record, 

          13       because that's why I was called away, Councilman 

          14       Joe Adabo was going to be here and will turn in 

          15       written testimony, but he's sick with the flu, so 

          16       that was really it, that he'll --

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   We hope he 

          18       gets better, but we're glad he's not here.  Okay. 

          19                    MS. MAURER:   Good evening.  Thank 

          20       you for being here.  I should be used to this but 

          21       I'm an extemporaneous speaker.  I hate writing 

          22       testimony so you will probably resort that I 

          23       probably won't say and other things that I'll add 

          24       in.  First for those of you who I'm not familiar 

          25       with.  My name is Sharon Maurer.  By profession, 




 


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           2       I am a legal assistant.  I work across the 

           3       street.  And avocation, I'm a parent, a person 

           4       who is always been active and an advocate for 

           5       public education.  Four or five years, I've 

           6       worked for school district 25 in the Junior High 

           7       School.  I have a diversity of experience that 

           8       has enabled me to take a really multifaceted 

           9       approach to the different issues that come up 

          10       about education and that formulate my educational 

          11       philosophy.  Besides working in schools, I was 


          12       the PTA person who had every job from beginning 

          13       with the meeter, greeter, put the cake out on the 

          14       table, to the President of the PTA.  I also ran 

          15       an after school program for the 111th Precinct 

          16       Community Council.  So I was very familiar with 

          17       after school programs and the necessities there.  

          18       Fourteen years ago I was elected to the school 

          19       board in District 26 and for the past four years 

          20       I've been the President.  I'm also the Chair of 

          21       the Queens Council Community School Boards.  My 

          22       Vice Chair is sitting right there. 

          23                     I thought I'd take this opportunity 

          24       since community school board governance, even 

          25       though there are people who support it, I believe 




 


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           2       will end as of June 30th, to be a little franker 

           3       then is usually my wise and say some things that 

           4       I think need to be said.  Just a few months ago 

           5       school board governance and school governance of 

           6       New York City has been changed thanks to New York 

           7       State Legislators.  I believe from the date it 

           8       happened that given a year or two you are going 

           9       to find this city and it's parents and it's 

          10       communities that were very sorry that this change 

          11       took place, but I was very surprised.  It only 

          12       took a few months, a lot less then I thought.  In 

          13       a few short months we have watched the priorities 

          14       that have been set. 

          15                    Cross-cutting is the priority 

          16       because it is the priority of the City. Of the 

          17       Mayor and I can certainly understand that I live 

          18       here.  It has become the priority of the 

          19       Department of Education which it never should 

          20       have been.  Children come first.  They have been 

          21       rumors out there and let me tell you, I have 

          22       worked in 14 years with people all over this city 

          23       from employees of the Central Board of Education, 

          24       Department of Education, excuse me, to 

          25       Legislators, parents, school board members, Union 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       leaders, Union members, all over this city and I 

           3       hear a lot of things.  Some of those things are 

           4       really frightening.  They're talking about, as if 

           5       it were a done deal, consolidating school 

           6       districts.  Well that I thought was up to the New 

           7       York State Legislature.  They're talking about 

           8       decimating the number of Superintendents.  This 

           9       is all for the purpose of cost effectiveness and 

          10       not for seeing their children get educated.  

          11       They're talking about eliminating Deputy 

          12       Superintendents.  To tell you the truth, to 

          13       Tweed, Deputy Superintendents don't exist.  They 

          14       haven't met once with the Deputy Superintendents. 

          15       They don't speak to them and we know how hard a 

          16       job they do in running a district.  They're 

          17       talking about replacing Deputy Superintendents 

          18       with Managing Principals.  Sounds very lovely. 

          19       It's a very good way of getting someone to do the 

          20       job of a Deputy Superintendent without giving 

          21       them a Deputy Superintendent's salary. 

          22                    You also get them out of the schools 

          23       so they don't have all this pressure to succeed 

          24       on them also.  They're also talking about seeking 

          25       new supervisors, not just from among master 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       teachers, educational leaders, but business 

           3       people.  I have never been against the 

           4       Chancellors being chosen from the business 

           5       community, but principals being chosen from the 

           6       business community?  Is it a secret here that 

           7       this is already, it was called privatization.  

           8       Edison has been doing it.  It's a failure.  It's 

           9       not working.  It's not helping children, but 

          10       you're going to take someone who knows nothing 

          11       about the nuts and bolts of education and put 

          12       them in charge of a school.  Actually, I'd like 

          13       to go over, let's talk about the Chancellor.  

          14       I've always believed the Office of Chancellor 

          15       should be by (inaudible).  You should have a, 

          16       maybe a Commissioner, a Chancellor, someone in 

          17       charge of administration, someone in charge of 

          18       education, and they should be forced to have to 

          19       sit down and come to terms with each other doing 

          20       things that make monetary sense while at the same 

          21       time doing things that make sense for the 

          22       education of children.  That is certainly not 

          23       happening now. 

          24                    And one thing I have written that I 

          25       didn't say that I would like to that is 




 


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           2       considering what's happening in the corporate 

           3       world today, the last thing I would try to do to 

           4       use as a model for running anything would be the 

           5       corporate world's way of running education.                 

           6       All of these notions are being considered but 

           7       the most important piece from which all else 

           8       blows is still being researched.  The aims, the 

           9       goals and strategies to improve our childrens' 

          10       education and help them meet the standards that 

          11       this state has set.  Professional development has 

          12       gone out the door.  Funds for mentoring are gone.  

          13       Funds for maintaining staff in district offices 

          14       to support teachers, to support principals, 

          15       that's gone.  Cost cutting has taken precedence 

          16       over the future of our children.  There's been no 

          17       attempt to integrate the districts and the 

          18       Department of Education.  Superintendents input 

          19       is token at best. 

          20                    They have encouraged Superintendents 

          21       not to speak with their boards, not to offer too 

          22       much information to their parents, not to speak 

          23       with their Legislators and certainly, heaven 

          24       forbid, not to speak with the press.  How is a 

          25       Superintendent supposed to represent their 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       district and not represent the Chairs. 

           3                    They're talking about dispersing 

           4       citywide (inaudible) education.  Mandating that 

           5       overcrowded schools have to accept children from 

           6       failing schools without meaningful input from 

           7       parents, from communities, all of these thing are 

           8       being thrown into the pot.  That, at a time when 

           9       there is a vacuum in governance on a community 

          10       level.  If those in authority continue as they 

          11       begun we're in serious trouble and anyone with 

          12       school age children who can move out of this city 

          13       will.  The newly constituted Central Board, I 

          14       miss you Terri, except for those members who have 

          15       been appointed by the Borough representatives, 

          16       are more then, they're not a board.  They're a 


          17       panel of hear no evil, see no evil, speak no 

          18       evil, like the Superintendents, they have their 

          19       marching orders. 

          20                    I ask that whatever form of council 

          21       or board you ultimately recommend, whether it be 

          22       the retention of community school boards, 

          23       district councils, borough boards, or district 

          24       borough advancement, that was an idea that Jill 

          25       Levy mentioned when we had a meeting with 




 


                                                                 317

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Councilman Mark Whepren, and I thought if you do 

           3       choose to get rid of school boards it would be 

           4       most helpful, but would have to be on a district 

           5       and borough level.  That whatever that form is it 

           6       have the power to select Superintendents, set 

           7       priorities for budgets, be part of an appeals 

           8       process and provide real checks and balances to a 

           9       centralized authority.  Without these powers, it 

          10       can only be ineffective.  It's also vital that 

          11       the new governance structure accurately reflect 

          12       the ethnic make up of the schools and 

          13       communities.  As an example, leadership teams, as 

          14       in the case of most PTA executive boards, don't 

          15       come close to being representative of their 

          16       student body, nor do they include community 

          17       representatives, and I'm speaking for my own 

          18       district.  They have been largely impotent and 

          19       parent empowerment, a word that is figurative 

          20       only.  There is really a problem of continuity, 

          21       especially on a middle school level when you have 

          22       parents in a school.  They come in one year.  

          23       They first learn about the school.  The next year 

          24       they might get on the leadership team and in 

          25       another year they're gone. 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    School, elected school board members 

           3       through proportional voting, I know that word is 

           4       an enema, is reflective of their constituencies 

           5       and provides a bridge between the educational 

           6       community and the community at large.  I wanted 

           7       to tell you, adding one thing --

           8                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:    I hate to 

           9       interrupt you.  We'll have to ask you to conclude 

          10       because the time is --

          11                    MS. MAURER:   I will.  I thank you 

          12       for your time, your efforts, wish you well in 

          13       your quest to seek an answer to the governance 

          14       issue and hope that you will put the educational 

          15       needs of our children first.  Thank you. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          17       very much. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you.  Assembly 

          19       member Barbara Clarke. 

          20                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:   Good evening.  

          21       As far as Assemblyman Sanders and Assemblywoman 

          22       Pheffer is concerned, I wouldn't have had, and 

          23       John, I wouldn't have had to come here because 

          24       they know exactly what I'm going to say.  But I 

          25       just thought I should come and put it on the 




 


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           2       record that I voted for and am in support of 

           3       replacing Community School Boards.  The question 

           4       is what do we replace them with?  My feeling 

           5       about replacing community school boards is that 

           6       we have to do something to change what's 

           7       happening in our school system and we've done 

           8       what we could in Albany.  And a lot of people 

           9       don't agree with what we've done so far, but I 

          10       think that we made a conscious effort to try to 

          11       change something because our children are failing 

          12       in this city and if we keep doing the same thing 

          13       we always did we'll keep getting the same thing 

          14       we always got.  That's, you know, it took a 

          15       little hammering on my head to realize that 

          16       because I was thinking we could just keep 

          17       improving, trying to improve what we had. 

          18                    I never ran for community school 

          19       board.  I always helped people get elected but 

          20       the reason I didn't run for school board is I 

          21       felt I would be co-acted, believe it or not.  As 

          22       a young, silly parent with four children, I felt 

          23       I would be co-acted based on what I saw and that 

          24       was a long time ago.  All four of my children 

          25       when to public school in the neighborhood.  





 


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           2       Andrew Jackson, I need to say more.  Everybody 

           3       says, four of your children went to Andrew 

           4       Jackson, yes and they're all professionals doing 

           5       very, very well and I'm very proud of that, but I 

           6       never wanted to be on the community school board.  

           7       I helped people get elected, I've tried to make 

           8       them do what I thought they should do, I didn't 

           9       always see that.  There were diligent people, 

          10       committed people and I think they wanted to do a 

          11       good job.  I think school boards may not have 

          12       always known what their mission was and so I 

          13       think there has to be something happens at a 

          14       lower level. 

          15                    School leadership teams, I believe, 

          16       with proper training, can serve the same purpose 

          17       and that is everybody's concerned about parents 

          18       having a voice.  I've sat at community school 

          19       board meetings where the room was packed with 

          20       parents, a room this size.  When the after school 

          21       program was closing down and the school board 

          22       went on for hours and never recognized a single 

          23       parent is sitting there because this was an exec 

          24       board meeting, there's no way I would have been 

          25       sitting where your sitting and have that many 




 


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           2       people in the room and not say, well what are you 

           3       all here for?  You know, what's the problem?  

           4       And, but that did not happen.  This is not under 

           5       the present school board.  This is a few years 

           6       ago, not long ago, but a few years ago. 

           7                    So, in many instances, the parent 

           8       don't have a voice anyway.  At the local school 

           9       level, I believe that this is where we stand the 

          10       best chance of getting a core group of interested 

          11       people that's interested in that building and 

          12       then from that building everyone for every school 

          13       building will have it's own personal interests.  

          14       And people operate very, very well when they have 

          15       a personal interest.  Their building and then out 

          16       of those school buildings people can come 

          17       together and create coalitions, you might want to 

          18       call them borough boards or school leadership 

          19       team coalitions, whatever, I'm not sure exactly 

          20       what things should be called, but certainly you 

          21       would have an interested group of people that 

          22       goes on a best school system and their school 

          23       building and I believe that those group of people 

          24       will make a better group of people to represent 

          25       the interest of the children because they're 




 



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           2       their kids. 

           3                    You know, these are people that have 

           4       a vested interest.  The teachers should have a 

           5       vested interest.  Those teachers in that 

           6       building.  The principal certainly should and the 

           7       parent we know have a vested interest.  They may 

           8       not know what to do exactly, but they have a 

           9       vested interest.  These are their children.  And 

          10       so, and I don't think that they believe that they 

          11       have a voice now.  Most parent --  I mean you 

          12       hear from a few when you come out and hold these 

          13       hearings, but most parents don't feel like they 

          14       have a voice now, that's why you don't see many 

          15       of them because they don't think they make a 

          16       difference one way or the other. 

          17                    So, I support the school leadership 

          18       teams as the alternative to community school 

          19       boards, but I support working very hard and 

          20       providing the resources necessary to make them 

          21       effective.  I support the Department of 

          22       Education, the Mayor and everybody concerned, 

          23       Borough Presidents, giving them the venue for 

          24       airing their concerns because parents just 

          25       believe they don't have a way of talking to 




 


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           2       people and getting their message across.  That 

           3       has to happen.  Presently, Superintendents are 

           4       ignoring leadership team people and ignoring --  

           5       I'm not saying 100%, I can't do that, but the 

           6       experience that I have is they ignore them.  You 

           7       know, they don't mean squat.  Now, I'm serious, 

           8       that's my experience, so that has to change.  If 

           9       you're going to have school leadership --  And 

          10       everybody and school board members and a lot of 

          11       people have not accepted school leadership teams.  

          12       If they become legitimate in law, then everybody 

          13       will have to accept them because right now they 

          14       get a, oh school leadership teams.  I don't care 

          15       where you go, school leadership teams. 

          16                    They're not replacing the PTA and 

          17       they shouldn't, but they serve a different 

          18       function, the makeup is different.  You can have 

          19       community people, you can have school 

          20       administrators, parents and all of those people 

          21       on the school leadership team but they have to 

          22       have their voices heard in order to make any kind 

          23       of change in the school system. 

          24                    So my statement is very, very brief.  

          25       I think we need to get on with it.  Our children 




 


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           2       can't wait.  I'll tell you one more thing.  I was 

           3       at a school this morning, Andrew Jackson High 

           4       School which is now four small schools, we call 

           5       it the campus now.  And we had a report from our 

           6       Reading Emergent Teacher because the kids come in 

           7       not being able to read.  We decided not to create 

           8       four magnet schools where children had to be 

           9       tested to get in because we knew we would be 

          10       excluding too many kids from the neighborhood and 

          11       so children have to go to school, that's it.  If 

          12       you've graduated junior high school and you have 

          13       a decent attendance rate, you can get into the 

          14       building.  But guess what?  They graduate junior 

          15       high school and they can't read!  The list they 

          16       showed us of the assessment that they did on 

          17       students going into the reading emergent program, 

          18       there wasn't 10 who was reading on a sixth grade 

          19       level.  Some reading is low as the first grade 

          20       level and when I asked, is this a student who 

          21       speak another language, no.  Most reading at the 

          22       second, third, fourth grade level.  And I'm 

          23       serious. 

          24                    I can share that information with 

          25       you anytime you want.  The reading teacher came 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       last year and told us that what you're going to 

           3       find out is how did these kids get in to high 

           4       school, you know, because they can't read, write 

           5       or do math.  But the major thing we focused on is 

           6       reading because they'll never do math, technology 

           7       or any of those things, but they can't read.  So 

           8       our focus has been to teach them how to read so 

           9       we created this reading emergent program.  I'm 

          10       going to finish right at this minute. 

          11                        And so the reality is that 

          12       children are not being educated at the school 

          13       board level.  High schools are, you know, they 

          14       have an impossible job because they're trying to 

          15       do the whole thing to get the kids through and 

          16       now with new standards, it's impossible for them 

          17       to do.  So now everybody's going to blame the new 

          18       standards which we should have.  But the kids 

          19       have failed down at the lower school level, so 

          20       something has to happen to change that.  So I'm 

          21       here to support the notion of changing it so that 

          22       we can try to do a better job at educating the 

          23       children from the first through eight.  And this 

          24       is a good time for me to put in a plug for K 

          25       through 8's because then that would eliminate one 




 


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           2       of the areas of concern that people have about 

           3       how many levels of school we have to go through.  

           4       Parent will be there longer, hopefully teachers 

           5       will stay there longer and I think it will be a 

           6       win- win situation, so I thank you for your time, 

           7       thank you for all the good work that you do.  

           8       Chairman Sanders I look forward to going back to 

           9       Albany and working very closely with you. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:    I think 

          11       there may be a question or two.  We'll try to 

          12       keep them brief, but I just have to offer a very 

          13       brief comment.  Barbara Clark and I have had 

          14       hundreds, thousands of discussions about 

          15       education over the years.  As a member of the 

          16       Education Committee, one of the Senior members of 

          17       the Education Committee, occasionally we've 

          18       yelled at one another, no, let me change that.  

          19       Occasional you've yelled at me.  But all the 

          20       while I have always known, and I need for your 

          21       constituents in Queens to hear this as well, that 

          22       there's nobody in the State Legislature who cares 

          23       more about public education or more about the 

          24       students or more about the communities then 

          25       Barbara Clark.  So happy you were here tonight.  




 


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           2       Robin Brown. 

           3                    MS. BROWN:   I just have one 

           4       question.  In terms of school leadership teams, 

           5       would you support parents being the majority on 

           6       school leadership teams or would you leave the 

           7       composition as it is?

           8                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:   Well I've 

           9       tried to get that, didn't I Steve?  I tried to 

          10       get majority parents because I felt that in some 

          11       instance parents may not be as knowledgeable as 

          12       the other people on the team and there was some 

          13       sources, I think probably the UFT, and did not 

          14       want to see that happen.  I don't know exactly 

          15       who didn't want to see it happen, but certainly I 

          16       think that would probably be a good mix to have 

          17       more parents then school administration. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   I want to echo 

          19       Assemblyman Sanders comments about your long 

          20       standing passionate support --

          21                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:   You all do a 

          22       pretty good job struggling on this education.  

          23       Hail yourselves.  So thank you. 

          24                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you.  Your 

          25       proposal then is to strengthen the school 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       leadership teams, expand the role of parents.  

           3       What do you see at the district level replacing 

           4       school boards or do you, are you suggesting that 

           5       there not be any?

           6                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:   I don't think 

           7       there needs to be anything to replace the school 

           8       boards particularity other then a coalition of a 

           9       sort, maybe for one of a better name, of all of 

          10       the school leadership teams.  I mean we have what 

          11       we call President's Council now which is a 

          12       coalition of parents and I think they work very 

          13       effectively.  They will share ideas and build 

          14       lobbying forces within the group and I believe 

          15       that something like that would happen.  What has 

          16       to happen is there has to be some clear 

          17       definition of what they're allowed to do, whose 

          18       supposed to listen to them, how long there should 

          19       be between the time that they complain and the 

          20       time somebody takes action.  I mean there has to 

          21       be some specifics in place as to who will respond 

          22       to an organization down at the local level, in my 

          23       opinion.  I think that's where the major group is 

          24       going to be is how do you make people move?  But 

          25       I think parents technically are the most powerful 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       group of people there are in the system if they 

           3       use that power but they don't believe it so our 

           4       goal has to be is to make them believe that they 

           5       have the power. 

           6                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

           7                    MR. CLAYTON:   How are you doing 

           8       Honorable Barbara Clark?  How are you feeling? 

           9                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:   Fine. 

          10                    MR. CLAYTON:   I just have a quick 

          11       question going back to the makeup of a leadership 

          12       team body.  As we know, the school leadership 

          13       teams are supposed to resemble the stake holders 

          14       and if by chance this new governance body were to 

          15       try to comprise itself of resembling the 

          16       education body, how do you feel, because this 

          17       morning we had testimony, and how do you feel 

          18       about, as far as teachers, we're trying to get 

          19       away from that Union thing, you mentioned the 

          20       UFT, about retired educators on such a new 

          21       governance body because we feel that it is 

          22       important to bring aboard educators because they 

          23       do have the expertise in a lot of the curriculum 

          24       and a lot of those areas, but we don't want to 

          25       get caught up in the Union when it comes to 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       voting, if you have to vote on these elections, 

           3       this new body that's set up, so how do you feel 

           4       bringing on retired people who have been through 

           5       this, who has the expertise and bringing them 

           6       back in the fold?

           7                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:   Well I don't 

           8       have a problem with retirees.  If they're 

           9       interested enough to give up their time and want 

          10       to get involved to help because maybe some of the 

          11       constraints have been taken off when they're 

          12       retirees as long as there not there as some 

          13       special interest person, unless that special 

          14       interest is to kids, then they shouldn't be 

          15       there, but otherwise I don't see why it should be 

          16       a problem with them being there.  And I'll tell 

          17       you something else about teachers.  My daddy was 

          18       a coal miner.  Very, very, very union oriented.  

          19       I'm not anti-union.  I'm very anti many of the 

          20       things that the UFT does, you know, but the 

          21       reality is there are unions like everybody else, 

          22       they do good things and then they do bad things, 

          23       you know.  I've always wondered why UFT spent $2 

          24       million dollars to create a curriculum instead of 

          25       spending $2 million dollars training teachers on 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       how to handle kids in the classroom.  They do 

           3       some of that, but they need to do more, so there 

           4       are teachers who pull rabbits out of a hat to do 

           5       her job, some.  My son, my two sons just got a 

           6       Christmas card from a teacher that they had in 

           7       the third and fourth grade. 

           8                    Ms. Obarsky and Ms. Obarsky tells 

           9       them if you don't write to me I'm going to break 

          10       your arm when I see you.  There are special 

          11       teachers.  There are very special teachers.  So, 

          12       to the extent that a teacher wants to serve on 

          13       the school board and have the best interest of 

          14       the children at heart instead of their Union 

          15       duties, I think that's fine.  I think it takes 

          16       all three, teachers, administrators and parents, 

          17       oh four, and community to make education work for 

          18       kids. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   We thank you 

          20       very much.  I'll see you Monday night. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK:   Thank you.  

          22       See you Monday. 

          23                    MS. THOMSON:   We'll now call up 

          24       Patricia Cruz, President of President's Council 

          25       in District 75 and Michelle Dudley, PTA 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       President, District 75, P.S. 177.  As a duo. 

           3                    MS. CRUZ:   My name is Patricia 

           4       Cruz.  I'm President of President's Council for 

           5       District 75.  For those of you who have never 

           6       heard of District 75, we have 22,000 children 

           7       receiving special ed services citywide.  I am no 

           8       big fan of community school boards and the reason 

           9       I am is we don't have one.  We've never had one.  

          10       I live in District 27.  My son attends a District 

          11       26 school in a District 75 program.  I have a son 

          12       that attends a school in District 30 in a 

          13       District 77 program and I have a son in District 

          14       27 in my local school. We, who do we go to?  No 

          15       community school board gets out there and fights 

          16       for the 2% of our kids.  Never have I heard a 

          17       community school board fight for special 

          18       education. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   No, we're not 

          20       going to have cross --

          21                    MS. CRUZ:   I'm here tonight to 

          22       speak on behalf of the special education 

          23       children.  Our children are treated a second 

          24       class citizens.  Our children are self contained 

          25       classes located in general ed buildings.  We're 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       usually on the third floor or we are in the 

           3       basement.  During citywide testing, we are not 

           4       allowed out of our classrooms because we make too 

           5       much noise and we interrupt the general ed while 

           6       they are taking their tests.  Our kids are bussed 

           7       for miles, for hours out of districts to 

           8       districts that do not want our kids.  They have 

           9       made it known.  We don't have anybody there 

          10       fighting for our kids rights.  Nobody.  We're 

          11       just starting to get vocal, our district, and now 

          12       with everything going on with the new Chancellor 

          13       and the Mayor overseeing, we are definitely 

          14       afraid of what's going to happen and become of 

          15       our children. 

          16                    Whatever you decide, please have a 

          17       separate component for special ed in District 75.  

          18       Some of our kids are non-verbal, some of our kids 

          19       are in wheelchairs, they need feeding tubes, they 

          20       need ambulances, they need a voice, they need to 

          21       be heard, so whatever you decide, please, please, 

          22       please remember our special ed kids.  Thank you. 

          23                    MS. DUDLEY:   Hi, again, I'm the 

          24       President of PTA for 177.  We're an all inclusive 

          25       special ed school that has autistic children, 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       emotionally disturbed children and multiply 

           3       handicapped such as speech impaired.  There were 

           4       petitions going around District 26 from parents 

           5       trying to get our kids so they could have our 

           6       school building because we do not have any 

           7       general ed  in our building.  So this is the kind 

           8       of discrimination our children face on a daily 

           9       basis and when we came last year to the City 

          10       Council to testify on the budget cuts coming 

          11       down, after waiting three hours when it was the 

          12       parents turn to speak, half the City Council 

          13       members left and didn't stay to hear us.  Today 

          14       we had a President's Council meeting where a 

          15       month ago we started e-mailing all our city 

          16       council members.  I e-mailed everyone three 

          17       times.  We sent faxes, we tried to call whoever 

          18       we could and seven people responded and only two 

          19       showed up who weren't even our city council 

          20       members, but they sent representatives and Ava 

          21       Moscowitz did send someone so we were grateful 

          22       for that. 

          23                    That's just the kind of thing that 

          24       happens with District 75.  We're not learning 

          25       disabled children.  We are our own special needs 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       district and there are rumors flying around that 


           3       the Mayor and the Chancellor want to dissolve our 

           4       district and these general ed teachers not only 

           5       don't want us, they can't handle us and whenever 

           6       parents come, we speak and we advocate and we 

           7       finally found Terri and a year later the board 

           8       was gone.  The Chancellor put together this new 

           9       board and the parents on the board can't even 

          10       vote because they're always outnumbered by the 

          11       Mayor's electees and I've come to meetings here 

          12       at this office when they were looking for a 

          13       Queens parent member and Helen Marshall sat there 

          14       and told all the parents, it's not too late if 

          15       you still want to nominate somebody, no problem, 

          16       send it in, and with no disrespect to Evita, 

          17       because I like her very much, the next day it was 

          18       announced that the Queens person had been 

          19       elected. 

          20                    So parents feel that they are being 

          21       lied to I feel and we're not given enough notice 

          22       to come and testify so I just want to ask you, 

          23       when you go about doing what you're decision 

          24       making is going to be, please have either parents 

          25       outweigh the other members on the team, give our 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       school leaderships more power because no matter 

           3       what the principal can still out vote us and 

           4       luckily we're all special ed, so obviously our 

           5       interests are different then when we share a 

           6       building.  But like Pat said, don't forget about 

           7       us because we won't forget about you guys.  And I 

           8       just ask, you know, we have so many ideas and so 

           9       much to offer and Terri's been there with us all 

          10       along and she's still helping us and we're not 

          11       going to go down quietly, so don't think you are 

          12       going to get rid of us.  Thank you. 

          13                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, let me 

          14       just say that this is generally true of 

          15       everything we're doing.  None of us know how this 

          16       is all going to turn out.  We're listening very 

          17       carefully to all of the testimony.  We literally 

          18       have 25, 30 hours ahead of us before we complete 

          19       that, but you can be assured whatever the outcome 

          20       is, you will not be forgotten. 

          21                    MS. DUDLEY:   And we thank you for 

          22       not leaving.  Thank you. 

          23                    MS. THOMSON:   Earnest Brown, School 

          24       Board Member, District 27.  A few school board 

          25       members from District 27, I just want to make 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       mention, make note that your President, Steve 

           3       Greenberg spoke to us at our Manhattan meeting.  

           4       He did you proud.  He was quite eloquent.  He 

           5       gave some very, very thoughtful testimony and we 

           6       had a great dialogue with him for quite some 

           7       time. 

           8                    MR. BROWN:   My name is Earnest 

           9       Brown.  I'm a member of the Community School 

          10       Board 27.  I've been involved in District 27 for 

          11       over the past 33 years, six children and numerous 

          12       grandchildren.  There's the 33 years.  Before I 

          13       begin my statement, I'd like to say that 

          14       centralized education is nothing new.  In fact, 

          15       when I was going to school, the system was 

          16       centralized and there was a great fight, I think, 

          17       probably none of the members here were involved 

          18       in the fight for de- centralization and there was 

          19       a reason.  We felt that it was important that 

          20       parents be involved in the decision making, 

          21       really involved. 

          22                    Now, I'm sitting before you to talk 

          23       about, it's a conversation that I feel 

          24       uncomfortable with, namely asking you to give me, 

          25       a parent and other parents, a voice in how we're 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       going to do things.  You have, many Legislators, 

           3       maybe some sitting here, you more or less, 

           4       establish the game when you change the law.  You 

           5       created a very centralized, very strong Mayor, 

           6       that was your wish.  This Mayor can assign a 

           7       panel, he was allowed to have a panes, he can 

           8       appoint a panel, eight members, a panel that's 

           9       supposed to be 13, he appoints eight of the 

          10       thirteen, so I can imagine how a discussion goes 

          11       in something like that.  He appoints the 

          12       Chancellor.  He don't have to consult with 

          13       anybody.  This is my man.  And the Chancellor 

          14       serves as President, not elected, but he is 

          15       President of this education panel.  He appoints 

          16       the Superintendents and now you say after 

          17       developing something like that, you say, well 

          18       gee, what are we going to do with the parents?  I 

          19       hope that you don't believe that you are going to 

          20       create a parent group that is not going to say, 

          21       it's going to continually say yes because 

          22       basically that's where the parents are going to 

          23       find themselves.  Yes, that's going to become the 

          24       big word over the next few years until the next 

          25       generation comes up and begins to fight. 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    Yes is any appointed group.  You 

           3       appoint somebody, you're loyal to the person who 

           4       appoints you and that's what you're some how not 

           5       to do.  Incidently, there was a thing called 

           6       local school boards, before there were school 

           7       boards, there was local school boards, just like 

           8       there was a Superintendent of Schools, believe it 

           9       or not.  The local school board was appointed by 

          10       the Borough Presidents and basically the function 

          11       of that local school board was to say yes.  They 

          12       did it very well.  Now back to my statement.  We 

          13       are here today to discuss the future of local 


          14       elected community school boards or what should 

          15       replace them as the district level school 

          16       governance body. 

          17                     I submit that in the New York City 

          18       school system of over 1,200 schools, over one 

          19       million students, five boroughs and 32 school 

          20       districts with nearly total control vested in the 

          21       Mayor, it is critical that the State Legislature 

          22       maintain a local district level school governance 

          23       body. 

          24                    With control of New york City school 

          25       system given to the Mayor, it is more important 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       then ever to maintain a system of checks and 

           3       balances in public school governance.  Without  a 

           4       system of checks and balances at the local level, 

           5       parents and community stakeholder in public 

           6       school education will be denied a meaningful 

           7       voice in the City's public schools.  Community 

           8       school boards have provided the opportunity for 

           9       local public access and participation for over 33 

          10       years in New York City.  Whether you maintain 

          11       community school boards or set up another 

          12       district level school governance structure, you 

          13       must not deny the parents and voters in New York 

          14       City the meaningful elected representation that 

          15       you maintain in place in the rest of the state. 

          16                    What should district school 

          17       governance be like?  It must be elected to 

          18       command the respect and authority necessary for 

          19       meaningful independent accountable 

          20       representation.  It must preserve the right to 

          21       vote for New York City residents as it is 

          22       preserved in Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester 

          23       Counties and in the rest of the State and most of 

          24       the nation.  It must empower the representatives 

          25       with real responsibilities for educational policy 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       and planning such as approval of the District 

           3       Comprehensive Education Plan, review the district 

           4       budget and contribute tot he evaluation of the 


           5       district Superintendent in consultation with 

           6       parents and the public.  It must be accountable 

           7       to parents and the public by providing local 

           8       public access and opportunities for parents and 

           9       the community to discuss concerns in public 

          10       settings.  Governance without real responsibility 

          11       and accountability is no governance at all. 

          12                    School level decision making is a 

          13       positive thing but it does not replace an elected 

          14       and accountable district level governance body.  

          15       District decisions effect the resources at the 


          16       school, it's leadership and the policies and 

          17       procedures staff and students must follow.  

          18       School level decisions are limited in scope and 

          19       are often made without any meaningful input from 

          20       parents. 

          21                    The system, now nearly fully 

          22       centralized, must hold the Chancellor accountable 

          23       for effective school governance.  The Legislature 

          24       must make the Chancellor consult regularly with 

          25       district governance bodies on matters of 




 


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           2       educational policy, major district appointments 

           3       and on other matters of concern to district 

           4       parents and the public.  This is not now the case 

           5       and has not been the case for some time.  The 

           6       ability of the Chancellor to bypass and ignore 

           7       local school boards became a fatal flaw in the 

           8       current system.  It is a flaw that this task 

           9       force and the Legislature should correct by 

          10       ensuring that the Chancellor is responsive to 

          11       school district communities through regular 

          12       consultation with their elected district level 

          13       governance bodies. 

          14                    The right to vote should not be 

          15       legislated away.  The public supports public 

          16       education through taxation.  All members of the 

          17       community share in its costs and benefits.  All 

          18       members of the community must be able to vote for 

          19       their elected district governance body.  Elected 

          20       representation has been the model for public 

          21       school governance throughout the United States 

          22       for over a century.  This task force must ensure 

          23       that the citizens of New York City retain the 

          24       same right to vote for local school district 

          25       representation enjoyed by voters elsewhere in 




 


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           2       this state and nation.

           3                    Finally, districts as they currently 

           4       exist should continue to exist and a 

           5       Superintendent, empowered by the Legislature with 

           6       sufficient powers for district administration, 

           7       must be assigned to, and present in, each local 

           8       district in order to be accessible to the schools 

           9       and parents under their jurisdiction.  It appears 

          10       that the city is moving in the opposite direction 

          11       and that it will require the State Legislators to 

          12       insert language in the law that makes sure that 

          13       parents and the community have local access to 

          14       the district's decision-maker.  Local parent, 

          15       school, neighborhood and community alliances 

          16       forged in local school districts during the past 

          17       thirty-three years must be protected by the State 

          18       Legislature. 

          19                    I live in Rockaway, about as far 

          20       away for the Tweed Courthouse as you can get.  

          21       Parents in my community should not have to go to 

          22       the Tweed Courthouse or to City Hall to raise a 

          23       concern.  It is difficult enough for parents in 

          24       this day and age to participate without the State 

          25       standing by and permitting Mayoral control and 




 


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           2       difficult budget times to wipe out community 

           3       input, access and representation.  I'd like to 

           4       thank you for the opportunity.

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

           6       very much Mr. Brown.  Any questions?  

           7       Ms. Pheffer. 

           8                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Sorry, 

           9       Earnest, you heard Assemblywoman Clark talk about 

          10       leadership teams and setting up something that 

          11       way, elected by the local schools, the leadership 

          12       teams, to a district.  What's your feeling about 

          13       the leadership teams and using them as a vehicle?

          14                    MR. BROWN:    The leadership team, I 

          15       feel, is a very good idea.  It created another 

          16       level in which parents could participate within 

          17       their schools, within their schools.  But I don't 

          18       think that that replaces a district wide 

          19       situation.  One of the problems, no matter what 

          20       type of governance you create, you can call it 

          21       what you want, you can create anything you want, 

          22       you can put in as many numbers as you want, but 

          23       it goes back to if that body cannot say no and it 

          24       means anything then the body is nothing and 

          25       unfortunately, as you talk about if you followed 




 


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           2       the history of community school boards, how much 

           3       authority and power they had when they began and 

           4       over the years how that power was slowly eroded, 

           5       and then you say to me --  Think about this.  You 

           6       had a board that at one time had a public, last 

           7       public discussion about who was to be 

           8       Superintendent of the district.  The school was 

           9       packed.  The auditorium was packed.  If it came 

          10       to a question of principal appointments, we 

          11       could, when we could do that type of thing, 

          12       packed, lots of energy and that energy existed 

          13       because this body was able to exert it's 

          14       influence. 

          15                    As people, people aren't that 

          16       committed like you'd like to think. As people 

          17       began to see, well I'm coming out every night, 

          18       I'm coming to this body and I'm talking my heart 

          19       out and actually this body can't do a darn thing 

          20       for me except move me on to the Superintendent or 

          21       move me on to someone else.  So after a while, 

          22       well you can't, as an example, you can't make a 

          23       decision whether or not we should have a 

          24       Kindergarten graduation with caps and gowns.  You 

          25       can't make that decision? You can't, you know, 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       little simple things which are important to the 

           3       people and as you begin to see that a body has no 

           4       power, a very lofty name, a lot of other stuff 

           5       but no real influence to make a decision and to 

           6       change the direction of something, then people 

           7       will not support it and I hope that you don't 

           8       create a body, or a group, a panel that has no 

           9       influence.  And if you look at what the 

          10       Legislature created within the Mayor's Office, I 

          11       don't see where actually a parent has much 

          12       influence anywhere. 

          13                    But at any rate, whatever you 

          14       create, if it's a necessity, whatever you say 

          15       they're going to do, you're going to have to make 

          16       sure that they have the clout to do it and that 

          17       everybody respects the fact that they can do this 

          18       and they have to be real things that the people 

          19       are concerned about, not what you or someone else 

          20       in the Legislature or even at Federal levels and 

          21       what not, not what you're interested in but what 

          22       are the things that parents feel they must have 

          23       the power to effect the education of their 

          24       children.  Even if you say just at the school 

          25       level.  Who gives them that power?  Do they take 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       it, which incidentally, that has always been the 

           3       way, but do they take this power or do you give 

           4       them the power?  Now, as I talk, I guess you can 

           5       say I more or less sort of feathering my own 

           6       nest. 

           7                    This is my last year on the school 

           8       board.  I will not, no matter what the office is, 

           9       I'm not going to be seeking one, but I think that 

          10       the generations to come are going to need a very 

          11       strong, if you call it middle management, they're 

          12       going to need a very strong body and they can't 

          13       be one of these jokes where the people go certain 

          14       places and people laugh at them because it don't 

          15       take long for you to realize that you're being 

          16       laughed at and once you get to that point, you'll 

          17       have no respect and people will take it into 

          18       their own hands to do what they feel is 

          19       important. 

          20                    MS. THOMSON:   Mr. Brown.  

          21       Mr. Brown, I just want to thank you for your many 

          22       years of service to our children.  Delores 

          23       Bevilacqua, Community School Board 27, Second 

          24       Vice President. 

          25                    MS. BEVILACQUA:   Good evening and 




 



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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       we miss you.  I don't know if I just want to 

           3       throw my testimony that I have written and 

           4       prepared and given to you out the window because 

           5       it seems like you've heard it time and time again 

           6       and I don't know if I want to cry or vomit 

           7       because I still have a third grader in the system 

           8       and I have four children, my oldest being 23 and 

           9       the minute he walked into Kindergarten I think I 

          10       took that step with him and I never left the 

          11       school.  And as I come around to this point in my 

          12       life, I've been a mom, a wife, a school board 

          13       member, a PA president, you name it, I've done it 

          14       at the schools, bake sales and whatever.  I've 

          15       come  to see that you want to give parents more 

          16       power and you just don't know how to do that.  

          17       Parents do have a lot of power they just don't 

          18       understand how to use it and it's so frightening 

          19       because this is not a secret.  This shouldn't be 

          20       a secret.  I'm the Chairperson of the Parent 

          21       Involvement Committee in my school board and it 

          22       seems that the other school board members said 

          23       you've always been a leader.  You've been on the 

          24       school leadership teams, you've been on District 

          25       Council of Presidents, you've always been active 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance


           2       and you can probably be one of the better people 

           3       on our school board to help them lead their, get 

           4       them a mission and help them go on and I helped 

           5       create a book in my first year of being on the 

           6       school board, I helped create a binded book and I 

           7       put a lot of things that I thought were very 

           8       useful for other PA Presidents and I distributed 

           9       them.  I held meetings and I tried to get parents 

          10       to see that they had an important role and 

          11       sitting on school leadership and just watching 

          12       it, not being a participant anymore, because 

          13       being a school board member I can't be on a 

          14       school leadership team anymore, it's manipulated 

          15       by the UFT and the principal and ultimately the 

          16       principal will get his way.  Especially if he's 

          17       good friends with the parents that are sitting on 

          18       the leadership team and if or if the UFT is good 

          19       friends with the principal.  It just winds up 

          20       that it's a secret party, what's going on.  

          21       Sometimes the parents don't bring back to their 

          22       membership what's going on during leadership and 

          23       that's a shame.  It really should be something 

          24       that is made to be told to other parents.  It 

          25       isn't secret.  Ultimately, the principal should 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       have the final decision, it's his building, he's 

           3       responsible.  He's responsible to the 

           4       Superintendent.  He's, and the Superintendent is 

           5       responsible now to the Chancellor and the Mayor 

           6       and I have found within the last year with our 

           7       new Mayor being there that our Superintendent is 

           8       not as responsive to parents as he used to be.  I 

           9       found that if the school board is not there and 

          10       the parents don't have the school board to go to 

          11       and kind of be the buffer between them, the 

          12       Superintendent usually gets to do what he wants 

          13       and not ultimately what the parents need in their 

          14       buildings and it's really sad because if there 


          15       isn't a school board there, a responsible body 

          16       other then school leadership or even District 

          17       Council of Presidents, for which I might add, our 

          18       Superintendent hasn't attended one of their 

          19       meetings yet for the last year and I do attend 

          20       them every month so this way I can help the 

          21       parents in my district. 

          22                    Ultimately, the parents are not 

          23       going to have anyone to go to.  Not even their 

          24       school leadership team.  It's really sad.  We as 

          25       a board, we have, we give the opportunity to ever 




 


                                                                 351

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       PA to tell them if they have problems, we will 

           3       sit with them as a board, with the Superintendent 

           4       and discuss their problems.  We have done so many 

           5       things that I think a lot of our parents have 

           6       left, that were good things.  We actually were 

           7       there for the parents and our communities and 

           8       every Sunday, if I shop with my nine year old, 

           9       he's like mom, we never get out of Waldbaums, we 

          10       see teachers from our community, we see other 

          11       parents from our community and they stop and they 

          12       tell me little things that are going on and I 

          13       always bring it back.  I always feel responsible 

          14       enough to bring it back and to make sure I get an 

          15       answer and if I don't get to see them the 

          16       following week in the supermarket, I make sure 

          17       that their school gets a call or I call them or 

          18       someone calls them and gives them that 

          19       information. 

          20                        There needs to be an in between 

          21       group.  And in between group that can really, 

          22       really make a difference.  Give them some power 

          23       to make a difference because the parents don't 

          24       know the secret or at least don't have the keys 

          25       to unlock the secret.  So you have my testimony, 




 


                                                                 352

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       if you care to read it, but its not exactly what 

           3       I said.  I'd like to thank you for the 

           4       opportunity and we miss you Terri.  Thank you. 

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Let me just 

           6       observe, we do have your testimony, the testimony 

           7       will become part of the record just as anyone 

           8       else who perhaps has to leave or perhaps has a 

           9       testimony they want to submit and depart from it 

          10       in their remarks and I can only tell you that, 

          11       I'll just repeat what we've all been saying all 

          12       day long, for your edification and for everyone 

          13       else's, the purpose here is not to eliminate 

          14       district representation or eliminate community 

          15       representation, certainly to change it, hopefully 

          16       to make it better and that's what we're going to 

          17       try and do. 

          18                    MS. BEVILACQUA:   I hope so because 

          19       I can't afford to move to Westchester or Long 

          20       Island. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   We don't want 

          22       you to do that.  Thank you very much. 

          23                    MS. BEVILACQUA:   Your welcome. 

          24                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you Delores.  

          25       Frances Bryant, Community Activist. 




 


                                                                 353

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    MS. BRYANT:   Good evening.  I've 

           3       seen you before.  I had to use that phrase 

           4       because at the present time I don't have a title. 

           5                    MS. THOMSON:   It's a good title, 

           6       Community Activist. 

           7                    MS. BRYANT:   Well, when it comes to 

           8       education, you just can't keep me home.  My 

           9       background is I was President of the John Adams 

          10       High School Parent's Association and during that 

          11       time I organized the Southwest Queens educational 

          12       alliance which as an alliance of 22 schools on 

          13       the mainland in District 27 and they said it will 

          14       never happen.  We had two different communities, 

          15       one was mostly black, one was mostly white, 

          16       you'll never do it.  I called up and they came 

          17       and it lasted 30 years and unfortunately, there's 

          18       a big difference right now in the way things are 

          19       happening because we have two working parents or 

          20       parents that come from another country and speak 

          21       different languages at home and maybe are shyer, 

          22       you know, there are many groups that are very shy 

          23       to come out like that and to have something to 

          24       say.  But then I put together the SQADD 27 which 

          25       was the drug program, Southwest Queens Against 




 


                                                                 354

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Dangerous Drugs.  We opened storefronts in the 

           3       mainland, got State money and the kids could go 

           4       to those places and they had (inaudible) there --  

           5       I'm an organizer, it's basically what I do.  I 

           6       don't look for a job or a title.  I had principal 

           7       on the board in John Adams and from an elementary 

           8       school and there was one VP from Westinghouse.  

           9       They got on each side of me and demanded with no 

          10       uncertain terms, I had to become the next 

          11       president.  But, unfortunately pushing me into 

          12       it, these other things happened and as all of you 

          13       are givers in the work that you do, you just get 

          14       into it and I worked for UPA as a high school

          15       representative for them and they went to the 

          16       board and really got involved in the board.  It 

          17       was a very good thing because we had a school, 

          18       210, that fell apart and because I knew so many 

          19       people at the Board of Education, I got a lot of 

          20       help that we were able to change the principal 

          21       who was promoted beyond her capacity and the 

          22       whole thing fell apart.  No program, no anything. 

          23                    I'm saying this because there are 

          24       people here that I met, thinking about getting 

          25       back involved because of things, that I have 




 


                                                                 355

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       great respect for and the presentations that 

           3       they've given you, they're still in my community 

           4       and it's still working.  The other school thing 

           5       was Queens High School Group.  I was on the panel 

           6       that put it together and one of the first Vice 

           7       Presidents in there.  So, you know, you get into 

           8       all of this and then if something comes up as 

           9       school boards, then I can't stay home and I have 

          10       something. 

          11                    One of the things, Barbara Clark 

          12       mentioned, business of kids not reading.  When we 

          13       went to school on a semi-annual basis.  I spoke 

          14       to Howard Levy about this one time and he was 

          15       saying how we're thinking about it and we're 

          16       trying to figure out what we can do because that 

          17       kind of a spread with kids that, I have a kid 

          18       that was born on the 28th of November and he's in 

          19       the same class with a kid that was born in 

          20       January.  This is not the way we went to school.  

          21       The second problem with it was when my children 

          22       went to school, it was look say, no phonics.  Of 

          23       course they couldn't read.  That is the decoder.  

          24       You were, the letters, what they sound like, how 

          25       you learn to read, you can't look at a word when 




 


                                                                 356

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       you're in the first grade, second grade, third 

           3       grade and just, Oh!, that's that word, I know 

           4       what that is.  And that happened.  We got away 


           5       from it for a while and then whole language came 

           6       along and my daughter is sitting over there, I 

           7       think, she went somewhere, the blonde one, she 

           8       went to, she was working as a para in P.S. 100 in 

           9       Kindergarten and quite a long time, she's there 

          10       10 years.  She now is a teacher.  She has a 

          11       bachelors in two more, Masters, but she went to 

          12       the third grade teacher when this whole language 

          13       thing came along and she said, you know, when you 

          14       get these kids, they're not going to be able to 

          15       read.  Oh, Gale, you know that'll be alright.  

          16       They will learn.  It'll be fine.  She came back 

          17       three years later and said, son of a gun, you 

          18       were absolutely right, they can't read. 

          19                    MS. THOMSON:   I'm sorry, can I ask 

          20       you to just keep your comments to the issue of 

          21       the hearing which is school governance, okay?

          22                    MS. BRYANT:   I'll do that, you 

          23       know, I'd like you --

          24                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Because time 

          25       is running out. 




 


                                                                 357

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    MS. THOMSON:   There are a lot of 

           3       people who want to speak on the issue. 

           4                    MS. BRYANT:   Okay, but look, think 

           5       about this.  You're asking about what parents can 

           6       do, you're asking about how do kids learn.  If 

           7       you take it away because somebody thinks they 

           8       have a good program and it's going to make money 

           9       on it, that's bad.  Now, I'll get back to this.  

          10       This is fix the school board, don't do away with 

          11       it.  Keep it as an elected entity, but change the 

          12       voting procedures.  Times have changed and we 

          13       need to revamp a convoluted voting procedure into 

          14       a sensible, understanding method for parents and 

          15       voters.  I was there went it came out.  Confused 

          16       everybody.  Now, there was, District 27 is the 

          17       largest New York City district except for Staten 

          18       Island.  Local access is extremely necessary.  

          19       Most families today have both parents in the work 

          20       force.  We have a plan that will allow them to 

          21       stay involved in closer proximity to the help 

          22       they need.  Please do not hastily do away with a 

          23       very necessary access to parental help. 

          24                    Parents and community members need 

          25       an independent elected district school governance 




 


                                                                 358

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       body that is accountable only to the parents and 

           3       voters of the district.  It should have the power 

           4       to set district policy, establish and/or change 

           5       school zones and the ability to authoritatively 

           6       advocate for the district's needs. 

           7                    Mayoral control is already fostering 

           8       hasty systemic changes that will compromise 

           9       public access to information, jeopardize 

          10       districts as we know them and set new working 

          11       conditions for superintendents that take them out 

          12       of the district they are empowered to serve.  It 

          13       is entirely possible that the city will eliminate 

          14       the links forged between parents and their 

          15       community superintendents because there are no 

          16       longer any restraints on the Mayors's ability to 

          17       make changes in how superintendents are assigned 

          18       and where they work. 

          19                    The State Legislature is our only 

          20       protection against hasty and poorly thought out 

          21       systemic change.  We ask that you maintain your 

          22       authority over the size and composition of 

          23       districts.  We ask that you place language into 

          24       the law that puts a superintendent in each 

          25       district.  We ask that you continue local school 




 


                                                                 359

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       boards with a changed and improved election 

           3       process.

           4                    The original method of voting was 

           5       predicated on the opportunity for minorities to 

           6       serve.  In the interim, Queens has become the 

           7       most diversified Borough in New York City.  This 

           8       creates opportunities for all who care to serve.  

           9       A successful school board is one which works in 

          10       conjunction with the district Superintendent to 

          11       bring about a successful cohesive result. 

          12                    Each community could select their 

          13       own area representative who has knowledge of 

          14       their community school's needs.  Parents could 

          15       receive notices to attend local meetings to hear 

          16       2 or 3 or more candidates who would be more 

          17       familiar to them when they came to the school to 

          18       vote. 

          19                    A meeting with their representatives 

          20       one a month to listen to their constituents after 

          21       the elections could be valuable and accessible 

          22       for local parents.  Their representatives could 

          23       then take their concerns to the full school 

          24       board.  Parents who have the time and 

          25       transportation to attend full school board 




 


                                                                 360

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       meetings can still attend and share information. 

           3                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you. 

           4                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   We thank you 

           5       very much.  Thank you. 

           6                    MS. THOMSON:   I'd like to call 

           7       David Hooks and Rowena Schwab, both members, we 

           8       have two chair, it may save some time.  Both 

           9       member of Community School Board 27. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   I'm going to 

          11       try to remind everyone to please confine their 

          12       remarks to five minutes. 

          13                    MS. SCHWAB:   I'm Ronnie Schwab.  

          14       I'm a member of community school board 27.  I've 

          15       been involved with the schools for well over 

          16       thirty years.  My three children attended 

          17       District 27 schools.  There was a little hiatus 

          18       there and now I have a number of grandchildren 

          19       who also attend. 

          20                    I have to tell you that I wrote 

          21       these remarks and I'd like to deep 6 them right 

          22       now.  I couldn't agree more with my colleague 

          23       Earnest Brown.  He said it, practically all, but 

          24       I have some other things to say.  I find this 


          25       kind of an Alice in Wonderland atmosphere.  I 




 


                                                                 361

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       understand that the mind set is to get rid of 

           3       local school, community school boards as they 

           4       exist, but what I'm really hearing is that nobody 

           5       has the vaguest idea of what to put in their 

           6       place that will be effective and I don't believe 

           7       in throwing out what is functioning and serving 

           8       the parents until there is a plan for another 

           9       body that will serve the parents as effectively 

          10       or more effectively then we have done. 

          11                    I know that, I was not a fan of 

          12       community school boards until I became a member 

          13       and I became a member because I didn't like what 

          14       I saw in some of the schools.  I wanted better 

          15       for my grandchildren and for all the children.  

          16       I've been an educator.  I am educated and I don't 

          17       like a lot of things, well, I guess a lot of us 

          18       don't.  But there's been an awful lot of 

          19       sarcastry here, for example, one of the reasons 

          20       given for getting rid of us, it sounds like a 

          21       hit, is that we have no powers, we can't do 

          22       anything, what use do we serve?  Well of course 

          23       we don't, Albany took them away from us, so we 

          24       have not that much power, but the power we do 

          25       have we bring to the local schools, we bring into 




 


                                                                 362

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       the community, we bring to rezoning, it's not 

           3       someone in the Tweed Building, it's not someone 

           4       at 110, it's not someone in Albany who looks at 

           5       our district, the mainland and Rockaway.  We 

           6       rezone the mainland, we're working on Rockaway.  

           7       It is not an easy job because no one even know 

           8       where we are and if we're not here no one ever 

           9       will know where we are and you know that, Terri. 

          10                    Now, I just like to get to 

          11       leadership teams.  I don't like them.  The one's 

          12       that function, and there aren't a lot that 

          13       function really well, fine, but most school 

          14       leadership do not function really well.  Why?  

          15       Well, they're closed corporations number one.  

          16       Your going to find that as far as the parents go, 

          17       it's the "in group" that runs them as well as 

          18       maybe the UFT rep, I don't know, but the majority 

          19       of parents don't have a voice at what goes on at 

          20       those leadership meetings.  We have had 

          21       grievances from parents who complained that they 

          22       never shared, the teams never shared information 

          23       with the parent body and to even consider 

          24       enhancing the powers of these teams seems to me 

          25       ridiculous. 




 


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           2                    A lot of schools in a lot of 

           3       schools, these teams can't even function.  You do 

           4       have working parents who can't come to meetings.  

           5       You do have logistic problems and they just don't 

           6       and therefore they are taken over by the few who 

           7       can come.  They are not representative bodies in 

           8       the majority of cases.  They can't replace us, 

           9       when I say us I mean community school boards in 

          10       general.  I'll be happy to be replaced, it's 

          11       okay, but they can't.  You need a community 

          12       school board or an enhanced community school 

          13       board and if you leave it to school leadership 

          14       teams you're going to create, it's a lesson in 

          15       history, petty (inaudible) and we all know what 

          16       happened in the Middle Ages, the warring, the 

          17       sparing, the local battles.  We emerged from that 

          18       to the nation state and to local government and 

          19       central government and now we're going back again 

          20       somehow if we do this and I don't think it's a 

          21       good idea. 

          22                    I also don't think it's a good idea 

          23       for our Mayor to assume control of the 

          24       educational system.  I have heard him say time 

          25       and time again, I will depoliticize the 




 


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           2       educational system in this city, but what I'm 

           3       seeing is, he's going to re-politicize the 

           4       educational system in this city and I don't like 

           5       it and there's an awful lot of difference between 

           6       those two prefixes and I know there are lots of 

           7       parents who don't like it either.                     

           8                    I think you should leave us alone.  

           9       Make us better.  Make us stronger.  Give us 

          10       better parent representation.  But for goodness 

          11       sake, don't take away from, especially in the 

          12       outer boroughs where nobody from the School 

          13       Construction Authority even knew where schools 

          14       should go.  We had to tell them, you know that.  

          15       Don't take that away from us until you've got 

          16       something solid, better and approved to replace 

          17       us with.  We don't get paid a lot of money.  We 

          18       do this out of love and commitment for education 

          19       and for the children and I'm begging you, do not 

          20       abolish, don't cut off our heads until you can 

          21       really replace those heads with something even 

          22       better then we are. 

          23                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you. 

          24                    MR. HOOKS:   Are you going to allow 

          25       me to do this. 




 


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           2                    MS. THOMSON:   Absolutely, that's 

           3       why you're here.  Mr. Hooks. 

           4                    MR. HOOKS:   Good evening.  Thank 

           5       you.  Good evening.  I'm not deep sixing this.  I 

           6       wrote it therefore I feel the need to read it and 

           7       I'd like for it to be on record. 

           8                    My name is David Ross Hooks, Jr.  I 

           9       am the Secretary of community school board 27. In 

          10       that capacity, I represent the interests of the 

          11       students from Pre-K through 8th grade attending 

          12       District 27 schools.  Let me repeat that.  I 

          13       represent the interests of the students from 

          14       Pre-K through 8th grade attending District 27 

          15       schools.  I am here to speak on behalf of those 

          16       students and their families. 

          17                    This task force will make 

          18       recommendations to the State Legislature 

          19       regarding whether to change community school 

          20       boards or eliminate them and replace them with a 

          21       new district governance body.  The legislation, 

          22       as it was written last spring, sunsets community 

          23       school boards as of June 30, 2003.  If the 

          24       Legislature moves forward with the law as it was 

          25       written, it will take away from the parents and 




 


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           2       students in our schools the opportunity to have 

           3       access to the system, to get answers to their 

           4       questions and to receive independent and 

           5       accountable community representation. 

           6                    In the event that parents have need 

           7       for redress, without community school boards, 

           8       parents do not have access, there goes that word 

           9       again, to the independent representation that is 

          10       accountable only to them.  They will not be able 

          11       to get the help they need on a day to day basis 

          12       in order to assist their students and to get 

          13       unfiltered answers to their questions and 

          14       concerns. 

          15                   The press and others persistently 

          16       knock community school boards as guilty of a 

          17       myriad of crimes.  I suspect that, if examined, 

          18       this covering of all community school boards with 

          19       the same blanket would prove to be false.  


          20       However, in 1996 the Legislature put in place 

          21       provisions that it felt would prevent those 

          22       issues from occurring.  If we ignore the long ago 

          23       past and look at the present condition of local 

          24       elected community school boards, we see that 

          25       community school boards provide local independent 




 


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           2       and accountable representation in their district, 

           3       public access, there goes that word again, to the 

           4       district school system, open meetings in local 

           5       schools and advocacy for the needs of the 

           6       district and its schools. 

           7                    I urge you as you complete your 

           8       work, to make sure that the public will have 

           9       access, there goes that word again, to an 

          10       independent and accountable district school 

          11       governance system.  If you do away with community 

          12       school boards, and you don't give each citizen in 

          13       New York City comparable, independent, powerful 

          14       and accountable representation, you take away 

          15       each citizens ability to get the redress they 

          16       need and you will disenfranchise the parents and 

          17       families in District 27 and throughout every 

          18       community in New York City.  In my opinion this 

          19       will eventually ensure the collapse of the entire 

          20       system. 

          21                   If you find that the public still 

          22       wants community school boards to exist, I hope 

          23       you will have the courage to act on that request, 

          24       maintain community school boards and refuse to 

          25       deny the parents and voters of New York City, the 




 


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           2       local school board representation the Legislature 

           3       maintains throughout New York State. 

           4                    Thank you for the opportunity to 

           5       present my presentation here.  May I just say one 

           6       thing ladies and gentlemen.  Let me be explicitly 


           7       clear.  I have absolutely no children in the 

           8       board of ed.  However and I boast this where ever 

           9       I go.  I am a grandfather and I'm a grandmother 

          10       and I have children in District 27 on the 

          11       Rockaway Peninsula.  I have nieces and nephews, 

          12       they are my vested interests.  I want good for 

          13       them therefore I want good for others and as many 

          14       a folks have said here this evening and I'd like 

          15       to echo it, my colleague prior to Ms. Schaub and 

          16       I coming here, whether I'm in the supermarket, 

          17       the barber shop, folks have found where I work, 

          18       they call.  And I must tell you, I am a fortunate 

          19       man because I am able to make an appointment at 

          20       the District Office and leave my job or go to my 

          21       job late or attend a school meeting and go to my 

          22       job late, but the bottom line is if someone calls 

          23       and they say, listen can you attend the meeting 

          24       with a group of parents, hey, I will avail my 

          25       self.  Today I have.  Now I don't want to fly 




 


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           2       under no false colors.  I've only been on the 

           3       school board since January of this year as a 

           4       result of a Mr. James Saunders becoming a City 

           5       Council member.  However, it's been fun.  I've 

           6       been able to help a lot of little people and when 

           7       we talk about access, ladies and gentlemen you 

           8       must understand, I understand this school 

           9       governance thing, I understand this thing about 

          10       --  I like to call it a look at the Chicago 

          11       experience and this school leadership team thing, 

          12       it tends to mirror that, however, there are so 

          13       many flaws (inaudible) and I think that is 

          14       something that needs to be revisited.  But, let 

          15       me say this, whatever you put in place, if you 

          16       don't proper train the folks that you are going 

          17       to let be responsible for working with folks in a 

          18       community, if they're not properly trained, then 

          19       we're going to have to always have to revisit 

          20       this problem and one of the problems that we have 

          21       here is the training is not adequate. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   We thank you 

          23       and we hear you.  Thank you very much.  Thank 

          24       you. 

          25                    MS. THOMSON:   James Williams, from 




 


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           2       CPAC.  Is he still here?  Debra Falcone, a parent 

           3       from P.S. 146 in Howard Beach. 

           4                    MS. FALCONE:   My name is Debbie 

           5       Falcone. I'm former PTA President of P.S. 146, 

           6       M.S. 202.  I've sat on District Council of 

           7       Presidents.  I have also been a parent and child 

           8       advocate for children and parents within my 

           9       district.  I'm very upset tonight because I feel 

          10       that I want to thank my community school board 

          11       because they have listened to me when I've gone 

          12       to them.  When we had problems at our middle 

          13       school with children coming from all over the 

          14       district, Mrs. Caltapeano sat on the worst 

          15       committee possible phoning and listened to 


          16       parents tear her apart and yet she did the best 

          17       job she could and I'm proud of her for it.  When 

          18       parents needed books, because I've been on the 

          19       PTA a long time, but new people follow you, so 

          20       every year or so you had someone new.  There 

          21       was nothing for us to leave the other PTA's.  

          22       Mrs. Bevilacqua worked with DCP President, worked 

          23       to form a book and held workshops.  When I had 

          24       problems at P.S. 146, I could always call my 

          25       community school board and I have to tell you 




 


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           2       within 24 hours they called me at my job, at my 

           3       home.  I never felt that they didn't care about 

           4       me.  That they didn't care about my school.  If I 

           5       asked them to come to a meeting, they did.  As of 

           6       now, I have yet to see Mr. Braum, because he 

           7       spends two days a week at the Tweed Building.  At 

           8       DCP which I attend faithfully after working a 

           9       full day, helping my children with homework and 

          10       going to multiple meetings throughout the 

          11       district, he's not there.  So now, he sends 

          12       delegates who have no information for us, who 

          13       cannot answer the question, who say they'll get 

          14       back to you but don't, okay, because they don't 

          15       do it.  You give them your work number, you give 

          16       them your home phone number.  I'm still waiting 

          17       for a reply and, you know what, I always felt 

          18       that the elections were poorly done.  They should 

          19       be done at the time of regular elections.  

          20       They're not advertised well and you know what, 

          21       there shouldn't be rollover and I'm very 

          22       concerned that you're taking away my voice. 

          23                    And as far as school leadership 

          24       teams, I've worked on two.  I've worked at the 

          25       gammer school level and at the junior high school 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       level.  The gammer school level, wonderful team.  

           3       Parents and teachers worked well together and yes 

           4       sometimes the principal would try to get her way, 

           5       but parents stood tough and fought.  That's what 

           6       you're supposed to do.  But at the junior high 

           7       school level,  when the parents stood tough, the 

           8       principal didn't give in.  The teachers didn't 

           9       give in and it became a battle of who was going 

          10       to get their way and UFT was a big problem at the 

          11       junior high school level. 

          12                    And so I'm here today because I 

          13       really do want my community school board to stay.  

          14       I appreciate them and I appreciate the parents 

          15       who work on the committees and I think if you're 

          16       going to have representation the parents should 

          17       vote for it.  It shouldn't be people who, I'll 

          18       have to go to the Tweed Building to see or a 

          19       representative who I won't be able to recognize 

          20       on the street.  I want to know who my 

          21       representative is and I'm also the type of person 

          22       who has lobbied on lobby day, who has gone to 

          23       Albany, who has been at Livingston Street 

          24       fighting for funding.  So it's not like I'm an 

          25       inactive parent.  So, I hope you will listen to 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       us and thank you. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, we are 

           4       listening and we thank you for speaking.  Thank 

           5       you very much.  Robin Brown. 

           6                    MS. BROWN:   I have one question.  

           7       Prior to this past year, the superintendent 

           8       attending --  Prior to this past year has the 


           9       superintendent been attending President Council 

          10       meetings?

          11                    MS. FALCONE:   Yes he did.  There 

          12       were times when he couldn't, but he did send his 

          13       Deputy Superintendent or someone who knew the 

          14       information.  Now it's getting to the point we're 

          15       getting people who don't know anything, who have 

          16       to go back to somebody to find it and we're not 

          17       getting the information. 

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          19       again. 

          20                    MS. THOMSON:   Dory Figleola.  Vice

          21       President of I.S. 119 in Queens, District 24. 

          22                    MS. FIGLEOLA:   Hi, good evening.  

          23       Thank you all for being here listening to us 

          24       while I apologize I do not have a written 

          25       statement.  I was not going to speak, but since I 




 


                                                                 374

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       am from District 24, we have had many, many 

           3       problems over the years.  Our school boards 

           4       biggest thing the last three years was how to get 

           5       rid of our superintendent.  So, we had to 

           6       constantly go to school board meeting to listen 

           7       to them bicker when we wanted to learn about 

           8       where could we get money for books, if the city 

           9       doesn't have it.  Why should I have to go to Surf 

          10       Maltese and ask for money?  Why should I go to 

          11       Cohen?  Why should I go to Gallegher?  I 

          12       shouldn't have to do these things.  Our school 

          13       board, if the monies are not there and given to 

          14       our Superintendent to be given out to our 

          15       schools, then these people should be doing it.  I 

          16       went to City Hall.  We went to meeting and had 

          17       chairs thrown at us because they didn't want the 

          18       site built at Grand Avenue.  We the parents did 

          19       that.  I don't recall our school board members 

          20       sitting next to us though. 

          21                    Also, we were the people that have 

          22       gone to fight for so many things in the 

          23       community.  I am on community board 5, I am on 

          24       the board on Forest Hills Civic, I also work. 

          25       But, I will be totally supportive of a board, but 




 


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           2       not as it stands now.  As I would vote for you, I 

           3       want to be able to vote for that person.  I don't 

           4       want the votes rolled over that your little buddy 

           5       gets in with you.  No, they need to have a 

           6       system, they need to have it changed.  We need to 

           7       have more structure.  I am also on leadership.  

           8       But, you listen to UFT and the CSA fighting.  We 

           9       need to have more structure within these systems, 

          10       but we need them and that is all, very short, but 

          11       we need it. 

          12                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          13       very much. Message delivered. 

          14                    MS. THOMSON:   Just one question.  

          15       How would you change, what would you do with 

          16       school boards?  This is recorded by a 

          17       stenographer so you have to answer in the 

          18       microphone. 

          19                    MS. FIGLEOLA:   We need to keep the 

          20       system where you have more parents who have 

          21       children in the schools.  I have a 12 year old.  

          22       Been there, did it, 28 years old up, gone.  Now 

          23       we're back again, so those years that I was not 

          24       in the system, I had no clue what was going on.  

          25       Therefore, my voice should not have been heard if 




 


                                                                 376

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       I'm not there.  I can't even tell you who our 

           3       liaison is for the school and I did see a few 

           4       liaisons going around, but then again, they were 

           5       running for public office, so you know, we were 

           6       campaigning too, unfortunately.  But we need the 

           7       parents to be involved that have the children, 

           8       that know the issues, that know the problems, 

           9       that want to rectify it.  I have a superintendent 

          10       that I can call up and walk into his office and 

          11       speak to him.  We have school board members that 

          12       run away.  So, where is the connection there?  

          13       It's not.  So if you have more parents that are 

          14       involved, that have children in the system that 

          15       know what's going on, you will have a better 

          16       school system because you will have the support 

          17       of those parents. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you. 

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Robin Brown. 

          20                    MS. BROWN:   Just one quick 

          21       question.  If we were to look at a school 

          22       leadership team model, would you support 

          23       increasing the number of parents who currently --

          24                    MS. FIGLEOLA:   Definitely, because 

          25       then you would eliminate a lot of the CSA and UFT 




 


                                                                 377

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       problems and issues and we would be able to 

           3       discuss why we might not have an updated book or 

           4       why we are missing several reams of paper and why 

           5       wasn't this printed and as a PTA, we have to have 

           6       our notices out 10 days before a meeting.  I get 

           7       school board notices sometimes 2 days before.  

           8       So, why are they allowed to do that and misinform 

           9       the parents because now you can't go if you 

          10       perhaps didn't calendar the meeting properly or 

          11       they've changed it, but yet, I have to be, you 

          12       know, Central has to say, Oh no, you get your 

          13       notices out.  I don't want to be in violation, so 

          14       we get our notices out.  So if we have to abide 

          15       by a lot of rules and regulations that come down 

          16       from Central, then there should be a board that 

          17       knows what's going on and how you're being 

          18       regulated.  They get their stiping.  I don't even 

          19       get a thank you sometimes for being PTA.  So, you 

          20       know people have to take the parents, build us 

          21       up, give us more training, and when your kids 

          22       out, so are you. 

          23                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          24       very much. 

          25                    MS. THOMSON:   Assemblyman William 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Scarborough. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Before Mr. 

           4       Scarborough makes his statement, I just want to 

           5       remind everyone, we're trying to confine remarks 

           6       to five minutes best we can.  I just want to 

           7       acknowledge --  Well you came in late.  I just 

           8       wanted to also mention for the benefit of 

           9       everyone here, the enormous amount of hard work 

          10       that you have put in on the Education Committee 

          11       and so many other endeavors in the Assembly, but 

          12       your constituents and your neighbors in Queens 

          13       need to know that you are one of the hardest 

          14       working member of the Education Committee and I 

          15       want to thank you for that. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYMAN SCARBOROUGH:   Well 

          17       thank you for those kind words. 

          18                    MS. THOMSON:   A number of members 

          19       of your Education Task Force came here this 

          20       morning and testified. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYMAN SCARBOROUGH:   I know 

          22       they did, yeah they came with a lot of vigor and 

          23       we are committed to being involved in this.  I 

          24       want to thank you for letting me speak.  As you 

          25       indicated, I'm William Scarborough, the 




 


                                                                 379

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       Assemblyman for the 29th District here in 

           3       Queens.  I'd like to greet my education chair and 

           4       Ms. Thomson and all the members. Needless to say, 

           5       what you guys are doing, I think is of the utmost 

           6       importance.  Steve knows that I tried to get on 

           7       this panel because I think that what is being 

           8       done is going to be extremely important to the 

           9       future of education and of this city.  The people 

          10       who are on here I know to be people of integrity.  

          11       I know you are going to deliberate and come out 

          12       with some good recommendations that we can act on 

          13       next year. 

          14                    In the interest of full disclosure, 

          15       I should mention that I was a member of Community 

          16       School Board 28 for six years, so that's part of 

          17       my background.  You should know, as my colleagues 

          18       do, that I did not vote for the School Governance 

          19       Bill that we passed last year and has led to 

          20       these deliberations and the reason I did not vote 

          21       for it was precisely this issue.  Steve knows and 

          22       Audrey and others know, I thought we made a 

          23       mistake in removing community school boards.  

          24       Certainly, some of them had problems, there's no 

          25       question.  I'm not one of those who said that 




 


                                                                 380

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       everything was hunky- dory.  There was some good 

           3       school boards, there were some bad school boards.  

           4       Just like there are good school leadership teams 

           5       and bad school leadership teams.  I thought they 

           6       could have been reformed.  They could have been 

           7       modified and made to work.  I thought that we 

           8       ended up throwing out the baby with the bath 

           9       water.  I thought that the boards were victims of 

          10       assassination by anecdote.  The worst instances 

          11       of school board malevolence or incompetence or 

          12       whatever, was spread over the papers and in the 

          13       media and so on and were made to be in the mind 

          14       of the public, the norm, when that was not the 

          15       case.  I thought that was a mistake.  But be that 

          16       as it may, it has been done, we need to go 

          17       forward and look at where we're going from here. 

          18                     My druthers would be a return of 

          19       community school boards with modifications.  

          20       Realistically, I know that that's probably not 

          21       going to happen.  So we need to look at what the 

          22       vehicle is going to be.  I think whatever you 

          23       come up with has to be an elected body.  You have 

          24       to give people the opportunity to vote for their 

          25       representatives.  I don't think a body of 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       appointed people is going to have the credibility 

           3       nor will people feel they have the input into 

           4       what's happening with their schools if they don't 

           5       have the right to vote for those people. 

           6                    I believe that that system can work.  

           7       It could be reformed.  I think the original 

           8       system was made to fail by people who were afraid 

           9       of it.  You make the elections in November.  

          10       Steve knows that I had a bill in for many years 

          11       that would make the term four years and have the 

          12       election in that November where it doesn't 

          13       conflict with state or city elections.  There's 

          14       every four years and have the elections then.  

          15       People are used to voting in November.  You know, 

          16       Audrey knows, those of us who labor in Albany and 

          17       Upstate for years, anyone who knows the areas 

          18       outside of New York City, school board elections 

          19       around this state are tremendously participant 

          20       activities.  They can work, they don't work here 

          21       because they were designed to fail.  You let 

          22       people vote on a simple ballot, you don't give 

          23       them this proportional representation and this 

          24       rollover that nobody understands.  You put the 

          25       election in November and people will participate.  




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       I think we absolutely have to do that. 

           3                    Whoever gets involved, I think that 

           4       the body should be a majority of parents, not all 

           5       parents, but certainly the majority of that board 

           6       should be parents who have children in that 

           7       school.  I think there needs to be room for 

           8       people, community people who may not have kids in 


           9       the school, but have a stake in what's going on 

          10       and have expertise to bring to the table. 

          11                    They should be trained every year.  

          12       You can't put people in there and just leave them 

          13       and expect them to have knowledge of what's going 

          14       on.  They should be trained each year in budget, 

          15       they should be trained in curriculum.  The 

          16       problem seems to have been with personnel, so you 

          17       keep them out of personnel, but those areas in 

          18       which they have input, they should be trained, 

          19       they should be required each year to keep up 

          20       their training so that they understand that 

          21       there's a level of professionalism that's 

          22       involved in that board. 

          23                    That same thing goes for the school 


          24       leadership teams.  Just like school boards, there 

          25       are good leadership teams and there are bad 




 


                                                                 383

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       leadership teams.  They have to be trained.  They 

           3       have to be supported.  They have to be made to 

           4       understand that they are an integral and 

           5       important part of the educational system and not 

           6       shunt into the side. 

           7                    As far as the parents.  Now, the 

           8       concern that I have is that we have structured a 

           9       system right now that gives an enormous amount of 

          10       power and influence to the professionals.  I'm 

          11       not one of those who thinks that every 

          12       professional is out to get the parents and so on, 

          13       but we need to have the input from others other 

          14       then the Mayor, the Chancellor, the 

          15       Superintendents, the Principal and so on and so 

          16       forth.  There has to be a role, an important role 

          17       for the parents and for others. 

          18                    Now the other thing I would suggest 

          19       that we codify in this law is that part of the 

          20       principal's evaluation be based on their efforts 

          21       to include parents in the school, just like we 

          22       evaluate them on whether the school is going up, 

          23       you know, all these other things, because it's a 

          24       fact that some schools would prefer not to have 

          25       the parents and shunt them to the side.  I think 




 


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           2       that they should be evaluated based upon their 

           3       efforts to encourage and include parents and 

           4       there should be strict criteria laid out for 

           5       that, so that they have a stake in doing that. 

           6                    The other thing I would suggest and 

           7       I don't know whether it can be codified or not, 

           8       but when you have parent teacher night, and you 

           9       have the parents coming in already, you have a 

          10       captive audience, the school should become an 

          11       open school night.  There should be a whole 

          12       layout, maybe not a night, maybe two or three 

          13       days, where all of the best things about the 

          14       school are on exhibit where parents can come in 

          15       and learn about the things they can do with their 

          16       school, the things that their schools are doing.  

          17       I think that's the way of capturing their 

          18       attention and bringing them into the process. 

          19                    These are some suggestions.  I will 

          20       get them to you in a typed manner.  Hopefully, 

          21       they'll be part of this process and thank you for 

          22       their consideration.  Thank you very much. 

          23                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Any 

          24       questions?  Robin Brown. 

          25                    MS. BROWN:   I just have one 




 


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           2       question.  You talked about an open election and 

           3       the majority being parents.  How would the other 

           4       non-parents get on to this entity?

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN SCARBOROUGH:   Well, 

           6       everybody would be elected.  Let's say you kept 

           7       the nine number board, my suggestion is that 

           8       there would be five designated slots for parents 

           9       with children in the district that would be 

          10       designated for them.  You would have maybe one or 

          11       two designated slots for community people, civic 

          12       leaders, who may not have kids in the district, 

          13       but have an interest in what's going on in the 

          14       district and maybe you want to have a slot for 

          15       somebody who is an educator, not in that 

          16       district, you know, but somebody from another 

          17       area who brings that sort of expertise or

          18       administrative expertise.  So you get a rounded 

          19       body.  I think it's important that the parents 

          20       have the majority vote but you need to have a 

          21       diverse body so that you're getting diverse 

          22       opinions. 

          23                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, I'm 

          24       just going to reiterate what I said at the 

          25       outset, Queens is lucky to have you as one of 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       their representatives. 

           3                    ASSEMBLYMAN SCARBOROUGH:   I should 

           4       get that on tape. 

           5                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   As a matter 

           6       of fact it is. 

           7                    MS. THOMSON:   Deonereen Basteao. 

           8       Deonereen?   Well next is Nat Washington. 

           9                    MR. WASHINGTON:   Good evening 

          10       everyone.  My name is Nat Washington.  I'm a 25 

          11       year resident of District 29, Queens, the father 

          12       of seven, all of whom went to schools in public 

          13       schools in District 29 as you well know.  How are 

          14       you doing?  I'm here tonight to offer you an 

          15       alternative to the things as they are now and 

          16       that is to revisit the way things were before 

          17       1996.  If you look at the statistics of the 


          18       schools since the legislation in '96, things have 

          19       gone down hill.  I know for sure in my district 

          20       in some sense and throughout the city because my 

          21       district is doing better then half of the city 

          22       and it's not where we want it at right now. 

          23                    Now what I'm telling you to do is to 

          24       look into what, the way things were prior to the 

          25       1996 legislation.  If you attend a school board 




 


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           2       meeting now, as many of the people have said 

           3       before, you will not find Assistant Principals, 

           4       Principals, principals out there like they used 

           5       to be out there.  When school boards had an 

           6       opportunity to not select, but a voice in the 

           7       selection of a principal or assistant principal 

           8       and certain administrators, there were more 

           9       attention given to the districts in itself.  

          10       Since that was taken away, they no longer come 

          11       out. 

          12                    Parents feel as though as many of my 

          13       colleagues have said before that the school 

          14       boards with the water down duties that we have, 

          15       in effect, are not as effective as they were 

          16       before because you could have the Superintendent 

          17       jump to the tune of nine people who are jumping 

          18       to the tune of 28,000 in my district.  But, now 

          19       as many of the people before me have said, 

          20       Superintendents would never ever miss a school 

          21       board meeting in the past, you know.  Now, a bid 

          22       on ask to be excused, some of them tell you I'm 

          23       not going to be there.  I have a meeting at the 

          24       Tweed Building or someplace else that's more 

          25       important.  Then you find out later on they were 




 


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           2       at some civic meeting. 

           3                    However, the thing, why I'm here is 

           4       to offer a solution to what you guys perceive to 


           5       be a problem.  I don't believe there's a problem 

           6       with school boards as Councilman Scarborough, 

           7       Assemblyman Scarborough said before.  You know I 

           8       voted for you.  He represents me in Albany, of 

           9       course I live in his district.  But, you need to 

          10       have elected, locally elected people, be it 

          11       parents --  My board, I mean, it's insulting at 

          12       times being President at 29, coming to forums 

          13       I've been to and have a question asked, what do 

          14       you think about parents being school board 

          15       members?  I'm a father of seven, all of my kids 


          16       except the one that's in high school, have 

          17       college education, higher degrees, lawyers, 

          18       doctors, all came out of 29.  So it's insulting 

          19       for a panel to ask should we have parents as 

          20       school board members.  Every member on my board 

          21       are parents. 

          22                    All of them, the majority except one 

          23       have kids that go to schools in District 29.  So 

          24       they have a vested interest.  And then you get 

          25       legislation and regulations from 110, used to be, 




 


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           2       to say that if you are a parent involved in your 

           3       school as a parent, like the young lady that was 


           4       on the school leadership team, if your a school 

           5       board member I'm going to take you out of the 

           6       equation.  When I became a member of the school 

           7       board and my wife was President of the PTA, then 

           8       they put in some rules and regulations as he seen 

           9       fitted.  The Chancellor's rules and regulations 

          10       sometimes are out of line, as you well know. 

          11                    Okay, we need to have local, locally 

          12       elected people to represent those on a local 

          13       basis.  You cannot --  District 26 borders 29.  

          14       The situations are totally different. From block 

          15       to block.  From school to school.  From cluster 

          16       to cluster.  So you cannot, and I have nothing 

          17       against appointed positions, because your 

          18       position was appointed and so is Evita's now, 

          19       that was always an appointed position.  But to 

          20       remove a local, local elected officials such as 

          21       we are is wrong and someone mentioned, it's 

          22       taxation without representation because we're not 

          23       only advocates for the students that are there.  

          24       We're advocates for teachers, principals, 

          25       superintendents, community businesses, churches, 




 


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           2       houses of worship.  We represent everyone. 

           3                    If I showed you a list of the things 

           4       that I have to do this week alone, the things we 

           5       do without compensation and the question is why 

           6       would you want to remove something that's working 

           7       in most cases.  As someone said, in some of the 

           8       worst cases and none of them I heard about in 

           9       Queens, there have never been a school board 

          10       member arrested for anything.  So when they say 

          11       that the kids are not learning, we implement 

          12       policies and priorities for the Superintendents, 

          13       for the teachers and principals to implement.  We 

          14       do not teach.  I believe the Chancellor now has a 

          15       grip on what's happening.  If you have a lousy 

          16       principal in the school, then the school goes 

          17       down.  The focus should be put in that school 

          18       with the principal in the classroom.  But right 

          19       now, like everything else, you have to focus on 

          20       something that's (inaudible), the school board, 

          21       let's get rid of that and take the focus with the 

          22       UFT's billions of dollars that they have to lobby 

          23       removal of school boards.  Who doesn't benefit? 

          24                    The only group of folks in the whole 

          25       equation, and I'll just be one more minute 




 


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           2       please, that do not get paid are school board 

           3       members, so you're taking away something that 

           4       we're doing for the good and welfare of our 

           5       communities.  That's all.  Assemblyman 

           6       (inaudible) can tell you, I belong to no club in 

           7       my neighborhood.  I've been an independent since 

           8       '95.  Every year I run for school board, the 

           9       times when I did was because of me and my record 

          10       as a parent and that's it.  School leadership 

          11       teams as you well know, was it three or four 

          12       years ago you visited his office, we told you it 

          13       doesn't work.  You knew this before you went to 

          14       Albany that school leadership teams throughout 

          15       the district don't work. 

          16                    The best district, so-called best 

          17       district in the system, District 26, Sharon 

          18       Maurer told you in her district it do not work, 

          19       so that's no the thing to do.  As Brown said from 

          20       27, Mr. Brown, I've done eight years, but I want 

          21       to ensure that this process remain in place 

          22       because it was put there for a reason.  There's a 

          23       reason why you have the voting the way it is.  

          24       There's a reason why school boards were put in 

          25       place in the first place.  So without taking any 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       more time of the councils time and I will type 

           3       something out because as someone else said, I 

           4       must comment on this, the process for getting to 

           5       this microphone needs to be changed because you 

           6       inhibit folks who are coming up and we did it 

           7       years ago and it wasn't meant for more 

           8       participation, it was meant to pull it back.  

           9       Give me 10 copies of this, fax it here, fax it 

          10       there and then you can speak for three minutes.  

          11       I think it's wrong.  Thank you for your time. 

          12                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          13       very much. 

          14                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   I know, I 

          15       just have to ask you, are you comfortable with 

          16       the voting now of the rollover system?

          17                    MR. WASHINGTON:   The voting as it 

          18       is now, I understand why it was put in place, but 

          19       it's complex and it should be made simpler.  The 

          20       Assemblyman, lay it out in a way that you can 

          21       have parent participation, elected parents, but 

          22       as you know, you must have continuity.  You 

          23       cannot learn in a year to work in those school 

          24       board.  By the time the first two years are gone 

          25       by, you're just getting a grip on all the things 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       that you need to know and a lot of these people 

           3       that come to the microphone on the legislative 

           4       level, most of them never attended school board 

           5       meetings that I've seen, and I've never missed a 

           6       board meeting since '95.  Okay, so you must know, 

           7       first of all, what the school boards do, you 

           8       know, before you can say let's eliminate them.  

           9       Thank you.  Anything else?

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 

          11       very much Mr. Washington, we appreciate your 

          12       being here very much. 

          13                    MS. THOMSON:   Frank Baluccio, 

          14       Democratic District Leader.  Is he here Audrey?  

          15       Do you know who Frank Baluccio is?  Is he here. 

          16                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Oh, he was 

          17       here before.  He left, he must have left a 

          18       statement.  They're the one's that brought Joe 

          19       Addabo's statement. 

          20                    MS. THOMSON:   Tom Lowenhaf, Vice 

          21       Chair, Community Board 3, Queens.  Good evening. 


          22                    MR. LOWENHAF:   Good evening.  My 

          23       two children attended New York City public 

          24       schools from K through 12.  During that time I 

          25       was an active parent and member of P.S. 69, 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       active Parent Association Member at P.S. 69 and 

           3       P.S. 122 here in Queens.  I served in many 

           4       capacities and I served on several committees at 

           5       community school district 30. 

           6                    The day my second son completed his 

           7       work was a joyous day.  He graduated, obviously.  

           8       But also because I no longer had to involve 

           9       myself with the morass that was the New York City 

          10       Board of Education.  It was just a pleasure not 

          11       to have anything to do with it and I think what 

          12       the Legislature has been doing has been 

          13       excellent. 

          14                    For the past decade I've been a 

          15       member of community board, I'll call it community 

          16       planning board tonight, 3, covering Jackson 

          17       Heights, East Elmhurst and North Corona 

          18       neighborhoods.  District 3 has a diverse 

          19       community, is a diverse community of 160, 000 as 

          20       per the recent census.  I am currently, I am 

          21       currently the Vice Chair. 


          22                   Chapter 70, Section 2801 of the City 

          23       Charter lists 21 areas of responsibility for the 

          24       community board.  The first is the catchall, it 

          25       says the board shall consider the needs of the 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       district which it serves.  In fulfilling this 

           3       mandate, Board 3 has set up 16 committees with 

           4       both board and public numbers.  We have an 

           5       airport committee, a budget committee, business 

           6       development, communications, health, housing, 

           7       landmark, land use, parks, public safety, 

           8       sanitation, traffic, youth services and we have 

           9       an education committee. 


          10                    We've been blessed over the past 

          11       decade with strong local leadership that enabled 

          12       our community to have five entirely new schools 

          13       constructed and additions added to three others.  

          14       Our community board and especially it's education 

          15       committee was an active participant in long and 

          16       arduous task of identifying the need, locating 

          17       the land and overseeing the construction and 

          18       zoning of these schools. 

          19                   I'm here today to suggest that the 

          20       community boards be assigned part of their 

          21       governance responsibility.  They currently exist 

          22       in the neighborhood, there are 59 of them in 

          23       operation, they're close to the people, there are 

          24       59 of them versus 32.  They have very 

          25       identifiable boundaries.  They have meetings at 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       which the council member, the board member, the 

           3       community board members are there, the 50 

           4       community board members.  There are 

           5       representatives or actual council members are 

           6       there.  There's a representative always from the 

           7       Borough President's Office, there are Assembly 

           8       members there or their representatives.  It's a 

           9       true community forum where issues are discussed 

          10       and when I was active on in the schools, I was 

          11       always surprised and disappointed that I'd see 

          12       the two different worlds.  One where sort of 

          13       everything went on that dealt with our community 

          14       and a second world where just the schools were 

          15       dealt with and very poorly as I said earlier.  

          16       So, I know community boards, there's nothing 

          17       wonderful about them.  They're a reasonable way 

          18       to, a reasonable part of the governance process 

          19       but I think that they can be improved and I think 


          20       if the educational issues are included in there 

          21       they will benefit our community.  Thank you. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   We thank you 

          23       very, just one moment sir. 

          24                    MR. CLAYTON:   Just one, just one, 

          25       just one point of clarification. 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Mr. Clayton. 

           3                    MR. CLAYTON:   Thank you Steve.  

           4       This whole point of clarification.  What's an 

           5       airport committee?

           6                    MR. LOWENHAF:   When Laguardia 

           7       Airport is your neighbor, you have an airport 

           8       committee. 

           9                    MS. THOMSON:   This is Queens. 

          10                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Now Earnest, 

          11       you know you are in Queens.  Okay. 

          12                    MS. THOMSON:   Does Earnest know 

          13       what the mainland is?  Alright.  Doris Destoso, 

          14       Vice President of P.S. 177 in District 75. 

          15                    MS. DESTOSO:   Good evening, my name 

          16       is Doris Destoso and I stand on the Board of 

          17       Director's of QUSAC, a service agency that treats 

          18       autism.  I'm also the Vice President of P.S. 177 

          19       in District 75.  My colleagues had to go 

          20       home,they have many children.  I have two and I 

          21       also am Co- Chair of my school leadership team, 

          22       very successfully along side my Principal elect. 

          23                    I came tonight to learn what this 

          24       process is because I never heard of it before and 

          25       I've been Co-Chair of my school leadership team 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       for two years and I'm now experienced in three 

           3       school leadership teams, very successful 

           4       experience except for the first one, the year I 

           5       first started. I'm here today as mother because I 

           6       want to represent my eight year old son who is 

           7       autistic, cannot speak, and he is a student in 

           8       District 75.  For those who don't know, District 

           9       75 serves the severely disabled in all five 

          10       boroughs and not the learning disabled, but it's 

          11       still important to understand.  In the media and 

          12       in the Chancellors Office and in the Mayors 

          13       Office, they seem to keep confusing the two, so 

          14       I'd like to clarify it up.  They serve, District 

          15       75 serves the autistic, the medically fragile, 

          16       developmentally disabled, multiply handicapped, 

          17       and the emotionally disturbed. 

          18                    Like tens of thousands of, I'm also 

          19       speaking on behalf of the tens of thousands of 

          20       children in New York City who now are being 

          21       diagnosed as autistic or have other developmental 

          22       disabilities and I'm here to say they need caring 

          23       parents and friends to speak for them since they 

          24       cannot.  For the many years of the existence of 

          25       school boards, the severely disabled have never 




 


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           2       had a school board who understands this 

           3       population or represents them in any way that can 

           4       be helpful.  Only their parents, individually, 

           5       one by one have represented them case by case. 

           6                  As we know, there is power in numbers 

           7       and many of the parents of District 75 children 

           8       have had no central body to turn to except 

           9       District 75.  We have a tireless and dedicated 

          10       Superintendent who we believe has been very 

          11       effective working with us.  Now last week, there 

          12       was a report issued, a so-called analysis of 

          13       findings approved by Bloomberg from the Citizen's 

          14       Board Commission.  They recommend completely do 

          15       away with the entire entity that has ever 

          16       understood our children.  That has found and 

          17       provided the scientifically proven therapies and 

          18       methodologies by Harvard, various Universities, 

          19       Princeton throughout the world, this district has 

          20       specifically approved and used methods that have 

          21       finally helped a lot of our children and to make 

          22       tremendous progress because they can learn. 

          23                    Why do they recommend the dismaning 

          24       of this district?  Because they believe the city 

          25       can save dollars if general education districts 




 


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           2       can observe a learning disabled.  Well I beg to 

           3       differ.  Learning disabled does not equal 

           4       severely disabled.  It must be clarified.  There 

           5       are specific successful ways to reach our 

           6       children that general educators do not learn in 

           7       one college course or one week long conference 

           8       which seems to be the solution they're coming up 

           9       with.  I also happen to be a certified ESL 

          10       teacher and I've had to delay entry into the work 

          11       force because I'm advocating for my child and 

          12       providing the direction and wisdom of what it 

          13       takes to educate these children to reach a status 

          14       of success in our society. 

          15                    So what I propose is this.  I 

          16       strongly urge this governance committee to create 

          17       a special school board of District 75 parents, 

          18       inclusion parents, educators and service 

          19       providers who sincerely care about our children 

          20       because most of them do not.  Most people do not.  

          21       And to have a voice in the community where both 

          22       they are educated and especially where they live, 

          23       which is almost never the same.  So, I think you 

          24       tonight. 

          25                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Thank you 




 


                                                                 401

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       very much. 

           3                    MS. THOMSON:   Thank you very much.  

           4       Karen Blanding, President of NAACP, Corona/East 

           5       Elmhurst Branch. 

           6                    MS. BLANDING:   Good evening.  Yes I 

           7       come here today to speak as an activist an a 

           8       person that has sat incidentally on the C-37 

           9       process in District 24 and I'm a President of a 

          10       Branch of the NAACP.  The NAACP already has a 

          11       call for action in education.  I come to speak on 

          12       the governance of our school system here in New 

          13       York City District 1.  I state the need for some 

          14       group to represent, and advocate for all 

          15       children, parents and communities.  Over the 

          16       years, we have experienced some benefits of the 

          17       community school boards and experienced reason 

          18       for a change. 

          19                   The NAACP has a long history in it's 

          20       commitment to the successful completion of a 

          21       quality education for all students throughout the 

          22       city and the nation.  We strongly believe that no 

          23       child should be left behind.  The New York State 

          24       Conference of NAACP Branches has developed an 

          25       Adopt a School Program which has met with success 




 


                                                                 402

           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       in some of the districts here in New York City. 

           3                   The task force should consider 

           4       developing a format inclusive of a parent 

           5       advisory board, along with youth, community and 

           6       business representatives that would give an input 

           7       on curriculum, funding and to mediate of issues 

           8       pertaining to schools within their jurisdiction, 

           9       meeting with the Superintendents on a monthly 

          10       basis.  The parents should be the one's that make 

          11       the agenda.  Parents should be selected by 

          12       district PTA's and President Council's or by 

          13       demonstration of outstanding educational 

          14       involvement.  Youth should be selected from high 

          15       schools, CUNY schools, selected by their peers 

          16       and would add a fresh view on what is needed in 

          17       education.  The NAACP Corona-East Elmhurst 

          18       Branch, we have a very, very active Youth Council 

          19       and these young people are indeed, they're 

          20       concerned with the educational system.  Our 

          21       president would have been here today to the Youth 

          22       Council, but he is in SUNY schools and gets out 

          23       nine o'clock this evening.  Community 

          24       representation should come from active 

          25       organizations that have a proven track record for 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       education without political influence.  The 

           3       business community should develop a program 

           4       similar to SCORE, we are sure their knowledge 

           5       could be useful and those elected would serve a 

           6       period of one year. 

           7                    And being that we are strong 

           8       advocates of voting rights and civil rights, we 

           9       feel we must keep a voting process in place. 

          10                        And reform is necessary for the 

          11       productive future of education in New York City.  

          12       Accountability is a must for the success of our 

          13       young people today that are our future leaders of 

          14       tomorrow.  The road to educational success, 

          15       ensuring that we leave no one behind must include 

          16       parents, youth, community and business 

          17       representatives.  Thank you. 

          18                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well, we 

          19       thank you.  I just want to observe something that 

          20       I did earlier today, there was another President 

          21       of one of the local chapters of NAACP and I just 

          22       wanted to repeat what I said to him that we all 

          23       acknowledge with great understanding, the hard 

          24       work of the NAACP for so many years going all the 

          25       way back to Brown v. Board of Education nearly 50 




 


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           1       12/12/02              School Board Governance

           2       years ago.  A guy by the name of Thurgood 

           3       Marshall who led that effort and all of the hard 

           4       work and effective work that the NAACP has done 

           5       in education, in voting rights issues and civil 

           6       rights.  So, we're delighted that you could share 

           7       your time with us and share your statement with 

           8       us and we thank you for your work and the work of 

           9       the NAACP. 

          10                    MS. BLANDING:   Thank you. 

          11                    MS. THOMSON:   I think our last 

          12       speaker is Nancy Ramos, a member of Community 

          13       School Board 28 and a parent.  Nancy.  She was 


          14       here.  She was just here.  I just turned in --  

          15       Did she walk out the door there?  She was right 

          16       here.  Okay. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Well while we 

          18       are checking to see whether Nancy has been able 

          19       to stay, let me just make mention of the fact 

          20       that these hearings will continue.  They will 

          21       continue beginning next Thursday in the Bronx at 

          22       Hostos Community College.  The schedule of time 

          23       will be about the same, ten o'clock in the 

          24       morning until about four o'clock and then six 

          25       o'clock in the evening until whenever.  Until we 




 


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           2       don't have anyone left to speak to us and then we 

           3       will be reconvening these hearings on Monday, 

           4       January the 6th on Staten Island at the Petredees 

           5       Complex Building K which is 715 Ocean Terrace and 

           6       then finally on Thursday, January the 16th, we 

           7       shall be in Brooklyn in the Brooklyn Borough Hall 

           8       in their courtroom.  Even though these hearings 

           9       are separated one for every borough, you don't 

          10       have to be from the Bronx to testify in the 

          11       Bronx, so anyone who wants to come to the Bronx 

          12       or come to Brooklyn or Staten Island, they will 

          13       be most welcome.  We will try to accommodate as 

          14       many people as we can. Audrey. 

          15                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Yes.  I was 

          16       handed this petition from some of the parents in 

          17       School District 27 and I would like to submit it 

          18       as testimony.  Do I give that to you Steve?

          19                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   It will be so 

          20       done. 

          21                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   Thank you. 

          22                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   So, on behalf 

          23       of Terri Thomson and myself and all of the 

          24       members of this task force, first of all we 

          25       appreciate the hospitality shown to us by the 




 


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           2       Borough President of Queens, Helen Marshall, her 

           3       staff and all of the residents of Queens who have 

           4       taken their time on, I know short notice to be 

           5       with us, to inform us of your views about what we 

           6       need to do to make public education better and 

           7       more effective at the community school district 

           8       level and the school level.  We have listened, we 

           9       will continue to listen.  Our recommendations in 

          10       the final analysis will be formed and informed by 

          11       much of the testimony that we hear in all five 

          12       boroughs.  Does someone wish to add something?  

          13       Yes, Audrey. 

          14                    ASSEMBLYWOMAN PHEFFER:   I'm sorry, 

          15       Steve, I was just advised that that petition was 


          16       from P.S. 155 in School District 27.  Thank you. 

          17                    ASSEMBLYMAN SANDERS:   Okay, Terri, 

          18       do you have anything to add?

          19                    MS. THOMSON:   No, thank you all for 

          20       joining us tonight have a safe trip home. 

          21                    (Time noted 9:15 p.m.)

          22       

          23       

          24       

          25       




 


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           2       

           3                            C E R T I F I C A T E

           4        

           5                    I, Frank Gray, do hereby state that 

           6             I attended at the time and place 

           7             above-mentioned and took a stenographic 

           8             record of the proceedings in the 

           9             above-entitled matter, and that the 

          10             foregoing is a true and correct copy of the 

          11             same and the whole thereof, according to the 

          12             best of my ability and belief. 

          13             

          14             

          15                           ___________________________

          16             

          17                                   FRANK GRAY

          18       

          19       

          20             Dated:  December 12, 2002

          21       

          22       

          23       

          24       

          25       






			

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